RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12

[Winsome Gerbil]

#12 Karl Malone
#13 Big O

[Pablo Novi]

...
MY VOTE:
Karl Malone (GOAT #2 PF)
Dr J (GOAT #2 SF)
Big "O" (GOAT #2 PG)
Jerry West, Bird, Pettit, Cousy (in this order. GOAT #3s at their respective positions)
...

Sorry, but you only get one vote and one alternate. Is this a vote for Karl Malone with Julius Erving as alternate? I can't count it if I am not sure.

Yes, it's a vote for Karl Malone and Dr J as alternate.

[THKNKG]

For me to vote Karl or Moses over KG or Dirk, I'd have to be convinced that their peak/prime were on a similar level. Otherwise, their longevity still doesn't put them on that level.

[scrabbarista]

12. Karl Malone
13. Julius Erving

I. Karl Malone Bob Pettit are tied among remaining players in my MVP voting metric. Julius Erving is next.

II. Malone is second among remaining players in my "Honors" metric.

III. Malone is the only player, along with Kareem, to have over 60,000 career regular season points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks. Kevin Garnett, in fourth all-time, has 50,074. This gigantic number for Malone is a major part of his case for being so high despite his relatively "lackluster" playoff resume.

IV. Speaking of the playoffs, Malone is 9th all-time in playoff points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. He is above all remaining players, as well as Bill Russell, Larry Bird(!), and Hakeem Olajuwon.

V. Significant parts of Erving's case come from his time in the ABA, which I penalize pretty heavily (I think I have the penalty at minus 30% for most accomplishments). Even with that penalty, his numbers are impressive, as is the fact that he was the best player on two championship teams while in his prime (also penalized at 30%). The only players left who have that on their resumes are Mikan, Isiah Thomas, and Dave Cowens, none of whom I would personally consider this high, meaning he is unique among players in consideration.

VI. Even with a 30% penalty for his ABA numbers, Erving is 12th all-time in postseason points, rebounds, blocks, steals, and assists. He finishes above Hakeem Olajuwon and above all remaining players other than Malone.

[Pablo Novi]

VOTE #1. Oscar Robertson


I sometimes feel like Oscar Robertson get's really downplayed because of ERA and Pacing. I'm not saying that is isn't a reason to take him over Magic as I would take Magic of all time but there is a discussion to be had that The Big O was better than Magic during their primes.

At the end of the day we will never truly know how great O was because of such the distance of ERA.

Vote #2. Jerry West

The Logo was considered one of the greatest shooters of his generation, average 25+ and 9 assists during his prime and on all time level defense.

I agree - the Big "O" was about as good a PG as was Magic. (He averaged a triple-double over the first FIVE years of his career.

I also agree about Jerry West - he was the original Curry - virtually unlimited range (if they'd have had the 3-point shot back then!). Back then we all knew about his defensive prowess. He certainly earned his nickname, "Mr Clutch".

Here's a sample from my Reg. Seas. GOAT list. Col. 1 is their Over-All GOAT rank (based on their "Points", in Col 2. Those "Points" are based on their number of selections to ALL-League 1st-Teams, 2nd-Teams, etc. A player gets 5 "Points" for each 1st-Team selection; 3 "Points" for each 2nd-Team selection.

My basic criteria for my GOAT rankings is based on the NUMBER of Great Years each player had. All these guys had at least 10 such Great Years.

..8 ! 55.. ! 3 ! West, Jerry ............ !! 2
..9 ! 54.. ! 2 ! Erving, Julius .......... !! 3
10 ! 51.. ! 1 ! Robertson, Oscar ...... !! 1
11 ! 50.. ! 2 ! Johnson, Magic ......... !! 1

[Pablo Novi]

[SNIP]

Case for West: Phenomenal efficiency compared to his era, equivalent of mid .60s TS scorers today, although his volume should also be adjusted down for era (Both his efficiency and volume are more like 2015 or 2017 Curry than Kobe?) One of best clutch playoff/Finals performance cases on the board. Lots of defensive accolades. Great intangibles. Case against: Average longevity and injury prone regular seasons. Defense isn’t confirmed, could be media driven

[SNIP]

KG/DIrk/Erving over West - West's career is spectacular but the more I look at it the longevity and health difference is hard to justify here. He has a decent 11 prime seasons but has less of the quality post prime seasons of players like KG and Dirk and those still matter.

