2017 Nets Offseason Thread III

[shakendfries]

Read on Twitter

Thank god.

I don't want that scrub anywhere near this team.

I was hoping this was a tweet about Shabazz taking his talents far away from Brooklyn

[Hello Brooklyn]

Are we going to sign anyone else?

I'm fine with going into the season with this team. But damn that would be pretty ballsy my Sean Marks. Lol

[Netaman]

Are we going to sign anyone else?

I'm fine with going into the season with this team. But damn that would be pretty ballsy my Sean Marks. Lol

Maybe, but I think at a minimum he'll sign a few veterans to 1 year deals Illyasova would make some sense as a stretch 4. Maybe look for another center since we only have 2?

[TheBrooklynKidd]

Are we going to sign anyone else?

I'm fine with going into the season with this team. But damn that would be pretty ballsy my Sean Marks. Lol

Maybe, but I think at a minimum he'll sign a few veterans to 1 year deals Illyasova would make some sense as a stretch 4. Maybe look for another center since we only have 2?

Nicholson is more of a Center than a PF. Also depending on how the rest of the roster shapes out, Booker could end up playing significant time at Center as well. I bet we go after shooting forwards like Shabazz, Illyasova, Mirotic or Green.

[Shark]

I would definitely like to see one more center signed.

[FlipFlopShot]

Are we going to sign anyone else?

I'm fine with going into the season with this team. But damn that would be pretty ballsy my Sean Marks. Lol

Ballsy maybe the wrong word, lol. Marks is just slaying capspace out there. Nothing to lose, empty land with no vegetables to exchange. Just selling that magical green grass like no other.

[steady]

Its useless because we have a player in D'angelo Russell who perfectly describes your description.

Getting DLo makes up for our past 2 seasons of misery. We went through 2 terrible years with little to no young talent. Now we have an elite Prospect. A player who went #2 just 2 years ago, and would've gone atleast top 5 this year(that's an argument for a different day). He is that prospect you are referring to.

Tanking in 2019 effectively restarts the rebuild...To get what we already have..

Last season, the "Brooklyn Bridge Year" was the start of our first rebuild.

Firing King and Hiring Marks was the start of a second rebuild.

Now we're discussing a third rebuild before we're even halfway through the second?

You can't just press the pause button on a rebuild and decide to tank either. The opportunity has to present itself, not be forced. For example The spurs only got Duncan because Robinson got injured. The Sixer's arguably only got Simmons (and Fultz) because Embiid can't stay healthy. If you're forcing your team to tank, it means you've traded away all our young talent. That means the last 3 years were rendered useless. It also means the team would be another 3 years away from competing.

6 years of useless basketball for an organization that's still struggling to establish a smart fanbase. That's why tanking in 2019 is useless.

Look I like D'Angelo Russell. He's a nice player.

But to say that he can be the type of player to lead a team to a Championship is completely delusional. The Lakers couldn't even get a lottery pick for him.

And Point Guards are almost never the best player on Championship teams. Curry is the lone exception because of his shooting ability.

I think he could end up being an all-star. But its is highly unlikely that he ends up being a Durant/Lebron type player.

Were in the midst of a rebuild right now. I don't see the point of moving forward with a Russell/Levert/RHJ core. We all know that that's not a Championship level team.

I never said we should force out team to tank. I would do it by letting Lin walk and trading away RHJ. As long as we can ensure that we have a top 5 pick in 2019. That's all I would want.

Ok that's fair. But if DLo can prove himself to be a good teammate in BK, and the nets continue to have an attractive culture/environment then that might be all you need.

Look at the Rockets. They didn't really have to do anything. Melo and CP3 wanted to go there and made it happen.

The reputation Brooklyn is growing for itself, coupled with the opportunity to play with a potential star PG, and young talent like LeVert and potential break outs. That's not a terrible pitch to free agents. Celtics did it and got Horford and Hayward back-to-back years in F/A.

I just feel like its unnecessary to try and tank when there are more practical options. We have a chance to make the playoffs In 2019 and I wouldn't throw that away for yet another frustrating year.

DLo is in a contract year in 2019. I just don't see him tanking.

Sean Marks also talks so intensely about wanting players who play hard and that that's what they are looking for in the team culture. It's really hard to imagine him overseeing a tank

[Netaman]

Ilyasova just got 1 year 6m from Atlanta, so I guess Marks isn't ready to start dumpster diving yet. I assume he's still holding out to facilitate cap room for assets?

[Mkdaman1818]

Read on Twitter

[Process]

Hopefully the T Wolves come around and throw a pick in with Cole Aldrich
He can actually play a bit, I thought he was alright in his limited run with the Clippers. He also fills a need as backup C for us and if we can take a late first for having him for a year I'm more than happy with that

[Mkdaman1818]

Look I like D'Angelo Russell. He's a nice player.

But to say that he can be the type of player to lead a team to a Championship is completely delusional. The Lakers couldn't even get a lottery pick for him.

And Point Guards are almost never the best player on Championship teams. Curry is the lone exception because of his shooting ability.

