The Zach Lavine Problem

[AirP.]

LaVine will never be better than Butler...

That is way too subjective and PER etc won't justify any arguement.

LaVine is better than Jimmy at the same age and all indications are LaVine has a similar work ethic to Jimmy.

At the end of the day you were never winning anything with Jimmy... His ball stopping ISO play, lockeroom/coach/leadership blunders, and the fact that he never made anyone better. His game does not fit the modern NBA.

LaVine will return to form and his high volume 3 ball will make him crazy efficient. Meanwhile Jimmy will be playing turtle ball with no shooters and 40mpg.

I think LaVine being better than Jimmy will happen and rather soon.

I doubt he'll ever be as good as Jimmy overall. The first 3 1/2 quarters he may be better offensively by being more efficient with a much better 3pt ball but will he ever be as clutch as Butler seems to be now? Will he ever be a defender you don't feel worried about putting on the other team's scoring wing? Luckily Dunn looks like he'll be able to guard SGs for LaVine.

Zach should be a really good player, scoring 20+ most years in his prime but I'm not too sure other then some highlight plays he'll be more then that and.... that's ok. Chicago moved up to get a 3pt shooting bigman and a defensive PG to play next to LaVine(which may have been Thib's plan also) to let Zach worry more about scoring, less about defending.

[Paxson43]

I would say because Lavine would play within a system that features his strengths and allows the head coach to not be censored by the team's best player with regard to the team's style of play. If we eventually win more than 42 games (Butler's high with Hoiberg) it will be because of team basketball, not one top 15 player.

It sounds like you're angling or are of the opinion that the Bulls only winning 42 games is somehow and indictment on Butler and not the rest of the organisation.

At least that's how I've interpreted it.

If LaVine is part of a Bulls team that wins more than 42 games, it's probably because the team he's on is superior to the one Butler played on. LaVine will never be better than Butler.

And tbf, what about 2015? Butler was the best player on the team that season. The Bulls won 50 games that year.

LaVine will never be better than Butler...

That is way too subjective and PER etc won't justify any arguement.

LaVine is better than Jimmy at the same age and all indications are LaVine has a similar work ethic to Jimmy.

At the end of the day you were never winning anything with Jimmy... His ball stopping ISO play, lockeroom/coach/leadership blunders, and the fact that he never made anyone better. His game does not fit the modern NBA.

LaVine will return to form and his high volume 3 ball will make him crazy efficient. Meanwhile Jimmy will be playing turtle ball with no shooters and 40mpg.

I think LaVine being better than Jimmy will happen and rather soon.

Jimmy didn't really come into his own until age 25. LaVine is much more advanced offensively right now (age 22) but has a TON of work to do defensively. Plus he's coming off an ACL so nothing is guaranteed. I'll be thrilled if he ends up being a better player than Jimmy (in my opinion he's a much better fit with what Hoiberg is trying to do), but I've got to pump the brakes on that right now until LaVine (God willing) comes back 100% healthy, never suffers any setbacks, and continues to get better every single year like he has since he entered the league in 2014.

[Chi town]

LaVine will never be better than Butler...

That is way too subjective and PER etc won't justify any arguement.

LaVine is better than Jimmy at the same age and all indications are LaVine has a similar work ethic to Jimmy.

At the end of the day you were never winning anything with Jimmy... His ball stopping ISO play, lockeroom/coach/leadership blunders, and the fact that he never made anyone better. His game does not fit the modern NBA.

LaVine will return to form and his high volume 3 ball will make him crazy efficient. Meanwhile Jimmy will be playing turtle ball with no shooters and 40mpg.

I think LaVine being better than Jimmy will happen and rather soon.

LaVine has no fear and IMO can get his shot easier than Jimmy due to his hops and lateral quickness. Is he as clutch as Jimmy... we shall see. Jimmy grew into that.


I doubt he'll ever be as good as Jimmy overall. The first 3 1/2 quarters he may be better offensively by being more efficient with a much better 3pt ball but will he ever be as clutch as Butler seems to be now? Will he ever be a defender you don't feel worried about putting on the other team's scoring wing? Luckily Dunn looks like he'll be able to guard SGs for LaVine.

Zach should be a really good player, scoring 20+ most years in his prime but I'm not too sure other then some highlight plays he'll be more then that and.... that's ok. Chicago moved up to get a 3pt shooting bigman and a defensive PG to play next to LaVine(which may have been Thib's plan also) to let Zach worry more about scoring, less about defending.

LaVine will def be better than Jimmy in his prime and Jimmys declining 30s.