[SNIP]

impact due to position.

Vote: Kevin Garnett

2nd: Dirk Nowitzki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-NBA_Team
If you scroll down to the bottom (just above the list of references); you'll find the (non-ABA, non-NBL) top 23 Greatest Players (BY number of Great (Reg. Seas.) Years.

If you sort that list by total number of ALL-NBA selections, you have Jerry West with 12 of them, (tied for #s 7-11, along with: Cousy, Schayes, Nowitzki & Hakeem) and ahead of 5 players we've already selected: MJ, Bird, Wilt, Russell and Magic.

Additionally, in terms of the quality of his Post-Season play - in most of those Post-Season runs, he was phenomenal.

[oldschooled]

Thinking of the forwards here. Mailman, Sir Charles, Dirk, KG and Dr. J. And just like Purch said, i think its time giving serious considerations to Sir Charles. Mailman clearly with that insane RELEVANT longevity. I don't want to punish Dr. J here for his ABA days but lets face it... mid 70's maybe was the weakest era and i value playing against tougher competition higher. Lets look how they stack up against each other.

Regular season (career)

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Rk             Player    PER  TS%  USG%  WS     BPM 
1    Charles Barkley*   24.6 .612  24.8  177.2  7.4 
2      Julius Erving*   23.6 .558  27.2  181.1  6.2
3        Karl Malone*   23.9 .577  29.4  234.6  5.4
4       Kevin Garnett   22.7 .546  24.7  191.4  5.4
5       Dirk Nowitzki   22.9 .578  26.8  201.3  3.4 


MVP shares

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8.               Karl Malone*      4.296
12.            Julius Erving*      3.551
17.             Kevin Garnett      2.753
21.          Charles Barkley*      2.437
26.             Dirk Nowitzki      1.810


Playoffs (career)

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Rk             Player  PER   TS%  USG%   WS    BPM
1      Julius Erving*  22.1  .553  26.2  26.9  5.8
2    Charles Barkley*  24.2  .584  25.2  19.5  7.3
3        Karl Malone*  21.1  .526  29.9  23.0  3.6
4       Dirk Nowitzki  23.8  .577  27.1  23.1  4.0 
5       Kevin Garnett  21.1  .525  25.4  16.4  4.6 


Its really insane what Barkley did in his career and his prime years wasted just like that. Just looking at these stats, you would assume Barkley was the better regular season (can argue Malone being on par or better regular season wise) and playoff performer (you can argue Dirk being on par or better playoff wise) between them 5. Barkley won his MVP also against PEAKish Jordan.

[Pablo Novi]

For me to vote Karl or Moses over KG or Dirk, I'd have to be convinced that their peak/prime were on a similar level. Otherwise, their longevity still doesn't put them on that level.

Addressing Karl Malone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-NBA_Team
If you scroll down to the bottom (just above the references); there's a list of the 23 NBA (not-ABA or NBL) players with a total of 10 separate seasons on the ALL-NBA 1st- , 2nd- or 3rd-Teams.

Karl Malone was voted ALL-NBA 1st-Team ELEVEN times (only Kobe & LeBron have as many). This means he was the BEST player at his position for 11 years. He also garnered TWO 2nd-Team selections. He made ALL-NBA 1st-Team every year of the 1990s.

So, at least in terms of PRIME, Karl "destroys" KG (whose name doesn't even appear on this list).
KG "only" had: 4 1st-Teams, 3 2nd-Teams and 2 3rd-Teams.