I think he could end up being an all-star. But its is highly unlikely that he ends up being a Durant/Lebron type player.

Were in the midst of a rebuild right now. I don't see the point of moving forward with a Russell/Levert/RHJ core. We all know that that's not a Championship level team.

I never said we should force out team to tank. I would do it by letting Lin walk and trading away RHJ. As long as we can ensure that we have a top 5 pick in 2019. That's all I would want.

Ok that's fair. But if DLo can prove himself to be a good teammate in BK, and the nets continue to have an attractive culture/environment then that might be all you need.

Look at the Rockets. They didn't really have to do anything. Melo and CP3 wanted to go there and made it happen.

The reputation Brooklyn is growing for itself, coupled with the opportunity to play with a potential star PG, and young talent like LeVert and potential break outs. That's not a terrible pitch to free agents. Celtics did it and got Horford and Hayward back-to-back years in F/A.

I just feel like its unnecessary to try and tank when there are more practical options. We have a chance to make the playoffs In 2019 and I wouldn't throw that away for yet another frustrating year.

DLo is in a contract year in 2019. I just don't see him tanking.

Sean Marks also talks so intensely about wanting players who play hard and that that's what they are looking for in the team culture. It's really hard to imagine him overseeing a tank

A tank can happen irrespective of whether the players play hard or not. If marks simply benches top talent, the tank is achieved. Getting guys that play hard doesn't bridge a talent gap.

[steady]

Since the Magic traded Dwight Howard, their yearly records have been:
2012-13: 20-62 (#2 overall pick: Victor Oladipo)
2013-14: 23-59 (#4, #12 overall picks: Aaron Gordon, Dario Saric)
2014-15: 25-57 (#5 overall pick: Mario Hezonja)
2015-16: 35-47 (#11 overall pick: Domantas Sabonis)
2016-17: 29-53 (#6 overall pick: Jonathan Isaac)

They are the perfect example of a team that has had a bad record (equivalent to a tank) despite signing quality players over the years. They have been in a prime position to draft some of the best players available and yet they've remained pretty bad.

If anything, I think ORL is a case study of how things can still be bad when you have great pick selection despite signing some quality players. Having the worst record only gives you a 25% chance of drafting the #1. The Magic have had a top 6 pick four out of the last 5 seasons.

IMO, this just supports Prok's idea that intentional tanking is bad. The Magic have had tanking records despite not trying to tank and yet they're still searching for answers.

It can be bad if you're not good at drafting.

You have to be good at drafting to tank properly.

To counter Prok's point (and we have had this same argument 10 times).

Over 97% of NBA teams who have won a Championship drafted a Superstar player. Almost all of these superstar players were selected within the first 10 draft picks and most of them were selected in the top 5.

In other words, if you do not have a top pick then its nearly impossible to become a Championship winning team. There is no other way to do it.

With the exception of the 2004 Pistons, it has not been done.

It's one thing to select mid-to-end of 1st round players who outperform their draft spot, but these players almost never turn into superstars. Marks has never had a top draft pick and we've never held him to the expectation that the player he selects ought to turn into one. That's a completely different ballgame.

Yes, 97% of championship teams drafted a superstar player, but you have absolutely no control over which years the best superstars-to-be will be available. You are reading the end result back into the cause. Of course, when we do that it looks like tanking is a no brainer. But that completely voids the process of obtaining the championship of context.

Here are the 2007-2015 drafts and the superstars (and just 'stars' in brackets []) along with their respective draft slot:
2007 - Kevin Durant (2nd), [Al Horford (3rd)], [Mike Conley (4th)], **Greg Oden (1st),
2008 - *Derrick Rose (1st), Russell Westbrook (4th), [Kevin Love (5th)]
2009 - [Blake Griffin (1st)], James Harden (3rd), Stephen Curry (7th), [Demar Derozan (9th)]
2010 - John Wall (1st) [borderline superstar], Demarcus Cousins (5th), [Paul George (10th)]
2011 - [Kyrie Irving (1st)]
2012 - Anthony Davis (1st), [Damian Lillard (6th)]
2013 - None
2014 - Too early to tell but Wiggins hasn't produced wins yet, Parker has been injury prone but looks like he's on his way to being a star/allstar, Embiid was projected to be #1 before his injury but still isn't an allstar yet due to health
2015 - [Karl-Anthony Towns (1st)], [Kristaps Porzingis (4th)]

A few things stick out...
— John Wall, KAT, and Wiggins are the only non-injury prone #1 overall pick players. Embiid would have been the #1 overall pick if he didn't have a back injury that was seemingly unrelated to his subsequent lower-body injuries. The Nets have a great medical staff but that doesn't mean we won't select the BPA who isn't injury-prone.
— Since the worst team only has a 25% of winning the lottery (and I think the worst team has only won it twice in the last ten drafts), you could easily end up drafting 3rd like in the 2007 draft and miss out on the superstar. Or if Marks is as high on character as we think, maybe he avoids DMC in 2010 because he doesn't want to have to deal with the headache. We know that that was a factor in the Nets decision to draft Favors over him.