It's also context... Jimmy won't be putting up huge numbers with Wiggins KAT and Teague taking his shots either. LaVine will have the green light and get lots more shots.

[AirP.]

LaVine will never be better than Butler...

That is way too subjective and PER etc won't justify any arguement.

LaVine is better than Jimmy at the same age and all indications are LaVine has a similar work ethic to Jimmy.

At the end of the day you were never winning anything with Jimmy... His ball stopping ISO play, lockeroom/coach/leadership blunders, and the fact that he never made anyone better. His game does not fit the modern NBA.

LaVine will return to form and his high volume 3 ball will make him crazy efficient. Meanwhile Jimmy will be playing turtle ball with no shooters and 40mpg.

I think LaVine being better than Jimmy will happen and rather soon.

LaVine has no fear and IMO can get his shot easier than Jimmy due to his hops and lateral quickness. Is he as clutch as Jimmy... we shall see. Jimmy grew into that.


I doubt he'll ever be as good as Jimmy overall. The first 3 1/2 quarters he may be better offensively by being more efficient with a much better 3pt ball but will he ever be as clutch as Butler seems to be now? Will he ever be a defender you don't feel worried about putting on the other team's scoring wing? Luckily Dunn looks like he'll be able to guard SGs for LaVine.

Zach should be a really good player, scoring 20+ most years in his prime but I'm not too sure other then some highlight plays he'll be more then that and.... that's ok. Chicago moved up to get a 3pt shooting bigman and a defensive PG to play next to LaVine(which may have been Thib's plan also) to let Zach worry more about scoring, less about defending.

LaVine will def be better than Jimmy in his prime and Jimmys declining 30s.

It's also context... Jimmy won't be putting up huge numbers with Wiggins KAT and Teague taking his shots either. LaVine will have the green light and get lots more shots.

So being better is just about scoring? I think I mentioned he probably would be better for the first 3 1/2 quarters of games too.

So in 3-5 years from now you'll think most of the NBA will think LaVine is better then Butler? I very well doubt that. Even in Butler's reduced role to win more games he'll be the better overall player. Luckily LaVine will be in the East and should be able to make some all-star teams.

[Paxson43]

The issue will be defense, of course, but still Hoiberg was able to field the 6th ranked defensive unit last season. Losing Butler will hurt, for sure, but we are also getting an upgrade at PG with Kris Dunn coming in and hopefully starting.

[Chi town]

LaVine has no fear and IMO can get his shot easier than Jimmy due to his hops and lateral quickness. Is he as clutch as Jimmy... we shall see. Jimmy grew into that.


I doubt he'll ever be as good as Jimmy overall. The first 3 1/2 quarters he may be better offensively by being more efficient with a much better 3pt ball but will he ever be as clutch as Butler seems to be now? Will he ever be a defender you don't feel worried about putting on the other team's scoring wing? Luckily Dunn looks like he'll be able to guard SGs for LaVine.

Zach should be a really good player, scoring 20+ most years in his prime but I'm not too sure other then some highlight plays he'll be more then that and.... that's ok. Chicago moved up to get a 3pt shooting bigman and a defensive PG to play next to LaVine(which may have been Thib's plan also) to let Zach worry more about scoring, less about defending.

LaVine will def be better than Jimmy in his prime and Jimmys declining 30s.

It's also context... Jimmy won't be putting up huge numbers with Wiggins KAT and Teague taking his shots either. LaVine will have the green light and get lots more shots.

So being better is just about scoring? I think I mentioned he probably would be better for the first 3 1/2 quarters of games too.

So in 3-5 years from now you'll think most of the NBA will think LaVine is better then Butler? I very well doubt that. Even in Butler's reduced role to win more games he'll be the better overall player. Luckily LaVine will be in the East and should be able to make some all-star teams.

Good points...

Jimmys D isn't what it used to be and will only decline as he ages. He has logged big mins and his style of play takes a lot out of him. I think he will only get more injured.

As for LaVine... playing in the east helps. Thibs D system is really complicated and tough to learn. I think LaVine e can be an above average defender especially defending the weaker wing next to Dunn.

I think after year 3 LaVine will be still be trending up and Jimmy trending down. Don't know if he will overtake Jimmy or not. I do know that "LaVine will never be better than Jimmy" is false considering their age differential. LaVine will be in his prime when Jimmy will be nearing retirement. LaVine could be better sooner.

[Chi town]

The issue will be defense, of course, but still Hoiberg was able to field the 6th ranked defensive unit last season. Losing Butler will hurt, for sure, but we are also getting an upgrade at PG with Kris Dunn coming in and hopefully starting.