Likewise, while Dirk's name does appear on the list, he "only" had FOUR years as a 1st-Teamer; and only 5 more as a 2nd-Teamer.

In my opinion, Karl Malone's PRME clearly and overwhelmingly outshines both KG's and Dirk's.

In an earlier post in this thread, I listed the All-Time Top 50 NBA-ABA-NBL players based on the number of their ALL-League selections; with 1st-Team selections getting 5 "Points" and 2nd-Team selections getting 3 "Points" (3rd-Team selections get less, naturally).

For these FOUR players here are their total "Points":
#3 Rank: Karl Malone 66 Points
#17 Rank: Dirk Nowitski 43.3 Points
#21 Rank: Kevin Garnett 38.8 Points
#29 Rank: Moses Malone 33.5 Points.

Karl dominates all of them.

[THKNKG]

For me to vote Karl or Moses over KG or Dirk, I'd have to be convinced that their peak/prime were on a similar level. Otherwise, their longevity still doesn't put them on that level.

Addressing Karl Malone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-NBA_Team
If you scroll down to the bottom (just above the references); there's a list of the 23 NBA (not-ABA or NBL) players with a total of 10 separate seasons on the ALL-NBA 1st- , 2nd- or 3rd-Teams.

Karl Malone was voted ALL-NBA 1st-Team ELEVEN times (only Kobe & LeBron have as many). This means he was the BEST player at his position for 11 years. He also garnered TWO 2nd-Team selections. He made ALL-NBA 1st-Team every year of the 1990s.

So, at least in terms of PRIME, Karl "destroys" KG (whose name doesn't even appear on this list).
KG "only" had: 4 1st-Teams, 3 2nd-Teams and 2 3rd-Teams.

Likewise, while Dirk's name does appear on the list, he "only" had FOUR years as a 1st-Teamer; and only 5 more as a 2nd-Teamer.

In my opinion, Karl Malone's PRME clearly and overwhelmingly outshines both KG's and Dirk's.

In an earlier post in this thread, I listed the All-Time Top 50 NBA-ABA-NBL players based on the number of their ALL-League selections; with 1st-Team selections getting 5 "Points" and 2nd-Team selections getting 3 "Points" (3rd-Team selections get less, naturally).

For these FOUR players here are their total "Points":
#3 Rank: Karl Malone 66 Points
#17 Rank: Dirk Nowitski 43.3 Points
#21 Rank: Kevin Garnett 38.8 Points
#29 Rank: Moses Malone 33.5 Points.

Karl dominates all of them.

If your only source of criteria is all-NBA teams, sure. I don't think that's a good measure though. That's done by a panel of voters, so it's basically allowing a panel of voters to determine your opinion, IMO. I don't put much weight on it.

[Pablo Novi]

Thinking of the forwards here. Mailman, Sir Charles, Dirk, KG and Dr. J. And just like Purch said, i think its time giving serious considerations to Sir Charles. Mailman clearly with that insane RELEVANT longevity. I don't want to punish Dr. J here for his ABA days but lets face it... mid 70's maybe was the weakest era and i value playing against tougher competition higher. Lets look how they stack up against each other.

Regular season (career)

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Rk             Player    PER  TS%  USG%  WS     BPM 
1    Charles Barkley*   24.6 .612  24.8  177.2  7.4 
2      Julius Erving*   23.6 .558  27.2  181.1  6.2
3        Karl Malone*   23.9 .577  29.4  234.6  5.4
4       Kevin Garnett   22.7 .546  24.7  191.4  5.4
5       Dirk Nowitzki   22.9 .578  26.8  201.3  3.4 


MVP shares

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8.               Karl Malone*      4.296
12.            Julius Erving*      3.551
17.             Kevin Garnett      2.753
21.          Charles Barkley*      2.437
26.             Dirk Nowitzki      1.810


