RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #11

[eminence]

Kobe's impact being lower due to Shaq being there means those years don't count, but KG is worse because his impact was teammate dependent (note, still fine by Kobe's standards, but below KG's own higher standards), and y'all can't even begin to see the hypocrisy in that?

I'm done in here, the mental gymnastics are too much.

[Senior]

It gets old fast that people ignore evidence and keep generalizing. It's important to note that KG's team was worse, because the fact that Kobe's teams made the playoffs in 06 and 07 and KG's teams didn't is being used as an argument for Kobe. That's why the distinction in supporting casts is important to point out.

Nobody is really addressing the Phil Jackson vs Dwyane Casey aspect, because nobody really can. There's no way to pretend like that wasn't a significant difference that had nothing to do with either KG or Kobe. That explains the difference in wins way more than Kobe simply being a much better player than KG at the time.

when people have to go on and on for ages about how just how bad his teammates were it's just boring, although I'm not one of those guys using that playoffs point against him so maybe this whole thing doesn't apply to me.

also, with Phil vs Casey - I feel that the coaching aspect on teams is really, really tough to nail down. What specifically did Phil do for the 06 Lakers that added a significant advantage to his team? What did Dwane Casey do poorly for the Wolves? I don't think Casey is in Phil's league, but unless we can specifically point to things that a coach did for his players for better or for worse (for example, Scott Brooks inexplicably playing Perkins in the 2012 Finals), then it's not fair to assume that one guy had elite coaching and the other had trash. maybe you can credit the strategy LA used vs Phoenix to Phil but it's still on the players to execute that strategy. and that was in the playoffs so it had no bearing on the RS anyway.

fwiw I think Phil's strengths show more with talented teams, not weaker ones. his strengths involve getting elite talent to play as a team. none of his dynasties had perfect chemistry guys like Tim Duncan - they were guys like MJ/Pippen/Rodman or Shaq/Kobe. compare that to someone like Pop who wouldn't even deal with a guy like Rodman - but his strengths are getting the best out of role players and putting them in situations to succeed. rebirthoftheM has mentioned that Phil simply handed the keys over to Kobe in those 05-07 years - has anyone challenged that?

don't really know when this thread is wrapping up but looking forward to West vs Oscar - assuming KG gets in before either of them.

[wojoaderge]

None of his Boston teams had him as the go-to scorer.

I remember watching the 4th quarter of the 7th game of the '10 Finals and wondering why they weren't setting him up for a shot at all. Maybe he was too old or injured by then.

[rebirthoftheM]

not really sure if I'm the only one who feels this way but when pages and pages are devoting to explaining how bad someone's teammates were it gets old fast. at some point there's only so bad a supporting cast can be and the constant arguing about who sucks more is just a waste of time.

I think it'd be less of a waste of time, as you noted elsewhere, if folks actually raised substantive reasons (i.e. by references to game-tape, skill-set and team fit) on why X supporting cast was worse than Y supporting cast. But here we have infatuation with names and primitive bballreference based analysis. Which is unfortunate, because something as simple as Luke Walton being in contract year in 07, and really seeing a benefit in his 3 ball game because of the change to the synthetic ball in early 06-07, only to see his play start tumbling down with the return to the old ball and some injuries, will not turn up on bball reference. Honestly it appears some people commenting here neither saw Kobe or KG play during those years. Hell, nobody has of yet been to give a brief breakdown on KG's defensive play in 05-07, much less Kobe's mid 00's offense. There were some people on this forum who doubted that peak Kobe was receiving absurd attention at all times. Apparently Laker fans were lying about how teams, even the elites, were desperately trying to get the ball out of Kobe's hands, to the point of giving Kobe's teammates wide open shots on the regular.

Hell, I hear someone reference Brian Cook as an example of the relative better talent Kobe was playing with. The same Brian Cook whose only noticeable strength as a 6-9 power forward was hitting open shots, mostly created by the heavy attention Kobe was receiving, with his weaknesses ranging from having no post game, to zero driving and slashing game, to awful slow footed rotations. But again of course, one wouldn't know this if their reference is stat pages.

In reality, if there was any gap between Kobe's 06 Squad and KG's mid 00 Minny squads, it was not that large (and I still contend only KG's 2007 Minny Squad can actually be said to be worse). It is just that 06 Kobe turned in an offensive year for the ages, which made up for it. He also saved the Lakers injury riddled season in 07. This is the benefit of having a high volume, efficient scorer like Kobe. He can turn around the fortunes of his teams very quickly by going into super sayin' mode.

.

You have had problems with RAPM and KG for 05-07, but how do you've interpret the dramatic drop off for Kobe in 04-05?

Will focus on ORAPM, since DRAPM stuff confounds me.

