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Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline

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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1701 » by Cutter » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:44 pm

I recently saw a thread going around about which teams have the best "core". Some had the Suns ranked as the 2nd best core, others had Suns as low as the #4 core. I don't have the Suns core ranked at all as I don't believe the Suns even have a core. The Suns have a collection of very young players, of which hardly any project to be more than serviceable rotation players and more than likely bench contributors. The term core implies you have group of young players who, if properly developed, can lead your team to the playoffs and eventually a conference championship appearance or finals appearance.

Outside of Booker we do not have a single young player who has yet to show he can be a #1,#2 or #3 contributor on a top 5 team in the NBA. And I'm not yet convinced that Booker has the talent to be a top player on a championship team.

I say the statements above as a Suns homer. I always hope for the best from front office decisions, and always root for our young players to develop into all stars. However at the end of this recent few years of tanking I am not seeing much to give me hope that we are going to be relevant in the next 5 years.

Maybe Devin Booker and Josh Jackson develop into those top players that every top 5 team needs. Rant over, let me slip my Suns homer glasses back on, they fit me very well. :D
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1702 » by NTB » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:49 pm

Cutter wrote:I recently saw a thread going around about which teams have the best "core". Some had the Suns ranked as the 2nd best core, others had Suns as low as the #4 core. I don't have the Suns core ranked at all as I don't believe the Suns even have a core. The Suns have a collection of very young players, of which hardly any project to be more than serviceable rotation players and more than likely bench contributors. The term core implies you have group of young players who, if properly developed, can lead your team to the playoffs and eventually a conference championship appearance or finals appearance.

Outside of Booker we do not have a single young player who has yet to show he can be a #1,#2 or #3 contributor on a top 5 team in the NBA. And I'm not yet convinced that Booker has the talent to be a top player on a championship team.

I say the statements above as a Suns homer. I always hope for the best from front office decisions, and always root for our young players to develop into all stars. However at the end of this recent few years of tanking I am not seeing much to give me hope that we are going to be relevant in the next 5 years.

Maybe Devin Booker and Josh Jackson develop into those top players that every top 5 team needs. Rant over, let me slip my Suns homer glasses back on, they fit me very well. :D


So Philadelphia has a core besides Embiid? (which played 30ish games) Simmons and Fultz both played 0 NBA games.

Lakers has a core?
Kings?
Denver?

Only Bucks, Celtics and Portland made the playoffs with their "core".
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1703 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:03 pm

NavLDO wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:To follow up on my post about team building one area I think my mindset has changed some of the past few years is I understand more why some teams who are winning but seem to be a bit "treadmilly" don't just blow it up. Take the Raptors for example they spent a ton of money this summer on a team that realistically isn't going to get past the Cavs short of some catastrophic injuries. But hell they are a 50+ win team so I get why they don't just burn it down and start over. It's hard to get back to on the mountain top. I was definitely guilty of saying the Suns should have blown up the team in those later Nash years. And maybe they should have but I understand more now why they didn't.


They are making moves, though. They shouldn't 'blow up' a winning team; just try different things to be competitive, like trading for Ibaka, drafting a top 10 pick last year, drafting a top 5 talent with injury history, but if ever get's that settled, they've got a blue-chip player. They have DeRozan, and Valanciunas...well, maybe you are right...they should blow it up...

...trade Val to us for Chriss, and our 2 draftpicks next year, and a young combo-guard who just needs a change of scenery in Knight...seems fair to me! :D


What is your deal with Val? Raps fans are not particularly high on him and some want to dump him. I don't think he's really worth his contract. I thought I saw an earlier variation with Chriss and Warren both? I wouldn't want us to trade a 2nd rounder for him. Their forum has a thread about moving him to the bench in favor of Poeltl...he is not particularly good defensively and isn't that good of a rim protector. I mean he would be an upgrade in what we have in some ways but not someone I'd give up picks or young players for.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1704 » by TeamTragic » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:05 pm

NTB wrote:
Cutter wrote:I recently saw a thread going around about which teams have the best "core". Some had the Suns ranked as the 2nd best core, others had Suns as low as the #4 core. I don't have the Suns core ranked at all as I don't believe the Suns even have a core. The Suns have a collection of very young players, of which hardly any project to be more than serviceable rotation players and more than likely bench contributors. The term core implies you have group of young players who, if properly developed, can lead your team to the playoffs and eventually a conference championship appearance or finals appearance.