Playoffs (career)

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Rk             Player  PER   TS%  USG%   WS    BPM
1      Julius Erving*  22.1  .553  26.2  26.9  5.8
2    Charles Barkley*  24.2  .584  25.2  19.5  7.3
3        Karl Malone*  21.1  .526  29.9  23.0  3.6
4       Dirk Nowitzki  23.8  .577  27.1  23.1  4.0 
5       Kevin Garnett  21.1  .525  25.4  16.4  4.6 


Its really insane what Barkley did in his career and his prime years wasted just like that. Just looking at these stats, you would assume Barkley was the better regular season (can argue Malone being on par or better regular season wise) and playoff performer (you can argue Dirk being on par or better playoff wise) between them 5. Barkley won his MVP also against PEAKish Jordan.

As contemporaries, let's compare Karl & Charles:
Karl: 11 ALL-NBA 1st-Team selections; 2 2nd-Team selections; 1 3rd-Team selection
Charles: 5 ALL-NBA 1st-Team selections; 5 2nd-Team selections; 1 3rd-Team selection

[oldschooled]

Karl: 11 ALL-NBA 1st-Team selections; 2 2nd-Team selections; 1 3rd-Team selection
Charles: 5 ALL-NBA 1st-Team selections; 5 2nd-Team selections; 1 3rd-Team selection

I think it was stated in MVP shares regarding that ^

[andrewww]

Lots of great candidates at this juncture. The ones that stand out to me:

Jerry West - The 1960s combo guard that was a superb scorer, shooter and defender.
Oscar Robertson - The Lebron of the 1960s at 6-5.
Karl Malone - Incredible career value, does his playoff shortcomings reflect a dip in PS play or was he unlucky to go up against MJ?
Charles Barkley - Higher peak than Mailman? But shorter prime. Fell short against MJ in 93.
Dirk Nowitzki - ATG playoff run in 2011 when he put it all together offensively.
Kevin Garnett - Swiss army knife defender, but did he underachieve?
Moses Malone - Offensive rebounding machine. Anchored the 83 Sixers.
David Robinson - In the discussion with KG as the best defender of this group. IMO he was better than KG on the defensive end.
Kevin Durant - Doesnt quite have Dirk's overall body of work but is comparable in terms of game. Versatile defender in the right scheme like he is now with GSW. Extremely portable. Has perhaps the highest ceiling of the remaining names.
Stephen Curry - ATG offensive gravity and GOAT shooter.
Dwyane Wade - Second best shooting guard of his generation.

Am leaning towards Logo/Big O/Mailman/Dirk in this spot.

[Pablo Novi]

For me to vote Karl or Moses over KG or Dirk, I'd have to be convinced that their peak/prime were on a similar level. Otherwise, their longevity still doesn't put them on that level.

Addressing Karl Malone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-NBA_Team
If you scroll down to the bottom (just above the references); there's a list of the 23 NBA (not-ABA or NBL) players with a total of 10 separate seasons on the ALL-NBA 1st- , 2nd- or 3rd-Teams.

Karl Malone was voted ALL-NBA 1st-Team ELEVEN times (only Kobe & LeBron have as many). This means he was the BEST player at his position for 11 years. He also garnered TWO 2nd-Team selections. He made ALL-NBA 1st-Team every year of the 1990s.

So, at least in terms of PRIME, Karl "destroys" KG (whose name doesn't even appear on this list).
KG "only" had: 4 1st-Teams, 3 2nd-Teams and 2 3rd-Teams.

Likewise, while Dirk's name does appear on the list, he "only" had FOUR years as a 1st-Teamer; and only 5 more as a 2nd-Teamer.

In my opinion, Karl Malone's PRME clearly and overwhelmingly outshines both KG's and Dirk's.