Kobe was quite simply an inferior player in 04 and 05. This is very apparent even via eye test. 04 Kobe was not at all in the best of physical shape. Came off the shoulder surgery, and had extra support on the shoulder for stretches of that year. Missed 15+ games IIRC. His lateral quickness was not there as he didn't train at all in the summer. Then there was Colorado, Shaq, and the 2004 defensive climate which damaged the stocks of pretty much every elite perimeter player who created for themselves off the dribble (see Tmac, Pierce, VC, Iverson etc... all had down years IIRC, and it is not a coincidence). He just wasn't the same dude he was in 2003.

05 was another down year. Multiple factors at play here, including Kobe putting on too much weight, which was said to have caused his Plantar Fasciitis (same ish Duncan had in 06). Kobe's jumper was broken for large stretches of that year, and his handling looked much more inferior. Really looked like he spent the summer only working on his body, instead of his skill-set. There's also the fact that it was his first non-triangle year since 1999 as a #1. Might be that he didn't adjust quickly enough (see 2012 as an example too). FYI Kobe's numbers and efficiency numbers returned to more 'normal' kobe standards once Rudy T resigned and Frank Hamblen ran the triangle offense.

So overall, Kobe's ORAPM stuff in 04 & 05 don't surprise me. He simply wasn't Kobe-esque in those years. Which should defs count against him in an analysis of his prime.

This of course differs to KG's situation as there appears to be no major decline in his play in 05, and 06 cannot be said to be inferior to pre 2003 KG.

[rebirthoftheM]

So, I read that Garnett's box score production fell apart in the playoffs, which is a really odd thing to read, because now instead of just his TS% going down, apparently everything declined? And it declined to the point that he no longer looks like a superstar? How did that argument come about?

Who said he was no longer a superstar? The point was, his box score stuff did fall of, particularly when you consider the quality of team defenses he was facing (spoiler: 01-10 Kobe faced on average much more difficult defensive teams in the PS). With KG 99-04, we see his points drop by 1.5 (around 28.5 per 100) and his efficiency and drop by around 2.3%, to the point where he was actually below league average in the PS (something like 1% below leave average). That is quite simply awful I'm sorry to say. Some of us do indeed value scoring and KG's below league average displays do not impress. And then there's the drop in blocks, steals, drop in PER, BPM etc.

Also, you might want to look at KG's two extended PS runs- 04 & 08. This is the best judge of KG in the PS, as 1st rounders can skew stats (such as Kobe's 06 1st round stats v the Suns. Kobe torched the suns all year but scaled back everything to get dudes like Kwame Brown the ball, so they could be inspired to play D lol).

KG's decline in 04 & 08 PS is quite pronounced in the box score department. His 04 performance saw a massive decline.

Please don't come back with +/- because it is not relevant for these purposes, and also, it is is quite clear, not everyone values KG's defensive +/-, and quite generally his +/- like you guys do.

[Joao Saraiva]

None of his Boston teams had him as the go-to scorer.

I remember watching the 4th quarter of the 7th game of the '10 Finals and wondering why they weren't setting him up for a shot at all. Maybe he was too old or injured by then.

Actually Doc Rivers deserves a lot of the blame for what happened in that 4th.

Celtics were keeping their production while posting up Rasheed Wallace.

Then Kobe had foul trouble and Doc decided to play PnR with Rondo and Pierce all the time, with Rondo trying to attack Kobe. That didn't work at all, as expected...

[trex_8063]

Thru post #164 (25 votes, requires 13 for majority):

Kobe - 11 (andrewww, Arman Tanzarian, ardee, Hornet Mania, Joao Saraiva, JordansBulls, mdonnelly1989, mischievous, oldschooled, scabbarista, Tesla)
Garnett - 7 (trex_8063, micahclay, LABird, kayess, drza, Doctor MJ, Dr Positivity)
Karl - 2 (janmagn, Winsome Gerbil)
Erving - 2 (Pablo Novi, BasketballFan7)
Mikan - 2 (penbeast0, wojoaderge)
West - 1 (RCM88x)

The one vote for West transfers to Kobe (bringing him to 12; still no majority). Karl, Erving, and Mikan would then ALL have to be eliminated; two of those become "ghost votes", one goes to Garnett, three go to Kobe, bringing count to:

Kobe - 15
Garnett - 8

Calling it for Kobe. Will have the next up shortly...

[penbeast0]

You can find a black mark in terms of "team dynamics" for almost every ATG save for perhaps Duncan/Russell/Bird. Kobe has his faults like most other ATGs, but none of them are under the scrutiny that he suffers from.

... and of course Bob Pettit, who was so respected that even the referees called him Mr. Pettit. Haven't heard anything negative about West, Dirk, or the Admiral either.

[2klegend]

People often rave about Kareem and Duncan longevity but little do people know the true definition of real longevity the like of Karl Malone. He played 99% of every available NBA season games in every single season of his career, except the last one '04. He played every game at a high level to boost. A 2x MVP in the 90s and never missed the playoff.

1st: Karl Malone
2nd: D-Rob