Outside of Booker we do not have a single young player who has yet to show he can be a #1,#2 or #3 contributor on a top 5 team in the NBA. And I'm not yet convinced that Booker has the talent to be a top player on a championship team.

I say the statements above as a Suns homer. I always hope for the best from front office decisions, and always root for our young players to develop into all stars. However at the end of this recent few years of tanking I am not seeing much to give me hope that we are going to be relevant in the next 5 years.

Maybe Devin Booker and Josh Jackson develop into those top players that every top 5 team needs. Rant over, let me slip my Suns homer glasses back on, they fit me very well. :D


So Philadelphia has a core besides Embiid? (which played 30ish games) Simmons and Fultz both played 0 NBA games.

Lakers have a core?
Kings?
Denver?

Only Bucks, Celtics and Portland made the playoffs with their "core".


The most overrated term in basketball:

CORE
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1705 » by Cutter » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:09 pm

NTB wrote:
Cutter wrote:I recently saw a thread going around about which teams have the best "core". Some had the Suns ranked as the 2nd best core, others had Suns as low as the #4 core. I don't have the Suns core ranked at all as I don't believe the Suns even have a core. The Suns have a collection of very young players, of which hardly any project to be more than serviceable rotation players and more than likely bench contributors. The term core implies you have group of young players who, if properly developed, can lead your team to the playoffs and eventually a conference championship appearance or finals appearance.

Outside of Booker we do not have a single young player who has yet to show he can be a #1,#2 or #3 contributor on a top 5 team in the NBA. And I'm not yet convinced that Booker has the talent to be a top player on a championship team.

I say the statements above as a Suns homer. I always hope for the best from front office decisions, and always root for our young players to develop into all stars. However at the end of this recent few years of tanking I am not seeing much to give me hope that we are going to be relevant in the next 5 years.

Maybe Devin Booker and Josh Jackson develop into those top players that every top 5 team needs. Rant over, let me slip my Suns homer glasses back on, they fit me very well. :D


So Philadelphia has a core besides Embiid? (which played 30ish games) Simmons and Fultz both played 0 NBA games.

Lakers has a core?
Kings?
Denver?

Only Bucks, Celtics and Portland made the playoffs with their "core".

IMO Lakers do not have a core. They have Brandon Ingram who had a terrible rookie year and Lonzo Ball who has yet to play a regular season game. Just because you are young, and drafted with a high pick, doesn't mean you are automatically part of a core.

Kings. What core do they have that can reasonably make them a top 5-10 team? Buddy Hield? Maybe Fox develops but again he hasn't played a regular season game yet. WCS isn't getting you anywhere.

Denver - same
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1706 » by TheFire » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:16 pm

Cutter wrote:
NTB wrote:
Cutter wrote:I recently saw a thread going around about which teams have the best "core". Some had the Suns ranked as the 2nd best core, others had Suns as low as the #4 core. I don't have the Suns core ranked at all as I don't believe the Suns even have a core. The Suns have a collection of very young players, of which hardly any project to be more than serviceable rotation players and more than likely bench contributors. The term core implies you have group of young players who, if properly developed, can lead your team to the playoffs and eventually a conference championship appearance or finals appearance.

Outside of Booker we do not have a single young player who has yet to show he can be a #1,#2 or #3 contributor on a top 5 team in the NBA. And I'm not yet convinced that Booker has the talent to be a top player on a championship team.

I say the statements above as a Suns homer. I always hope for the best from front office decisions, and always root for our young players to develop into all stars. However at the end of this recent few years of tanking I am not seeing much to give me hope that we are going to be relevant in the next 5 years.

Maybe Devin Booker and Josh Jackson develop into those top players that every top 5 team needs. Rant over, let me slip my Suns homer glasses back on, they fit me very well. :D


So Philadelphia has a core besides Embiid? (which played 30ish games) Simmons and Fultz both played 0 NBA games.