In an earlier post in this thread, I listed the All-Time Top 50 NBA-ABA-NBL players based on the number of their ALL-League selections; with 1st-Team selections getting 5 "Points" and 2nd-Team selections getting 3 "Points" (3rd-Team selections get less, naturally).

For these FOUR players here are their total "Points":
#3 Rank: Karl Malone 66 Points
#17 Rank: Dirk Nowitski 43.3 Points
#21 Rank: Kevin Garnett 38.8 Points
#29 Rank: Moses Malone 33.5 Points.

Karl dominates all of them.

If your only source of criteria is all-NBA teams, sure. I don't think that's a good measure though. That's done by a panel of voters, so it's basically allowing a panel of voters to determine your opinion, IMO. I don't put much weight on it.

But this is not just any panel of voters. It's a panel of voters composed of people whose job it is to report on the NBA!

Further, if you compare ALL-NBA selections over the years to the actual player's level of play: you'll find that the ALL-NBA selectors NAIL just about every single year (and do better than the MVP voters have done).

By way of example, 4 times the MVP was not even ALL-NBA 1st-Team; but instead was ALL-NBA 2nd-Team to the very player, Center, he was voted over for the MVP (Russell over: Pettit, 1958; Russell over Wilt (1961 & 1962!!), Wilt; Cowens over KAJ, 1973,

There are other years, like Nash's MVPs and others where the MVP was NOT the NBA's truly most valuable player.

But, again, if ALL you knew about any Reg. Season was the list of the ALL-NBA selectees - you'd know a good deal about who dominated the League that year. (As a "rabid" fan since the 1959-60 season, the ALL-NBA (and ALL-ABA) selections have virtually EVERY SINGLE YEAR been the same as who I felt were the best players.)

And for me, my #1 criteria for building a GOAT list is the NUMBER OF GREAT YEARS each player had.

[LA Bird]

Carrying my votes and discussion over from last round:

1. Kevin Garnett
Longevity is quite important in my all time list (see Kareem ranking above Jordan/LeBron despite having a far worse prime) so it should come as no surprise that KG would rank highly for me. Garnett in his prime wasn't the best offensive or defensive player in the league but his combined impact on both ends of the floor is definitely one of the best. His post-08 Celtics seasons are largely ignored because they are "post prime" but while that is true for his offense, he played some of the best defense anybody has played in probably the last 50 years. Most of the criticism on KG has been his inability to single handedly carry a team's offense like a superstar but I don't see that as much of an issue when he is still a really good offensive player for most of his prime.

2. Dirk Nowitzki
Dirk/Kobe/Malone are more or less on the same level for me but Dirk is slightly ahead of the other two as of now. He could potentially drop lower if he stays around as a below average player for too long but that time hasn't come yet.

Spoiler:

Again, using longevity as an argument for guys like this with Mailman sitting right there makes little sense.
You can say that Garnett or Dirk were as good as Malone for a while. Maybe. If you born in 1990 or later and don't realize just how relentlessly dominant Mailman was forever and ever.

I don't consider Malone to be dominant unless we are only looking at regular season box scores. If it wasn't for his GOAT longevity, he wouldn't be top 20 on my list.

That does not really seem like a very good assessment of a 2x MVP, the 2nd leading scorer of all time and a Dream Teamer who was a Top 5 player for something like a dozen years in a row.

I don't have Malone as being close to the best player in any season and being 2nd all time leading scorer / top 5 for 10+ years both say more about his longevity and sustained excellence rather than his dominance in any season. There are several top 5 players every year and Malone isn't a dominant scorer when you take into account his consistent playoff woes.

Stockton to Malone went on and on and on forever. They were like Dallas before Dallas. Between 1988-89 and 2000-01 they went:

51-31
55-27
54-28
55-27
47-35
53-29
60-22
55-27
64-18
62-20
37-13 (61 win pace)
55-27
53-29

Counting win totals when evaluating individual players isn't fair but if you want to do this, Dirk led the Mavs to similar team success without ever playing with anyone as good as Stockton who is a top 20 player himself.