This cannot be overstated. Boylen helped Val a ton and he turned Niko into a plus defender.


If Fred can get them to play D like last year and get those 3s going in we will be in lots of games late... but still lose because we are so young.


BTW... PG defense is more important than rim Defense in this NBA. I'd rank PG D, then PNR D from a big, then rim protection as most important. Even rebounding is more tricky now with 3s flying and long rebounds abounding.

[AirP.]

Good points...

Jimmys D isn't what it used to be and will only decline as he ages. He has logged big mins and his style of play takes a lot out of him. I think he will only get more injured.

As for LaVine... playing in the east helps. Thibs D system is really complicated and tough to learn. I think LaVine e can be an above average defender especially defending the weaker wing next to Dunn.

I think after year 3 LaVine will be still be trending up and Jimmy trending down. Don't know if he will overtake Jimmy or not. I do know that "LaVine will never be better than Jimmy" is false considering their age differential. LaVine will be in his prime when Jimmy will be nearing retirement. LaVine could be better sooner.

Well yeah, at some point Butler will be trending down, but as someone who works hard on his game and knows the importance of keeping his body in shape he'll probably a top player till his mid 30s. LaVine... if he has any major injury that takes away some of his athletic ability it will hurt his game greatly(luckily this injury happened when he was young to get past it easier). Also, since LaVine's game is built around his athletic ability, he'll be hit much harder in his early 30s and have a more steep decline then Butler should have because of how each one plays.

Lavine should have a good 8-10 great years in him, Butler should have 7-9... yeah, I see Butler still being a top 30 player at age 34.

[Paxson43]

Since Butler started playing more than 26 minutes per game in the NBA, he has missed 15, 17, 15, and 6 games in those respective seasons.

I don't think his bruising style lends to him having a long/healthy career, but we'll see.

[Chi town]

Good points...

Jimmys D isn't what it used to be and will only decline as he ages. He has logged big mins and his style of play takes a lot out of him. I think he will only get more injured.

As for LaVine... playing in the east helps. Thibs D system is really complicated and tough to learn. I think LaVine e can be an above average defender especially defending the weaker wing next to Dunn.

I think after year 3 LaVine will be still be trending up and Jimmy trending down. Don't know if he will overtake Jimmy or not. I do know that "LaVine will never be better than Jimmy" is false considering their age differential. LaVine will be in his prime when Jimmy will be nearing retirement. LaVine could be better sooner.

Well yeah, at some point Butler will be trending down, but as someone who works hard on his game and knows the importance of keeping his body in shape he'll probably a top player till his mid 30s. LaVine... if he has any major injury that takes away some of his athletic ability it will hurt his game greatly(luckily this injury happened when he was young to get past it easier). Also, since LaVine's game is built around his athletic ability, he'll be hit much harder in his early 30s and have a more steep decline then Butler should have because of how each one plays.

Lavine should have a good 8-10 great years in him, Butler should have 7-9... yeah, I see Butler still being a top 30 player at age 34.

Nope. Don't see it that way at all. See the opposite actually.

LaVine is a shooter. His career and level of play should age well.

Jimmy plays very similar to Wade. See him breaking down and taking games to rest just like Wade.

[Chi town]

Since Butler started playing more than 26 minutes per game in the NBA, he has missed 15, 17, 15, and 6 games in those respective seasons.

I don't think his bruising style lends to him having a long/healthy career, but we'll see.

Exactly.

[AirP.]

Nope. Don't see it that way at all. See the opposite actually.

LaVine is a shooter. His career and level of play should age well.

Jimmy plays very similar to Wade. See him breaking down and taking games to rest just like Wade.

Well, it'll be interesting to those nba experts eating crow since nearly all of them thought Chicago got robbed(well, the word I kept reading was "fleeced").

[TheSuzerain]

Butler **** on Lavine forever and always.

[MC3]

Well, it'll be interesting to those nba experts eating crow since nearly all of them thought Chicago got robbed(well, the word I kept reading was "fleeced").

We were. That always happens when you give away your best player in a trade. You never get equal value deal. And majority of time team getting better player now wins a trade. We would never get Lavine if he didnt get ACL or if Dunn didnt had bad rookie season. We essentially got worse regardless of return. But we decided to rebuild, so it doesnt matter to us that we got worse now if we can be better later. For us it's more about timeline. We reset the clock. Both Lavine and Dunn will help us not today, but 5 years from now. And in meantime we will be bad enough so we can get enough talent with our pics to be 5 years from now in better situation than we were with Jimmy.

