The Zach Lavine Problem

[AirP.]

Lavine is much better than shooter than Rose ever was at any point in career and should only improve in that area. That by itself extends his usefulness pass the age where his athleticism would dip. He is doesn't rely on his athleticism. That is whole point. Just because he is a flashy dunker doesn't mean that is all there is to his game. People act this guy is finished product when he has improved every year. I think he will be multiple all-star if healthy. He does't have much competition in the East outside of Derozan at SG.

Being effective doesn't negate a drop in production.

He should be improving, he's only 22. Maybe one day he'll even be an average defender.

I think he'll end up being an all-star at some point but since I think his production will drop in his early 30s more then Butler's will(since his game is more strength based) I guess that's seen as saying he's trash?

I like LaVine, I'm ok with the trade for both sides. I guess I'm sorry thinking LaVine has about 10 good/great years left in him instead of 13-15.

Seeing how Jimmy performed with a slightly bummed knee in the playoffs is a good indicator of how he will perform in his 30s, which is ugly. And that was while he was guarded primarily by a 6'2" guard.

Um... ok.

[Rerisen]

Rerisen I've watched wolves games and talked with many wolves fans. This is one of those things advance stats suck without context moments.

Lavine was their best shooter out of main scorers and made argument was who should be the SG Wiggins or Lavine. Many saw Lavine rising up over Wiggins as the better offensive player.

The hope with Zach is that he gets better. He hasn't been an especially good player so far. Heck, Minny had 3 great young talents in Kat, Wiggins and Zach and still had a losing record, so that tells you something.

I bet if we asked Bulls fans what they thought of Zach before this trade, I really doubt 8 out of 10 would be as as gushing and optimistic as so many are now simply because he put on a Bulls uniform. But that's how it goes.

He has a lot of raw talent certainly, but we shouldn't try to paper over where he is now, or far how he has to go in order to become a foundational piece of any serious rebuild.

I think his upside is All-Star capable, though I'd put very long odds against superstar at this point (most even young entry superstars are showing more by 3rd year). If you think about us losing a top 10ish player, and not even getting back one currently as good as say prime Deng, or anyone who would rank Top 50 in the league, well we have a long way to go.

[WindyCityBorn]

Rerisen I've watched wolves games and talked with many wolves fans. This is one of those things advance stats suck without context moments.

Lavine was their best shooter out of main scorers and made argument was who should be the SG Wiggins or Lavine. Many saw Lavine rising up over Wiggins as the better offensive player.

The hope with Zach is that he gets better. He hasn't been an especially good player so far. Heck, Minny had 3 great young talents in Kat, Wiggins and Zach and still had a losing record, so that tells you something.

I bet if we asked Bulls fans what they thought of Zach before this trade, I really doubt 8 out of 10 would be as as gushing and optimistic as so many are now simply because he put on a Bulls uniform. But that's how it goes.

He has a lot of raw talent certainly, but we shouldn't try to paper over where he is now, or far how he has to go in order to become a foundational piece of any serious rebuild.

I think his upside is All-Star capable, though I'd put very long odds against superstar at this point (most even young entry superstars are showing more by 3rd year). If you think about us losing a top 10ish player, and not even getting back one currently as good as say prime Deng, or anyone who would rank Top 50 in the league, well we have a long way to go.

What good is a top 15 talent with no supporting cast? Jimmy needed to be better than he was justify keeping him. Lavine is going to be part of nucleus of young talented players. Comparing Jimmy to Zack in a vacuum is worthless.

[WindyCityBorn]

Being effective doesn't negate a drop in production.

He should be improving, he's only 22. Maybe one day he'll even be an average defender.

I think he'll end up being an all-star at some point but since I think his production will drop in his early 30s more then Butler's will(since his game is more strength based) I guess that's seen as saying he's trash?

I like LaVine, I'm ok with the trade for both sides. I guess I'm sorry thinking LaVine has about 10 good/great years left in him instead of 13-15.

Seeing how Jimmy performed with a slightly bummed knee in the playoffs is a good indicator of how he will perform in his 30s, which is ugly. And that was while he was guarded primarily by a 6'2" guard.