When they won 64 games and challenged the Bulls this was the roster:
Karl Malone (age 33)
John Stockton (age 34)
Jeff Hornacek (age 33)
Bryon Russell/
Greg Ostertag
Antoine Carr
Shandon Anderson
Adam Keefe
Chris Morris
Howard Eisley
the immortal Ruben Nembhard
Greg Foster
Jamie Watson
Stephen Howard
Brooks Thompson
= 64 wins

How on earth could that group have won 64 games if they were not being led by an all timer's all timer?

Not exactly unprecedented for a team with two HOFers to win 60+ and we have seen teams with less star power do the same.

[Winsome Gerbil]

Thinking of the forwards here. Mailman, Sir Charles, Dirk, KG and Dr. J. And just like Purch said, i think its time giving serious considerations to Sir Charles. Mailman clearly with that insane RELEVANT longevity. I don't want to punish Dr. J here for his ABA days but lets face it... mid 70's maybe was the weakest era and i value playing against tougher competition higher. Lets look how they stack up against each other.

Regular season (career)

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Rk             Player    PER  TS%  USG%  WS     BPM 
1    Charles Barkley*   24.6 .612  24.8  177.2  7.4 
2      Julius Erving*   23.6 .558  27.2  181.1  6.2
3        Karl Malone*   23.9 .577  29.4  234.6  5.4
4       Kevin Garnett   22.7 .546  24.7  191.4  5.4
5       Dirk Nowitzki   22.9 .578  26.8  201.3  3.4 


MVP shares

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8.               Karl Malone*      4.296
12.            Julius Erving*      3.551
17.             Kevin Garnett      2.753
21.          Charles Barkley*      2.437
26.             Dirk Nowitzki      1.810


Playoffs (career)

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Rk             Player  PER   TS%  USG%   WS    BPM
1      Julius Erving*  22.1  .553  26.2  26.9  5.8
2    Charles Barkley*  24.2  .584  25.2  19.5  7.3
3        Karl Malone*  21.1  .526  29.9  23.0  3.6
4       Dirk Nowitzki  23.8  .577  27.1  23.1  4.0 
5       Kevin Garnett  21.1  .525  25.4  16.4  4.6 


Its really insane what Barkley did in his career and his prime years wasted just like that. Just looking at these stats, you would assume Barkley was the better regular season (can argue Malone being on par or better regular season wise) and playoff performer (you can argue Dirk being on par or better playoff wise) between them 5. Barkley won his MVP also against PEAKish Jordan.

Love Sir Charles. Was my favorite player back in the day, and IMO the single most TALENTED PF of all time. He was a complete physical freak too. I'll have more on him in the morning, but much as I loved his game, I just can't put him above Mailman, who was a contemporary who outlasted him, often got the better of head to heads (with some help from his constant parade of 7'2"+ lurch riim protecting teammates), and who retired, after Sir Charles, with the rarely disputed title as the GOAT PF.

[Purch]

When you guys talk about longevity, how often do you factor in the playoffs?

For example when we disscused Duncan vs KG and the topic of longevity came up, it waa rarley referenced that Tim Duncan accumulated over 2 full 82 game season worth of playoff minutes throughout his career. That means that every summer Duncan had less time to recover because he was playing more games. From that perspective missing the playoffs a few years can in theory have a positive affect on your overall longevity.


If you actually do the math Tim Duncan played 9,370 total playoff minutes over the course of his career. If you divide that by 48 (the total minutes in an nba game) you get a little over 195 games.

A total nba season is 82 games.
2 nba seasons is 164 games

That means that in addition to the 19 years Duncan spent in this league he also accumulated an extra 2 nba seasons + 31 games worth of playoff minutes.

Garnett on the other hand played a total of 5,283 playoff minutes. Which translates to 1 nba season worth +28 additional games.