I don't think anyone is suggesting that we should avoid having a bad team at all costs. We've done that these last two (soon to be three) seasons without the express purpose of being as bad as possible. SEA/OKC had a record of 31-51, the 5th worst record in the league, when they fortunately avoided the pressure of drafting Oden and got Durant. In the Nets last 5 seasons in New Jersey, they won 34, 34, 12, 24, and 22 games; we didn't get our superstar. Surely the Nets can't be blamed for not sucking enough. There's a ton of luck involved in the process of getting a superstar.

The one major caveat that you've left out of your "tanking correlates to winning a championship" argument is that no superstar wins a championship on his own. The core of championship teams over the last 20 seasons (with the exception of the Spurs) has comprised of star players that weren't drafted by that team. The eventual champion used assets to acquire other allstar/superstar players in order to help them win.

The Lakers signed Shaq.
The Heat traded for Shaq.
The Pistons were a collection of castoffs.
The Celtics traded for Garnett and Allen.
The Lakers traded for Gasol and signed Odom.
The Mavs traded for Tyson Chandler (and previously Shawn Marion).
The Heat signed LBJ and Chris Bosh.
The Warriors traded for Andre Iguodala.
The Cavs signed LBJ and traded for Kevin Love.
The Warriors signed Kevin Durant.

Even the Spurs had players from other teams who were integral parts of their championships teams in Stephen Jackson and Danny Green. Additionally, many people rate the Spurs period of winning alternative years in the 2000s as one of the weakest eras of NBA basketball. If the Spurs faced typical championship level teams (and not the Nets or the Pistons), maybe they don't win those years.

What this should tell you is that you don't even need to be the team that drafts a superstar to win; the best way to win a championship is to have as many assets (e.g. prospects, future draft picks, cap space) as possible and be a best destination city.

Winning a championship takes a lot of luck and discipline. But it's certainly not predicated on solely just tanking for multiple years. Many teams have done that and failed. It's the teams with players who are stars (not always drafted top-5), great asset management, and the ability to sell players on their city that win championships.

Thanks - really great info.

That 2013 Draft class. The year of Anthony Bennett, KCP and Nerlens Noel.

The Warriors have benefited the most from draft picks of any team b recent times but even they traded for Igoudala and before him Bogut. That was the start of things
for them....

[moonpie]

Read on Twitter

[moonpie]

Cap space has been freed up now from the Porter match right?

[Netaman]

Cap space has been freed up now from the Porter match right?

Yep.

[Netaman]

I think there are 2 important things to note when it comes to building a championship team:

1. Your franchise has to get very lucky - whether it's draft lottery, draft year talent or free agency.
2. Having a competitive franchise helps put you in position to take advantage of whatever luck comes your way.

I agree with Prok that tanking is vastly overrated because it's far from a sure thing that you will get a super star (as evidenced by teams who have been in the lotto for years and not improved) and even if you do get a superstar if your organization is in bad shape you then find yourself in a race to get competitive quickly to make sure they don't bolt at the first opportunity.

If you build a strong, competitive organization and use your cap smartly, like Pat Reilly or Ainge, you put yourself in position to have multiple paths to getting a franchise player. Each of those organizations has been able to use the draft to their advantage without tanking and also keep themselves in conversations with top FA year after year by constantly fielding competitive teams - tanking teams with cap room don't even get meetings. It's amazing that both were able to cycle through multiple contending teams that had completely different makeups within a decade.

[imanshar]

So Thabo and Ilyasova are not available anymore and looks like we didn't even attempt to sign them. Either Marks is fine with the team or we are involved in the Melo trade.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Yeah kind of weird that were not even signing vets to one year deals. I wonder what Marks is up to.

[ChokeFasncists]

OK, so it's over, no Crabbe, no TJ; no Porter, no KCP.

I would like to get KCP but I'm also glad that he's not coming cuz it means more pt for guys like Goodwin, iHead and DVD.

But with DAR and DMC this team is much better, one backcourt, one frontcourt, Moz at center as well.

Wanted Ilyasova, he's gone now. I guess Mark has faith in Acy and DMC?

How many are on the roster tho?

Maybe get KJ back?

Would be interesting if Marks would use that cap to get more. Aldrich?

Lets hope Nicholson can contribute, Jar is a must as well

[Vae Victus]

If Nicholson isnt traded and a starting level PF cant be signed (JaMychal Green is the best of the crop atm), then the team might as well give Nicholson a bunch of run as backup C. He can stretch the floor and did have some success in the past. Might as well try to rehabiliate his value and if he can recover his game that got him his current contract, then he can be a real nice stretch PF/C.

This BRK team has a whole bunch of players looking to redeem themselves. That mean they at the very least will be working their asses hard to get that respect back. Will all rebound? Hell no, but im sure as least half of em will.

Give Nicholson primary backup C, 3rd string PF mins and hope for the best. JAR starts in DLeague and Acy gets scrap mins. Lets shove him into the fire and see what happens.