Lakers has a core?
Kings?
Denver?

Only Bucks, Celtics and Portland made the playoffs with their "core".

IMO Lakers do not have a core. They have Brandon Ingram who had a terrible rookie year and Lonzo Ball who has yet to play a regular season game. Just because you are young, and drafted with a high pick, doesn't mean you are automatically part of a core.

Kings. What core do they have that can reasonably make them a top 5-10 team? Buddy Hield? Maybe Fox develops but again he hasn't played a regular season game yet. WCS isn't getting you anywhere.

Denver - same


I believe the Nuggets have legit franchise cornerstone to build around in Jokic, similar to what the Bucks have with Giannis and the Timberwolves with KAT. It's going to be interesting to see what kind of jump Booker takes this year because I believe he can eventually be that guy. Booker's ceiling is James Harden IMO.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1707 » by TOO » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:36 pm

I see a lot of James Harden comps for Booker, but it seems Suns fans would never want a guy like Harden on their team, this makes me laugh. That is all.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1708 » by Cutter » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:51 pm

Booker = Harden. I would love love love if it happens, but doubtful...........
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1709 » by jcsunsfan » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:13 pm

TOO wrote:I see a lot of James Harden comps for Booker, but it seems Suns fans would never want a guy like Harden on their team, this makes me laugh. That is all.


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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1710 » by thamadkant » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:21 pm

Anyone actually watch Harden?

The guy's dribbling ability and slashing ability is so much better than Booker's. He's got the euro step, the south african step and even the japanese step, the guy can weave himself from elite defenders and big men in the key... draws the foul or gets a layup... just amazing. Then he has that smooth low dribble then pull up or step back....

Booker has a stiff body when dribbles, he doesnt get as low as Harden so it limits his ability to outdribble or control the ball when pressed or when he tries to beat defenders.... he has a Reggie Miller/Allan Houston type game... with forced all-round game which hopefully he improves at... he's closer to Joe Johnson actually... Harden is a legit crafty and elite handler... and before someone mentions Harden at 3rd year.... Harden was held back, the skills was there all along, he didnt get the green light as much since he was 6th man. Morey knows he's good so he gave him the keys to the Rockets and he got the green light and voila,
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1711 » by BobbieL » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:29 pm

1UPZ wrote:Anyone actually watch Harden?

The guy's dribbling ability and slashing ability is so much better than Booker's. He's got the euro step, the south african step and even the japanese step, the guy can weave himself from elite defenders and big men in the key... draws the foul or gets a layup... just amazing. Then he has that smooth low dribble then pull up or step back....

Booker has a stiff body when dribbles, he doesnt get as low as Harden so it limits his ability to outdribble or control the ball when pressed or when he tries to beat defenders.... he has a Reggie Miller/Allan Houston type game... with forced all-round game which hopefully he improves at... he's closer to Joe Johnson actually... Harden is a legit crafty and elite handler... and before someone mentions Harden at 3rd year.... Harden was held back, the skills was there all along, he didnt get the green light as much since he was 6th man. Morey knows he's good so he gave him the keys to the Rockets and he got the green light and voila,


Booker is fine
his comp is more Klay Thompson than Harden - pure shooter
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1712 » by MrMiyagi » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:31 pm

Cutter wrote:I recently saw a thread going around about which teams have the best "core". Some had the Suns ranked as the 2nd best core, others had Suns as low as the #4 core. I don't have the Suns core ranked at all as I don't believe the Suns even have a core. The Suns have a collection of very young players, of which hardly any project to be more than serviceable rotation players and more than likely bench contributors. The term core implies you have group of young players who, if properly developed, can lead your team to the playoffs and eventually a conference championship appearance or finals appearance.

Outside of Booker we do not have a single young player who has yet to show he can be a #1,#2 or #3 contributor on a top 5 team in the NBA. And I'm not yet convinced that Booker has the talent to be a top player on a championship team.

I say the statements above as a Suns homer. I always hope for the best from front office decisions, and always root for our young players to develop into all stars. However at the end of this recent few years of tanking I am not seeing much to give me hope that we are going to be relevant in the next 5 years.