Um... ok.

Nice rebuttal there.

[kingkirk]

I bet if we asked Bulls fans what they thought of Zach before this trade, I really doubt 8 out of 10 would be as as gushing and optimistic as so many are now simply because he put on a Bulls uniform. But that's how it goes.

This is exactly what is going on. It's the same thing that is happening with Dunn and Markannen. We're overlooking their (serious) flaws because they're new pieces. I get it. Fresh faces bring fresh optimism, but that shouldn't mean we overlook certain obvious and real constraints these players are likely to have.

[Jcool0]

I bet if we asked Bulls fans what they thought of Zach before this trade, I really doubt 8 out of 10 would be as as gushing and optimistic as so many are now simply because he put on a Bulls uniform. But that's how it goes.

This is exactly what is going on. It's the same thing that is happening with Dunn and Markannen. We're overlooking their (serious) flaws because they're new pieces. I get it. Fresh faces bring fresh optimism, but that shouldn't mean we overlook certain obvious and real constraints these players are likely to have.

And others seem to think because they feel a certain way about a player everyone needs to feel that way.

[kingkirk]

And others seem to think because they feel a certain way about a player everyone needs to feel that way.

You're confusing giving an opinion with trying to brainwashing people, as if we can enough to do so.

[MC3]

I bet if we asked Bulls fans what they thought of Zach before this trade, I really doubt 8 out of 10 would be as as gushing and optimistic as so many are now simply because he put on a Bulls uniform. But that's how it goes.

This is exactly what is going on. It's the same thing that is happening with Dunn and Markannen. We're overlooking their (serious) flaws because they're new pieces. I get it. Fresh faces bring fresh optimism, but that shouldn't mean we overlook certain obvious and real constraints these players are likely to have.

It's only thing we have. Are we going to start call on people who are optimistic or those who try feel themselves better making optimistic prognosis for Bulls future? Even if it is likely false one. Do you want this board to be in state of depression even during offseason? Let people be, otherwise this board will slowly start to die.

[WindyCityBorn]

I bet if we asked Bulls fans what they thought of Zach before this trade, I really doubt 8 out of 10 would be as as gushing and optimistic as so many are now simply because he put on a Bulls uniform. But that's how it goes.

This is exactly what is going on. It's the same thing that is happening with Dunn and Markannen. We're overlooking their (serious) flaws because they're new pieces. I get it. Fresh faces bring fresh optimism, but that shouldn't mean we overlook certain obvious and real constraints these players are likely to have.

That isn't what is going is on with me. Don't lump everyone that disagrees with you into some delusional group.

[Paxson43]

It's the same thing both ways, I'm still of the opinion if we traded for LaVine and Butler was still here, some of the fans here that are "hating" on LaVine would be in love with him. It's just how it goes.

[detlef_schrempf]

I bet if we asked Bulls fans what they thought of Zach before this trade, I really doubt 8 out of 10 would be as as gushing and optimistic as so many are now simply because he put on a Bulls uniform. But that's how it goes.

This is exactly what is going on. It's the same thing that is happening with Dunn and Markannen. We're overlooking their (serious) flaws because they're new pieces. I get it. Fresh faces bring fresh optimism, but that shouldn't mean we overlook certain obvious and real constraints these players are likely to have.

Some people prefer to be optimistic, instead of living with such negativity as you do. All of your posts. Just stop being a fan; it would do you good.

[kulaz3000]

Guys, stop with the generalizations and personal reactions.

It's a sensitive time for all Bulls fans, and everyone has a right to their own opinion regardless of which side they stand. Some have an optimistic view, others have a more skeptical view - but there is no right way or wrong way to view the current situation the Bulls are in.

Stating which opinion you have is one thing, but lets not create sides and as a result create division among Bulls fans. Might I remind you, that even people who are skeptical with the direction are still Bulls fans, just the same for Bulls fans who approach this change and the new players in a more positive light.

Let's keep the personal attacks out of the arguments. If you disagree, simply state why and if you can't do it in a mature manner, you have the choice of simply not responding.