So if you do the math, Duncan played 85 games more of playoff minutes than Garnett. Which is a season and 3 games. In addition each of those playoff minutes resulted in Duncan having less time to recover during the course of the nba season.

So my main point is when you factor in playoff minutes into longevity some of these comparisions look dramatically different.

I think Karl Malone also benifits when you keep this in mind. He himself has played exactly 2 full seasons worth of playoff minutes on top of his already incrediblr longevity

[ardee]

We did it! The Top Eleven are the right eleven players!

Indeed we did.



The great injustice of 2014 has been avenged in the last thread.

[BasketballFan7]

My argument for Erving is below.

I'll add a bit on Erving vs. West because West is gaining momentum. I don't put a ton of emphasis on longevity but it is pertinent here.
1. Neither West nor Erving's totals are inflated by low-impact, nigh irrelevant seasons/games/minutes. Neither player took time to adjust to the NBA. Nor did they linger too long past their primes.

2. Playoff availability is a big deal.

Games Played
West: 1,085
Erving: 1,432
Difference: 347

Minutes Played:
West: 42,892
Erving: 52,759
Difference: 9,867

Massive differences here that amount to the equivalent of ~3 seasons of play at the minimum. Very possibly 4+ seasons when health is taken into context.

Playoff Availability:

I'm not sure to what extent each individual poster values playoff availability. To me, this is a very big deal. I don't have a chance of winning a championship, ie accomplishing my goal, if my star is out for the playoffs.

- West missed the 1971 playoffs due to a knee injury
- West missed the 1974 playoffs due to a groin injury

Erving and his ABA peak:

I'll post here what I reiterate below in one of my quotes. 1976 Erving dominated two future NBA teams during the 1976 ABA playoffs, including Bobby Jones, David Thompson, and Dan Issel led Nuggets that had the NBA's best defense in 1977 (by a decent margin) and the NBA's second best expected W-L. Erving averaged ~38 PPG, 6 APG, 14 RPG against Denver. The other team that Erving played in the 1976 playoffs was the Spurs, who also transitioned successfully to the NBA (44-38 record in 1976).

In 1977, Erving's statistics fell off due to poor roster construction. He nevertheless increased his volume in the playoffs. His season culminated in his virtuoso performance in the finals against the Bill Walton-led Trailblazers, where Erving averaged 30 - 7 - 5 on 21.5 field goal attempts per game, including 40-8-6 in the game 6 that they lost by 2 and were eliminated.

My argument is not that Erving's peak is based wholly on these playoff series, although I do value playoff performance. These series more-so serve to add validity to his 1976 peak.

My post + previous argument

Vote: Julius Erving
Alternate: Kobe Bryant

These guys score closely in career value to me. Erving comes out a bit ahead across the board. He had a higher peak and by my criteria superior longevity. Kobe played more minutes but a substantial chunk of those minutes came post-2012 and pre-2000, and those seasons don't add a ton of value for me (2013 would have added significant value, enough to push him over Erving, had he not been injured late in the season, causing him to miss the playoffs). So, for me, longevity is a push at best and more likely going to Erving. Both players showed the ability to play with other star talent (that said, roster construction as a whole was far superior for Kobe) and both players tend to be overrated defensively.

Erving tends to be underrated altogether IMO. His reputation is such that one may come to believe that he couldn't handle the ball, shoot, or really do anything outside of be athletic and finish at the rim. This likely has to do with his PPG dropping upon entering the NBA. To me, that's on roster construction. You aren't going to convince me that 77-79 Erving was somehow significantly inferior to the 1980 and 1981 MVP winning version.

Lastly, I prefer Erving's less abrasive personality. I have Magic and Bird/Dirk after this pair.

Why do you think Erving's peak was better? ABA numbers?

And what are your thoughts on the skillset issues I outlined above?

