I still prefer John Collins over TJ Leaf

[basketballwacko2]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246928/John-Collins-Used-Summer-League-To-Prove-He-Should-Have-Been-Picked-Higher

Collins was 2nd in the summer league in PER at 32.5. TJ came in 211th at 13.3. Who's ready to play in the NBA?

I have a feeling Leaf is gonna turn into another wasted draft pick, as in Brandon Rush, Hansbrough, Solo Hill, Plumlee.

[Joel Embust]

I get where you're coming from, but it still was just Summer League. Some guys perform, some guys don't.

Collins was impressive on offense, but he did struggle on defense. He's hit his open jumpers, but it's SL. Everybody's getting and hitting open looks. I like Collins and I do believe he has a bright future and he should've been picked higher, but not because of Summer League.

Jarnell Stokes put up huge numbers, as well as Dylan Ennis and Alex Caruso. I wouldn't put too much stock in SL. Those guys I just mentioned probably will only play in garbage time during preseason. We'll get a better look at T.J. when he's playing with more of the regulars in an NBA setting.

[basketballwacko2]

I get where you're coming from, but it still was just Summer League. Some guys perform, some guys don't.

Collins was impressive on offense, but he did struggle on defense. He's hit his open jumpers, but it's SL. Everybody's getting and hitting open looks. I like Collins and I do believe he has a bright future and he should've been picked higher, but not because of Summer League.

Jarnell Stokes put up huge numbers, as well as Dylan Ennis and Alex Caruso. I wouldn't put too much stock in SL. Those guys I just mentioned probably will only play in garbage time during preseason. We'll get a better look at T.J. when he's playing with more of the regulars in an NBA setting.

Collins was a So. at Wake Forest which has a reputation for producing quality basketball players, as does UCLA. I think the Pacers are counting on Leaf being a quality 3pt shooter at the NBA level he shot 46% from 3 pt range in college but that does not always translate to the longer NBA 3 pointer.

Collins is actually 6 months younger than Leaf and had 2 yrs of college ball at Wake Forest. I had in in the top 12 why he dropped I don't know but I think that guy is gonna have something to prove now.

The Pacers have botched to many draft picks in the last 10 yrs only hitting on 2 #1 picks George and Turner and 1 2nd round pick Lance.

[basketballwacko2]

I think I just figured out why the Pacers didn't take Collins. His agent is Aaron Mintz. This may have been the reason that Collins slipped, 28 teams know that Mintz is a punk and won't deal in good faith.

[Pacers_Freak]

I do think Collins is more of a play now guy but Leaf has more potential. Like the other poster said.... I wouldn't put too much stock into the summer league.

[Pacers_Freak]

I get where you're coming from, but it still was just Summer League. Some guys perform, some guys don't.

Collins was impressive on offense, but he did struggle on defense. He's hit his open jumpers, but it's SL. Everybody's getting and hitting open looks. I like Collins and I do believe he has a bright future and he should've been picked higher, but not because of Summer League.

Jarnell Stokes put up huge numbers, as well as Dylan Ennis and Alex Caruso. I wouldn't put too much stock in SL. Those guys I just mentioned probably will only play in garbage time during preseason. We'll get a better look at T.J. when he's playing with more of the regulars in an NBA setting.

Collins was a So. at Wake Forest which has a reputation for producing quality basketball players, as does UCLA. I think the Pacers are counting on Leaf being a quality 3pt shooter at the NBA level he shot 46% from 3 pt range in college but that does not always translate to the longer NBA 3 pointer.

Collins is actually 6 months younger than Leaf and had 2 yrs of college ball at Wake Forest. I had in in the top 12 why he dropped I don't know but I think that guy is gonna have something to prove now.

The Pacers have botched to many draft picks in the last 10 yrs only hitting on 2 #1 picks George and Turner and 1 2nd round pick Lance.

Hibbert was also a solid pick. Gave us several good years until he fell apart. Could they have drafted better absolutely... but botched is a strong word when we have been consistently picking in the 20s. That becomes a crap shoot.

[Wizop]

I wasn't on Collins but I certainly wouldn't have been angry if we'd chosen him. I've liked what I've seen of Leaf though and will not second guess. Now if you want to find a summer league story that I can get behind, it's that we should have bought a low first or a high second and taken Swanigan. He's also doing great this summer.

[8305]

I wasn't on Collins but I certainly wouldn't have been angry if we'd chosen him. I've liked what I've seen of Leaf though and will not second guess. Now if you want to find a summer league story that I can get behind, it's that we should have bought a low first or a high second and taken Swanigan. He's also doing great this summer.

I'm with you on Swanigan. Rebounder, 3 point shooter, nice feel for the game. I could have seen him and Turner being a lethal combination on offense. Not sure if either would ever be able to step out on the floor and guard anyone but, my expectation is Swanigan will turn out better Collins.