[kingkirk]

Some people prefer to be optimistic, instead of living with such negativity as you do. All of your posts. Just stop being a fan; it would do you good.

I don't view my posts as negative, though. I think they're fact-based and driven in reality of what has happened and what is most likely to occur. You probably view them as negative because I don't think LaVine, Dunn and Markkanen are much good. I also don't believe in pretending in falsehoods for the sake of optimism.

Things are as they are, so we should call them as we see them.

[MC3]

Some people prefer to be optimistic, instead of living with such negativity as you do. All of your posts. Just stop being a fan; it would do you good.

I don't view my posts as negative, though. I think they're fact-based and driven in reality of what has happened and what is most likely to occur. You probably view them as negative because I don't think LaVine, Dunn and Markkanen are much good. I also don't believe in pretending in falsehoods for the sake of optimism.

Things are as they are, so we should call them as we see them.

We can't possible know that unless we see them all together on the floor in actual NBA game in Bulls uniform. We can judge them based on things we know. Lavine was best young SG prospect in the league till he had ACL, Dunn had bad rookie year (offense wise), Markkanen yet need to play NBA game. You dont think much about them, ok it's your opinion.

[kingkirk]

We can't possible know that unless we see them all together on the floor in actual NBA game in Bulls uniform. We can judge them based on things we know. Lavine was best young SG prospect in the league till he had ACL, Dunn had bad rookie year (offense wise), Markkanen yet need to play NBA game.

Well, yeah, which is pretty significant, and it's what I've been arguing. He can be good, but he just blew out his knee.

[Red Larrivee]

It's the same thing both ways, I'm still of the opinion if we traded for LaVine and Butler was still here, some of the fans here that are "hating" on LaVine would be in love with him. It's just how it goes.

If Butler was still here, we probably wouldn't get anything close to the value we did.

I didn't want to see him traded, but that's the reality. The team took the highest offer.

[AirP.]

Seeing how Jimmy performed with a slightly bummed knee in the playoffs is a good indicator of how he will perform in his 30s, which is ugly. And that was while he was guarded primarily by a 6'2" guard.

Um... ok.

Nice rebuttal there.

Just tired or arguing with fans who overvalue their own players, that's all.

[fleet]

I bet if we asked Bulls fans what they thought of Zach before this trade, I really doubt 8 out of 10 would be as as gushing and optimistic as so many are now simply because he put on a Bulls uniform. But that's how it goes.

This is exactly what is going on. It's the same thing that is happening with Dunn and Markannen. We're overlooking their (serious) flaws because they're new pieces. I get it. Fresh faces bring fresh optimism, but that shouldn't mean we overlook certain obvious and real constraints these players are likely to have.

It's only thing we have. Are we going to start call on people who are optimistic or those who try feel themselves better making optimistic prognosis for Bulls future? Even if it is likely false one. Do you want this board to be in state of depression even during offseason? Let people be, otherwise this board will slowly start to die.

if the Bulls cared what fans think, it would have been the optimists that enabled all this crap we have seen. The board should have been depressed imo, bad stuff was happening. Optimists didn't want to face any of it. If they want to keep it up, so be it. I'm certainly not advocating depression. I'm advocating holding this team accountable. Optimists go farther in life. That's also reality. But if they get stuck with bad partners, I believe it does no service not to challenge.

Now, I share the outlook that Zach Lavine is not that good really. In that he should not be regarded as a centerpiece of a rebuild, or even guaranteed a roster spot in 2 years. The FO is selling this now. Is anybody interested in challenging this? I was wrong about my belief that Lavine would be flipped at the deadline before the Bulls would pay him mega millions to play on a bad team. Doesn't seem right. Granted he is certainly young enough to grow into those mega millions, and perhaps the centerpiece of a great team. Not going to preclude it. But I'm not betting on it. Should people be cheerleading for this in confidence? I think it's crazy. But the Bulls have almost done nothing I wanted them to do until the Butler trade. They want to put all their chips on Lavine, that's their business. As usual, they seem to have no long term vision anymore,or at least one that is based on solid decision-making. That's they way the approached the draft in not considering a point guard because they had Dunn and Payne in place already battling for the starting job. Is an optimist picking up on this?