Maybe Devin Booker and Josh Jackson develop into those top players that every top 5 team needs. Rant over, let me slip my Suns homer glasses back on, they fit me very well. :D


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Well, I guess you have to determine what "if properly developed" means. Does it mean hit their ceilings? Be closer to their ceilings than their floors? Be more consistent versions of their current selves? Whatever definition it is you want to use, I think if Booker, Jackson, Bender, Chriss, TJ, Ulis and even DJJr, Davon Reed, Alan Williams, Archie Goodwin ( :wink: ) all "properly develop" they can take the Suns to the playoffs, make a conference finals appearance and possibly a finals appearance (of course, this is contingent on the state of the league in 3-5 years time).

Let's just say there are 5 tiers (1 Hall of Famer, 2 Multiple All Star, 3 Starter, 4 Role Player, 5 Bench Warmer) for our core six (Booker, Jackson, TJ, Bender, Chriss, Ulis) to slate into. I think realistically, we can get two 2s, and three 3s and a 4. Now, is that enough to hit the playoffs? Maybe. But you also have to factor in, is that an attractive group to want to join? I'd say it's an easy yes. Since free agency has played a huge role on championship teams of late, I'd say that having a good group of players that are inviting to whoever emerges as a superstar is just as qualifying for a "core" as "a group of players get to the playoffs/conference finals/finals by themselves in X years time"
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1713 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:39 pm

1UPZ wrote:Anyone actually watch Harden?

The guy's dribbling ability and slashing ability is so much better than Booker's. He's got the euro step, the south african step and even the japanese step, the guy can weave himself from elite defenders and big men in the key... draws the foul or gets a layup... just amazing. Then he has that smooth low dribble then pull up or step back....

Booker has a stiff body when dribbles, he doesnt get as low as Harden so it limits his ability to outdribble or control the ball when pressed or when he tries to beat defenders.... he has a Reggie Miller/Allan Houston type game... with forced all-round game which hopefully he improves at... he's closer to Joe Johnson actually... Harden is a legit crafty and elite handler... and before someone mentions Harden at 3rd year.... Harden was held back, the skills was there all along, he didnt get the green light as much since he was 6th man. Morey knows he's good so he gave him the keys to the Rockets and he got the green light and voila,


Joe Johnson is actually a pretty good comp. I hadn't thought of that one I don't think.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1714 » by Roddy B for 3 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:01 am

carey wrote:
Roddy B for 3 wrote:How would Suns fans feel about Wesley Matthews (18.5M this season, player option at 19.5M next season) + Dwight Powell + 2 2nd rounders + Dallas' 2018 1st top 6 protected (indefinitely) for cap space?


First you tell me how you're a Saints fan but also support all those Texas teams? Would make sense for you to be a Cowboys fan!


My Dad followed the local football team, the 'Aints without caring about basketball. He then moved to Dallas in the mid-80's and fell in love with the Mavericks. He also lived 15minutes from Chapel hill and is the same age as MJ when MJ was there.

He passed down his Saints fandom and basketball fandom to me. Everything else is my choice.

-------------Would you all do a more protected 2018 Dallas 1st (say top 11 protected) + Wesley Matthews for cap space? Maybe we add 1 2nd
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1715 » by thamadkant » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:08 am

BobbieL wrote:
1UPZ wrote:Anyone actually watch Harden?

The guy's dribbling ability and slashing ability is so much better than Booker's. He's got the euro step, the south african step and even the japanese step, the guy can weave himself from elite defenders and big men in the key... draws the foul or gets a layup... just amazing. Then he has that smooth low dribble then pull up or step back....

Booker has a stiff body when dribbles, he doesnt get as low as Harden so it limits his ability to outdribble or control the ball when pressed or when he tries to beat defenders.... he has a Reggie Miller/Allan Houston type game... with forced all-round game which hopefully he improves at... he's closer to Joe Johnson actually... Harden is a legit crafty and elite handler... and before someone mentions Harden at 3rd year.... Harden was held back, the skills was there all along, he didnt get the green light as much since he was 6th man. Morey knows he's good so he gave him the keys to the Rockets and he got the green light and voila,


Booker is fine
his comp is more Klay Thompson than Harden - pure shooter




Disagree.

