Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal
SuperDario wrote:Is this where I express my disappointment on Wilt being criminally underrated? #6 is mind-boggling to me.
JoeMalburg wrote:RCM88x wrote:Vote: Jerry West
Don't have time to provide much of an explanation here (again) but:
Jerry is most certainly the unluckiest star in NBA history, always going up against the Celtics or dealing with injuries and poor performances by his teammates despite often heroic performances by himself. To me, I think a lot of the argument against West and for Russell over the years has simply been titles... which by and large are often more a function of supporting cast than actual performance by the star player, especially when West usually played at an elite level and far exceeded what should have been asked of him to win.
He ranks 11th in RS WS/48 and a very impressive 7th in PS WS/48. He was also extremely efficient for his time and position, posting a career TS% of .55 in the RS and .541 in the PS, and also ranks in the top 25 all time for both RS and Playoff PER, a feat rare among perimeter players of his era.
To me, Jerry was the guy that made LA the great team they were in the late 60s and early 70s, Wilt was great still, but often times was not as productive as his younger self and at times was not able to lead teams like he once did. Jerry was the constant, reliable performer for that team and despite his efforts more often than not came up short due to simply playing against better team to little fault of his own.
2nd Vote: Kevin Garnett
Curious if you or anyone else would have West in the top ten if...
A) Selvy's game seven shot falls in regulation vs. the Celtics in '62 and West gets another ring.
B) The Lakers don't collapse in the second half of game seven in 1969 and West gets another ring.
C) Willis Reed doesn't hit those two early jumpers and propel the Knicks past a superior Lakers team in game seven of the 1970 Finals and West gets another ring.
And also, what if all three go Jerrys way? Is he viewed like Magic?
I think West would be in my top six all-time if those three games turned out different and everything else stayed the same.
LookToShoot wrote:Melo is the only player that makes the Rockets watchable for the basketball purists. Otherwise it would just be three point shots and pick n roll.
ardee wrote:Pablo Novi wrote:mdonnelly1989 wrote:
I applaud you on your knowledge of those ERA's. Basically the way you explained Dr. J sounds identical to MJ.
Dr. J has been known quite often to be the original MJ from what I've heard as well.
You have shined a new light on me with Dr. J and I suppose he was better than his stats would suggest relative to Jerry West and Oscar because as 27 year that and what I've heard/read are the only things that I can go on.
Thanx for the compliments.
Before Dr J, the "original" creator of hangtime was Elgin Baylor - although seemingly (as I remember things) a lot of his hanging didn't end in dunks as much as in late-shot flip-ins - he was noted for unusually strong wrists - so he could get those shots off and in really late. He "invented" all kinds of moves and shots approaching the rim.
btw, my All-Time FAVORITE players were/are Jerry West & Elgin Baylor - who are why I've been a life-time (58 years) Lakers fan.
Back then, it was a horribly nasty racist age - as a young man, raised in the home of an exceptionally TOLERANT dad; the nastiness just shocked the bleep out of me. (I went to high school outside of Boston and got to attend a number of C's games at the Gaaaden - that THEIR fans would boo the great Bill Russell (screaming out the "N" word at him and the other C's black players) turned me into a non-Celtics fan for life.
During highschool, I had almost "negative" "leaping" ability; so at 5'8" I was never gonna make the varsity team (although I played for several hours EVERY day. I'd go with the team to all our away games. At EVERY away game there'd be:
TWO sets of cheerleaders, leading two SEPARATE sets of fans, seated in two SEPARATE seating sections.
When a black player scored, the black cheerleaders would rise and lead the black fans. Meanwhile, the white cheerleaders and fans remained silent (if not scowling). Then, when a white player scored; it'd be the exact same thing but in reverse.
My dad would take our family some 2-4 times a year on trips into the Deep South. He'd take me off to the side before EVERY trip (as his eldest son); and he'd say to me, "Son, you know the routine; but here we go again. You will see stuff that will enrage the bleep out of you, scandalize you. But you will say NOTHING and do NOTHING - or you'll get us all killed. So, you either agree or you're not going with us.