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I just deleted my response on accident

To be brief-

Erving's 1977 playoff run adds validity to his performance. He dominated the Nuggets and the Spurs, two teams that would transition to the NBA the following season with significant roster carryover and achieve 50 and 44 wins, respectively. In particular, the Nuggets team he faced in the finals was excellent by both ABA and NBA standards. The following year the 1977 Nuggets had the best defense in the NBA, as well as the second best expected win-loss. I certainly believe Erving's 1976 to be an upper-echalon quality season.

His NBA production was stymied by poor roster construction. This affected his averages. During the 1977 playoffs he raised his game once again, both overall and in particular in the finals, where he averaged 30-7-5 against Portland after only putting up 21.6 PPG in the regular season. Portland was obviously an excellent team.

I don't have much time to go more in depth, particularly after already having to re-write this

Skill-set wise... I don't put much emphasis into that here. To be clear, Kobe had marvelous versatility. IMO this is valuable because it allowed him to maintain production against damn-near any defense that opposed him. But Erving was so good at what he did do that the inferior versatility doesn't bother me. I find his versatility to be underrated as is. Era-relative, which is all I care for (I have Russell at number one), his handle didn't impede him. You don't do what he did as a slasher without a handle. And he wasn't a non-shooter or non-passer, at least not to the extent where it hindered him.

Kobe's skill-set distinguishes him against players who I feel could be limited against `playoff defenses. For instance, I have Kobe over Malone and Bird (although Bird's playoff drop-off obviously wasn't likely due to versatility issues). I don't feel that Erving had an issue in this regard.

And a related argument:

As was the case with Jerry west, who despite his own admission that he couldn't dribble with his left hand, you put down his deficiency to rule differences, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. Even rookie Jordan, who was not refined as later Jordan, showed a level of handling abilities in the half-court that simply outshines Erving in the half court. The differences in mechanics are very telling. Quite simply Erving would be ripped in the modern era with the way he dribbled in front of defenders and he ain't splitting doubles and traps like MJ could nor is he breaking down defenses like MJ.

Basketball evolves man. Even in short spans. Each generation learns from the previous and adds to it. MJ learned from Erving and David Thompson in a way that Clyde Drexler evidently did not. We therefore got a revolution in ball handling abilities post-MJ at the wing spot. Such is the world.

But Dr J was elite ballhandler for his position. West wasn't. You don't understand, even with if MJ was a better ballhandler (he was elite so there is nothing strange with that), he handled the ball in illegal way. He couldn't palm the ball in 1970s. Even rookie MJ played in an era when refs started allowing more flashy dribble moves. It would be easier for Julius Erving to handle the ball today. Now everyone carries the ball. Without carrying rules it's so easy that even bigs try to be flashy ballhandlers.

Last point, bolded part is just not true. Julius played in the same league with MJ and he was productive even in his last season. People overrate handling abilities. Elgin Baylor didn't use many dribble moves and he could beat any defender off the dribble. All this behind the back and between the legs stuff isn't really important for basketball player. If you think it is, Dr J was quite flashy ballhandler for his era. Sometimes he was allowed to do more with the ball than the rest because people loved him. He could do all important things to beat defender off the dribble and he could beat double teams with his dribbling. Players now are more comfortable with his dribbling because they basically can't do any illegal dribbles with the way refs call the game. They can also travel in almost any possesion.

If you wish, I can break down Dr J handling ability with video evidence.

[Purch]

I think the great thing about the project this year is that there's been good discussion surronding surronding guys like Malone/Dirk as legitimate candidates. For whatever reason because last years discussion was dominated by the KG group early on, it gave the impression that KG was almost percived on a different level than guys like Dirk, Malone and Barkley. Now I think peoole are pushing back against that narritive.

Its similar to what happened with Wilt. When I first joined this forum it seemed like everyone ob this board was having this negative perception of Wilt. Recently however, people have been changing the way they view him, and hes been getting ranked higher than he was when I joined.

[wojoaderge]

poor roster construction

I don't like this