[Hangtime84]

This is exactly what is going on. It's the same thing that is happening with Dunn and Markannen. We're overlooking their (serious) flaws because they're new pieces. I get it. Fresh faces bring fresh optimism, but that shouldn't mean we overlook certain obvious and real constraints these players are likely to have.

It's only thing we have. Are we going to start call on people who are optimistic or those who try feel themselves better making optimistic prognosis for Bulls future? Even if it is likely false one. Do you want this board to be in state of depression even during offseason? Let people be, otherwise this board will slowly start to die.

if the Bulls cared what fans think, it would have been the optimists that enabled all this crap we have seen. The board should have been depressed imo, bad stuff was happening. Optimists didn't want to face any of it. If they want to keep it up, so be it. I'm certainly not advocating depression. I'm advocating holding this team accountable. Optimists go farther in life. That's also reality. But if they get stuck with bad partners, I believe it does no service not to challenge.

Right now there's a few groups

(1) Fans who lost trust in both Gar & Pax
(2) Fans who believe a new regime should take over
(3) Rein$dorph hate committee
(4) Fans who hold out faith in Pax
(5) Fans who believe this entire organization needs an overhaul
(6) Player fans

There's also the issue that people feel they must be RIGHT.

Imo we are in wait and see mode.

All I want is ownership to allow the tank to happen. And stop handcuffing their FO with unreasonable demands and emphasis player development over profits.

[fleet]

It's only thing we have. Are we going to start call on people who are optimistic or those who try feel themselves better making optimistic prognosis for Bulls future? Even if it is likely false one. Do you want this board to be in state of depression even during offseason? Let people be, otherwise this board will slowly start to die.

if the Bulls cared what fans think, it would have been the optimists that enabled all this crap we have seen. The board should have been depressed imo, bad stuff was happening. Optimists didn't want to face any of it. If they want to keep it up, so be it. I'm certainly not advocating depression. I'm advocating holding this team accountable. Optimists go farther in life. That's also reality. But if they get stuck with bad partners, I believe it does no service not to challenge.

Right now there's a few groups

(1) Fans who lost trust in both Gar & Pax
(2) Fans who believe a new regime should take over
(3) Rein$dorph hate committee
(4) Fans who hold out faith in Pax
(5) Fans who believe this entire organization needs an overhaul
(6) Player fans

There's also the issue that people feel they must be RIGHT.

Imo we are in wait and see mode.

All I want is ownership to allow the tank to happen. And stop handcuffing their FO with unreasonable demands and emphasis player development over profits.

There's nowhere to go but the high lottery at this point. I think they ought to emphasise player development over profits. I may have read that last part wrong.

No FO should be handcuffed by anything which is working for a franchise that is among the most valuable. However, I wouldn't overlook the FO recent performance record and only blame ownership. These guys have made their own calls. They may have had some interference, but that won't explain everything.

Impatient by nature, I was not happy with the White Sox so-called rebuild. It was taking longer than I expected. Looked to me that Sale and Eaton were traded because they were critics, and the FO was stopping there, and using an excuse of no proper Quintana return. And Frazier, Melky, Robertson, all of it. It felt like a typical Reinsdorf administration move. After all it looked as if they were starting to rebuild the Bulls last summer by following up on the Rose trade with a Butler trade... and then went ahead and pulled the plug on the rebuild with the inexplicable Rondo and Wade signings. Quintana was also recently traded though, and while they haven't moved anyone else, I finally believe they will. You bet, the Bulls have to go all in instead of half measures. That's how they built the treadmill in both franchises.

Hell they can sign Lavine to one of these mega deals if they feel they should in the midst of all the chaos. But stop selling me on this centerpiece stuff. It's scaring me. Their evaluation/diagnosis/execution skills are highly suspect. That should be obvious. I guess it makes me a pessimist. On these current guys at least. Ownership is the head of the snake, and Bulls failure is upon the city, FO. I want accountability, and no soup for me. That is how ownership fails too.