And what we saw was just horrible. Gang bangs of 5 or more cowards on one or two black guys. Segregation EVERYWHERE.
And perhaps the worst, was what I called the "3 Bathroom 'System'": one for "men"; one for "women" and one labeled "Colored" - which was an absolute abomination: no running water, no electricity, never cleaned. These were as far removed into the far corner of the lot as was possible because of the stench and the huge black swarm of flies.
I had pretty much given up hope that the two races would ever get along.
I had had the great fortune to have seen the Harlem Globetrotters LIVE a number of times during the 1959-60 season; so I "experienced" their incredible Point Guard, Wilt Chamberlain. I "followed" him into the NBA (which was not nearly the draw the 'Trotters were back then.
And then, a couple of years later, I experienced West-Baylor. (There was also "O"-Jerry Lucas; but they were not equals on the court in terms of ability - so those two didn't move me nearly as much as did Jerry & Elgin). It was the virtual equality of skills of Mr. Inside and Mr. Outside, their TEAM-work, their artistry, their "bi-racial" harmony that pulled me out of my youthful "desperation" of thinking things would never change.
Those two caused me to decide to dedicate ALL my free time for the rest of my life to heavy-duty peace-justice activism.
So that's both why I've been a Lakers fan ever since West came into the League and joined Baylor; and why, they are really the only two players for whom I have a personal bias in favor of.
Which makes it not easy for me to argue ANYONE over either of them - even Dr J; but he really was a phenom.
Mind if I ask how old you are?
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Pablo Novi wrote:mdonnelly1989 wrote:Pablo Novi wrote:It's just such a pity that Dr J (and the ABA) played to such small audiences (and, much worse) had minuscule TV coverage.
There was nothing on offense that Dr J wasn't the best ever up to that point in history, imo. His handle was just phenomenal.
Picture squeezing between two defenders with no room to spare; yet dribbling between his legs to do so.
The "world would go silent and gawky-eyed" when it was time for him to go iso. No defender had a chance to stop him. Entire teams couldn't stop his drives to the basket - where he often made spectacularly delicious dunks; or truly unbelievable moves.
Except for one dunk by Elgin Baylor over Wilt (where he floated across the key, Wilt came in to squash his shot - and Elgin flipped the ball to his other hand and hammered it home); ALL my All-Time favorite dunks are Dr J's - he was that flashy, that skilled, that athletic, that gifted, that ... aesthetically pleasing an artist.
Against the definitely favored Nuggets in the last ABA Finals, led on defense by arguably THE best defender in either League in Bobby Jones, Dr J just went off, iirc, 37.7 ppg (and played killed D to boot).
I applaud you on your knowledge of those ERA's. Basically the way you explained Dr. J sounds identical to MJ.
Dr. J has been known quite often to be the original MJ from what I've heard as well.
You have shined a new light on me with Dr. J and I suppose he was better than his stats would suggest relative to Jerry West and Oscar because as 27 year that and what I've heard/read are the only things that I can go on.
Thanx for the compliments.
Before Dr J, the "original" creator of hangtime was Elgin Baylor - although seemingly (as I remember things) a lot of his hanging didn't end in dunks as much as in late-shot flip-ins - he was noted for unusually strong wrists - so he could get those shots off and in really late. He "invented" all kinds of moves and shots approaching the rim.
btw, my All-Time FAVORITE players were/are Jerry West & Elgin Baylor - who are why I've been a life-time (58 years) Lakers fan.
Back then, it was a horribly nasty racist age - as a young man, raised in the home of an exceptionally TOLERANT dad; the nastiness just shocked the bleep out of me. (I went to high school outside of Boston and got to attend a number of C's games at the Gaaaden - that THEIR fans would boo the great Bill Russell (screaming out the "N" word at him and the other C's black players) turned me into a non-Celtics fan for life.