[basketballwacko2]

I wasn't on Collins but I certainly wouldn't have been angry if we'd chosen him. I've liked what I've seen of Leaf though and will not second guess. Now if you want to find a summer league story that I can get behind, it's that we should have bought a low first or a high second and taken Swanigan. He's also doing great this summer.

I'm with you on Swanigan. Rebounder, 3 point shooter, nice feel for the game. I could have seen him and Turner being a lethal combination on offense. Not sure if either would ever be able to step out on the floor and guard anyone but, my expectation is Swanigan will turn out better Collins.

They might be able to get Swanigan from Portland if they would eat some salary and save the Blazers some Luxury Tax.

Say Joe Young, and Seraphin for Swanigan and Ed Davis. Since Seraphin is not guaranteed and I don't see a guarantee date, the Blazers could cut him and that would save them $6.4 million in salary and 3X that in tax. I think they want to trade Leonard but I can't see eating that salary and we don't have the space to absorb it anyhow.

[Wizop]

They might be able to get Swanigan from Portland if they would eat some salary and save the Blazers some Luxury Tax.

I think that shipped has sailed with Thad, TJ, Damos, and Ike. Also, if we're looking for a 15th player, I'd think it would be a 3 not a 4. but I think they had more on their minds than avoiding a guarantee when they waived Niang so you never know.

[basketballwacko2]

They might be able to get Swanigan from Portland if they would eat some salary and save the Blazers some Luxury Tax.

I think that shipped has sailed with Thad, TJ, Damos, and Ike. Also, if we're looking for a 15th player, I'd think it would be a 3 not a 4. but I think they had more on their minds than avoiding a guarantee when they waived Niang so you never know.

If I could make that deal I suggested I'd put Swanigan in the G-League for the whole season and look to trade Thad Young. Davis could be kept as insurance or just bought out. And NOT stretched.

[Moooose]

I think the league has seen enough players who plays like John Collins, but not too many who plays like TJ Leaf.

I liked Collins but rarity makes me want TJ Leaf more.

[The_Hater]

I think the league has seen enough players who plays like John Collins, but not too many who plays like TJ Leaf.

I liked Collins but rarity makes me want TJ Leaf more.

In fact, the natural PF who isn't big enough or good enough defensively to play Center, which is exactly what John Collins is, struggles to fit in today's league. Teams don't want PF's who can't guard the perimeter defensively or stretch the floor, pass, shoot and make plays away from the basket offensively. It effects the entire offense negatively with the lack of spacing if you stick a Kenneth Faried type in at PF.

Collins looked great in college and great in summer league playing his game, I'm just not convinced that style translates to today's league. Leaf's ability to pass and play all over the court seems like it should translate to the NBA much better. Just give it time.

[Wizop]

the natural PF who isn't big enough or good enough defensively to play Center ... struggles to fit in today's league.

that's Lavoy Allen.

[The_Hater]

the natural PF who isn't big enough or good enough defensively to play Center ... struggles to fit in today's league.

that's Lavoy Allen.

Except Allen is one of the worst offensive player in the league regardless of position. Collins has offensive skill.

[Wizop]

Except Allen is one of the worst offensive player in the league regardless of position. Collins has offensive skill.

Lavoy did have a mid-range game. we'll see what Collins has but I think it'll turn out to be mid-range and inside. Leaf has an outside game and that's what we were looking for.

[The_Hater]

Except Allen is one of the worst offensive player in the league regardless of position. Collins has offensive skill.

Lavoy did have a mid-range game. we'll see what Collins has but I think it'll turn out to be mid-range and inside. Leaf has an outside game and that's what we were looking for.

I think Leaf can score anywhere on the floor. Once he extends his range he'll be a stretch 4 who can put the ball on the floor, run the break and pass. His defensive issues will be tough to overcome but a lot of stretch 4's have similar issues including others in his draft class. But he has a far better offensive game then a lot of people realize.

[Miller4ever]

Lavoy did have a mid-range game.

Math disagrees with you.

[8305]

Except Allen is one of the worst offensive player in the league regardless of position. Collins has offensive skill.

Lavoy did have a mid-range game. we'll see what Collins has but I think it'll turn out to be mid-range and inside. Leaf has an outside game and that's what we were looking for.

I think Leaf can score anywhere on the floor. Once he extends his range he'll be a stretch 4 who can put the ball on the floor, run the break and pass. His defensive issues will be tough to overcome but a lot of stretch 4's have similar issues including others in his draft class. But he has a far better offensive game then a lot of people realize.

I think Leaf is a better athlete than many of the stretch fours in the game today. I'd like to think that could translate into an ability to step out on the floor and defend.

[Wizop]

Lavoy did have a mid-range game.

Math disagrees with you.

we don't really have a disagreement here. scroll up to #14 in this thread and you'll find me saying Lavoy didn't have enough offense for today's game.