Booker is not the shooter Klay is. Booker originally was on the path to become a sharp shooter but has been developed to do more all round game... like a poor man's Hayward type with no defense and more turn overs.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1716 » by Jarlaxle0204 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:56 am

It's almost like you guys think these KIDS are finished products. Not even 1 of Booker, Bender, Chriss, or Jackson can even drink yet. I know it's been awhile since we've been any good. We need to be patient and let this group grow and keep cap space available to add players within the next 2 to 3 years.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1717 » by TeamTragic » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:05 am

1UPZ wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
1UPZ wrote:Anyone actually watch Harden?

The guy's dribbling ability and slashing ability is so much better than Booker's. He's got the euro step, the south african step and even the japanese step, the guy can weave himself from elite defenders and big men in the key... draws the foul or gets a layup... just amazing. Then he has that smooth low dribble then pull up or step back....

Booker has a stiff body when dribbles, he doesnt get as low as Harden so it limits his ability to outdribble or control the ball when pressed or when he tries to beat defenders.... he has a Reggie Miller/Allan Houston type game... with forced all-round game which hopefully he improves at... he's closer to Joe Johnson actually... Harden is a legit crafty and elite handler... and before someone mentions Harden at 3rd year.... Harden was held back, the skills was there all along, he didnt get the green light as much since he was 6th man. Morey knows he's good so he gave him the keys to the Rockets and he got the green light and voila,


Booker is fine
his comp is more Klay Thompson than Harden - pure shooter




Disagree.

Booker is not the shooter Klay is. Booker originally was on the path to become a sharp shooter but has been developed to do more all round game... like a poor man's Hayward type with no defense and more turn overs.


Did you just call Booker a poor man's Hayward type with no defense and more turnovers? We have reached a new low. Maybe you are just bored because McD isn't making stupid trades.

If you don't want to watch our youth develop then feel free to find a treadmill team. There are now plenty in the West that you can follow on NBA League Pass.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1718 » by thamadkant » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:06 am

If Booker can simply improve his defense to mediocre and remain the same offensively I would be satisfied with him... Of course it would mean Suns still need a main option type star then... But point is... He cant be horrific defensively.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1719 » by thamadkant » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:09 am

GoranTragic wrote:
1UPZ wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
Booker is fine
his comp is more Klay Thompson than Harden - pure shooter




Disagree.

Booker is not the shooter Klay is. Booker originally was on the path to become a sharp shooter but has been developed to do more all round game... like a poor man's Hayward type with no defense and more turn overs.


Did you just call Booker a poor man's Hayward type with no defense and more turnovers? We have reached a new low. Maybe you are just bored because McD isn't making stupid trades.

If you don't want to watch our youth develop then feel free to find a treadmill team. There are now plenty in the West that you can follow on NBA League Pass.



Booker's all round game is similar to a poor man's Hayward.. Yes I made that comparison.

Booker is the better scorer however due to his arsenal and jump shot. But all round as in dribbling, play making and the miscellaenous stuff... Hayward has him beat. Hayward is like Ginobili in that regards.

And you cant argue Booker and Hayward defensively.... Absolutely you cannot even compare that aspect... One is considered a good wing defender the other is one of the worst defenders in his position.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion 3: #TheTimeline 

Post#1720 » by bwgood77 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:10 am

GoranTragic wrote:
1UPZ wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
Booker is fine
his comp is more Klay Thompson than Harden - pure shooter




Disagree.

Booker is not the shooter Klay is. Booker originally was on the path to become a sharp shooter but has been developed to do more all round game... like a poor man's Hayward type with no defense and more turn overs.


Did you just call Booker a poor man's Hayward type with no defense and more turnovers? We have reached a new low. Maybe you are just bored because McD isn't making stupid trades.

If you don't want to watch our youth develop then feel free to find a treadmill team. There are now plenty in the West that you can follow on NBA League Pass.


That's a compliment...I think. Hayward is a much more all around player than Klay....and Booker looks to do more than shoot. Hayward's really good by the way.

Actually Hayward shoots nearly as well from 3 as well, but kills Klay in Advanced stats across the board.

http://bkref.com/tiny/zACao

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