Maybe 5 years from this wont be viewed as fleeced trade and it will end up similar to Pau Gasol deal to Lakers. Who knows. Grizzlies got Marc from it and they were happy how that trade turned up for them eventually. Grizzlies were so bad at tanking during those years they wasted all their picks beside Conley, but they still eventually 5 years after Pau, put decent playoffs team build around those two.

[Chi town]

Nope. Don't see it that way at all. See the opposite actually.

LaVine is a shooter. His career and level of play should age well.

Jimmy plays very similar to Wade. See him breaking down and taking games to rest just like Wade.

Well, it'll be interesting to those nba experts eating crow since nearly all of them thought Chicago got robbed(well, the word I kept reading was "fleeced").

Before they saw what George went for. What Cousins went for.

[AirP.]

Nope. Don't see it that way at all. See the opposite actually.

LaVine is a shooter. His career and level of play should age well.

Jimmy plays very similar to Wade. See him breaking down and taking games to rest just like Wade.

Well, it'll be interesting to those nba experts eating crow since nearly all of them thought Chicago got robbed(well, the word I kept reading was "fleeced").

Before they saw what George went for. What Cousins went for.

Right, the difference was that Cousins wasn't up for auction, only a few teams were contacted in a small timeframe(so the owner couldn't change his mind in time) and Indiana wasn't in a position of power with trading George since he's let it be known he wants to go to LA next summer, basically teams expected they'd just be renting him. I think Butler stays in Minnesota as long as Thibs wants him there.

[Rerisen]

LaVine is a shooter. His career and level of play should age well.

Jimmy plays very similar to Wade. See him breaking down and taking games to rest just like Wade.

I'm struggling with an argument that LaVine is such a better fit for a modern offense. Considering LaVine actually made his offense worse last year. Yet we want to increase his Usage? Right now he has the profile of a chucker that gets his offense at the expense of the team.

If we go back in time to 2015, Jimmy had the same Usage as LaVine had last year, and comparing those 2 seasons, both guys averaged right at 3 Assists per 36, so its not like LaVine has been generating more team playmaking per possessions he is using.

And its actually quite worrying that he's no more efficient than Jimmy despite the better 3 ball, and leaves you wondering just what areas he is going to have to improve in to become a big offensive plus like Jimmy was to an offense.

Unless LaVine really discovers how to be more of a PG or playmaker, he's just going to be a volume scorer in the mold of someone like Rudy Gay. And that's not a big offensive piece on a great team.

[Chi town]

LaVine is a shooter. His career and level of play should age well.

Jimmy plays very similar to Wade. See him breaking down and taking games to rest just like Wade.

I'm struggling with an argument that LaVine is such a better fit for a modern offense. Considering LaVine actually made his offense worse last year. Yet we want to increase his Usage? Right now he has the profile of a chucker that gets his offense at the expense of the team.

If we go back in time to 2015, Jimmy had the same Usage as LaVine had last year, and comparing those 2 seasons, both guys averaged right at 3 Assists per 36, so its not like LaVine has been generating more team playmaking per possessions he is using.

And its actually quite worrying that he's no more efficient than Jimmy despite the better 3 ball, and leaves you wondering just what areas he is going to have to improve in to become a big offensive plus like Jimmy was to an offense.

Unless LaVine really discovers how to be more of a PG or playmaker, he's just going to be a volume scorer in the mold of someone like Rudy Gay. And that's not a big offensive piece on a great team.

I think you are underestimating high percentage high value 3s and the spacing of the floor. Lavine gets his shots but he doesn't hold the ball or play hero ball. He's decisive.

[Rerisen]

I think you are underestimating high percentage high value 3s and the spacing of the floor. Lavine gets his shots but he doesn't hold the ball or play hero ball. He's decisive.

And yet the team offense was worse with him on floor. How do you explain that? Style isn't more important than results.

Here's the difference I see as far as in the lead role.

Butler wasn't a great visionary passer, but he was more than willing when put in the lead role, and most importantly, drew double teams via the fear of him getting to the rim, and this made things happen for an offense and opened up shots for others.

Zach by comparison, scores far more of his points beyond the arc, yet we know on ball pull ups aren't great offense generators, so usually means someone else has to create to get him open for those threes.

So while yes he can space the floor and hit volume 3s, this means his ideal role would be as a 2nd or 3rd option, not our main guy.

[DanTown8587]

Since Butler started playing more than 26 minutes per game in the NBA, he has missed 15, 17, 15, and 6 games in those respective seasons.

I don't think his bruising style lends to him having a long/healthy career, but we'll see.

Since Zach Lavine started playing 30 minutes a night, he blew out his ACL.