During highschool, I had almost "negative" "leaping" ability; so at 5'8" I was never gonna make the varsity team (although I played for several hours EVERY day. I'd go with the team to all our away games. At EVERY away game there'd be:
TWO sets of cheerleaders, leading two SEPARATE sets of fans, seated in two SEPARATE seating sections.
When a black player scored, the black cheerleaders would rise and lead the black fans. Meanwhile, the white cheerleaders and fans remained silent (if not scowling). Then, when a white player scored; it'd be the exact same thing but in reverse.
My dad would take our family some 2-4 times a year on trips into the Deep South. He'd take me off to the side before EVERY trip (as his eldest son); and he'd say to me, "Son, you know the routine; but here we go again. You will see stuff that will enrage the bleep out of you, scandalize you. But you will say NOTHING and do NOTHING - or you'll get us all killed. So, you either agree or you're not going with us.
And what we saw was just horrible. Gang bangs of 5 or more cowards on one or two black guys. Segregation EVERYWHERE.
And perhaps the worst, was what I called the "3 Bathroom 'System'": one for "men"; one for "women" and one labeled "Colored" - which was an absolute abomination: no running water, no electricity, never cleaned. These were as far removed into the far corner of the lot as was possible because of the stench and the huge black swarm of flies.
I had pretty much given up hope that the two races would ever get along.
I had had the great fortune to have seen the Harlem Globetrotters LIVE a number of times during the 1959-60 season; so I "experienced" their incredible Point Guard, Wilt Chamberlain. I "followed" him into the NBA (which was not nearly the draw the 'Trotters were back then.
And then, a couple of years later, I experienced West-Baylor. (There was also "O"-Jerry Lucas; but they were not equals on the court in terms of ability - so those two didn't move me nearly as much as did Jerry & Elgin). It was the virtual equality of skills of Mr. Inside and Mr. Outside, their TEAM-work, their artistry, their "bi-racial" harmony that pulled me out of my youthful "desperation" of thinking things would never change.
Those two caused me to decide to dedicate ALL my free time for the rest of my life to heavy-duty peace-justice activism.
So that's both why I've been a Lakers fan ever since West came into the League and joined Baylor; and why, they are really the only two players for whom I have a personal bias in favor of.
Which makes it not easy for me to argue ANYONE over either of them - even Dr J; but he really was a phenom.
SuperDario wrote:Is this where I express my disappointment on Wilt being criminally underrated? #6 is mind-boggling to me.
Wow! Thanks for that story was really inspiring actually.I'm white and racism has def had it's mark throughout my family however, it never completely dominated my mind growing up as I began having african american friends at a very young age.
I feel racism if you look at where it was back in the 50's and 60's is not even close to where it is now. I know that the media will magnify racism stories but in terms of the overall population. You gave me a great story I may tell in an article. My second line of passion aside from sports is spirituality and I want to shed this light to people and show where we currently are. In fact, because it's much less racist I think race's as a whole are going to transform throughout the next few generations and beyond.
I'm going to DM you and ask you some questions about those times.
Winsome Gerbil wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:
Had no separation from...a bunch of guys already voted in.
I keep wondering as to when it will strike people as a tad odd that amazingly nearly 50% of the Top 12 NBA players of all time apparently played within the last 5 years. And I can assume that the Dirk thing will start up soon too, and maybe we can get a few spare votes for Wade, CP3, Curry and KD and take a run at half of the Top 20.
Pablo Novi wrote: ...Were Wilt to have been on the C's, they would have won as many Chips; while if Russell had been on Wilt's teams, they would have won LESS Chips and less Reg. Seas. games.. . .
Keep in mind, the REPUTATION of the League then NOWADAYS is that Wilt dominated a bunch of shortish white guys. Yet, with the help of the entire C's all-world DEFENSE, Wilt only scored about 5 ppg less on Russell than he did on the rest of the League's Centers. I don't question Russell as being THE #1 DEFENSIVE force ever; but what does this then say about Wilt?...