RealGM Greatest Peaks Project---List, Interest, Metathinking thread

[Pablo Novi]

Here's a question for you all.
Is it better to go back into my earlier post and correct the (3) mistakes (thus not misleading anybody that comes along later and doesn't realize there's inaccuracies in the post); OR leave it the way it is - so that:
a) the subsequent responses pointing out some of the errors make sense; and
b) so it doesn't look like I tried to cover my sorry butt!


LATE EDIT: N.B. To avoid confusion, I've gone ahead and edited my original post to include the three corrections. Thanx to those who pointed them out!

[eminence]

Spoiler:

Do we have league stats available for any of those years before 49 when B-R.com starts posting them? And, if so, how much information do they have? If there aren't good numbers for the competition as well as Mikan so we can see at least how statistically dominant he was (team winning margin, etc.), then we are just going off anecdotal evidence which is pretty weak. (Oh, and from what I can find, you added an extra year; he is listed everywhere I can find as having 7 titles in 8 years, 7/9 if you count his attempt to make a comeback in 1956).

In '46 he could be talking about the World Basketball Tournament, though the Gears finished 3rd I believe, Mikan was MVP of the tournament. Actually, nevermind, that doesn't make sense, the Gears still went on to win the NBL title the next year. Must be an extra Lakers title in there somewhere (I think they only won one NBL title).

And actually BR has some of them: http://www.basketball-reference.com/nbl/seasons/

Another decent resource I found for NBL stuff: http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBL/index.html

Gee, pretty darned sloppy on my part. I looked at the Finals results several times and still managed to screw up three times:
1. It was not Chicago Gears but Chicago American Gears;

2. There was no Mikan - Chicago American Gears title in 46;
and
3. It was 1951 rather than 1952 when he/they lost to the Rochester Royals.

So he was 7 titles in 8 years, (not 8 in 9 years). Still incredibly dominant.

I apologize for the mistakes.

About the stats from those years, B-R does have them. For example, here's the Chicago American Gears 1947 seasons stats:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/nbl/teams/CAG/1947.html

All good my man, lots of lil' tidbits floating around up there, I understand completely.

And the year they lost to the Royals was the year he was playing on a broken leg if memory serves. Quite possibly could have been 8/8 without that.

[Pablo Novi]

Spoiler:

In '46 he could be talking about the World Basketball Tournament, though the Gears finished 3rd I believe, Mikan was MVP of the tournament. Actually, nevermind, that doesn't make sense, the Gears still went on to win the NBL title the next year. Must be an extra Lakers title in there somewhere (I think they only won one NBL title).

And actually BR has some of them: http://www.basketball-reference.com/nbl/seasons/

Another decent resource I found for NBL stuff: http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBL/index.html

Gee, pretty darned sloppy on my part. I looked at the Finals results several times and still managed to screw up three times:
1. It was not Chicago Gears but Chicago American Gears;

2. There was no Mikan - Chicago American Gears title in 46;
and
3. It was 1951 rather than 1952 when he/they lost to the Rochester Royals.

So he was 7 titles in 8 years, (not 8 in 9 years). Still incredibly dominant.

I apologize for the mistakes.

About the stats from those years, B-R does have them. For example, here's the Chicago American Gears 1947 seasons stats:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/nbl/teams/CAG/1947.html

All good my man, lots of lil' tidbits floating around up there, I understand completely.

And the year they lost to the Royals was the year he was playing on a broken leg if memory serves. Quite possibly could have been 8/8 without that.

Thanx.
btw, I've gone back to that original post and edited in the three corrections.

[DidUSaySometing]

CP3 is way too low, he is easily top 20. Dirk is ranked too high, his 11 run wasn't that great, he only averaged 27 in the finals. Wade in 2006 got outplayed by Carter in the playoffs. Curry in 2015? Got outplayed and outscored by LeBron in finals. Nash in 07 got outplayed and outscored by Duncan in the playoffs. AI in 01 outscored Shaq. CP3 and AI deserve more credit, they never played with a superstar in their career.

Top 5:
1. 00 Shaq
2. 67 Wilt
3. 77 Kareem
4. 03 Duncan
5. 94 Hakeem

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

What about micro-peaks? Like 2 playoff series?
Bernard King was amazing for 2 playoff series.
King had much longer periods of offensive skill but his athleticism was hurt by injuries and his defensive motivation wasn't all that good for most of his career in the regular season on bad teams.
Still the small peak of Knicks vs Pistons and Celtics is a very special peak.

[DidUSaySometing]

Hey RealGM'ers, was thinking of starting up a Peaks Project (top 50??) this fall, maybe beginning in early September.

Am posting this thread (penbeast0 is going to sticky it for us) to get an idea if there is adequate interest. I figure we should allow for a voter pool of at least 15-20 people, especially noting how turnout drops off once you get past the top 10-20 places; if there isn't at least that much interest, then it's probably a no go.

Similar to the top 100 project, voters must register here to participate (just state your interest in participating within this thread). Regular/known posters will be allowed in immediately. Though I don't intend to set a minimum post-count requirement, newer (and thus relatively unknown) posters will have to show a willingness (and ability) to contribute meaningful discourse before being officially entered into the voting pool (there's time to prove this willingness and ability before the voting actually starts, since we likely won't get underway for at least a couple weeks).

Here are my thoughts/intentions on other rules and format (open to comments/changes):

a) Top 50 sound in-depth enough to everyone?
b) Reasoning/statistical support, etc required for votes to be counted. A simple list of names will not be counted.
c) As with the top 100 project, I was planning an approximately 48-hour window for voting for each place.
d) Instead of the format we used in the top 100 project (where everybody voted for ONE candidate, and if no consensus was reached we had a 24-hour run-off between the top two vote recipients), I was thinking more like this:
Everyone gives their 1st-ballot choice, 2nd-ballot choice, and 3rd-ballot choice. I'll award 3 pts for a 1st ballot, 2 for a 2nd ballot, and 1 for a 3rd. Highest point-total wins the spot (24-hour run-off will then only be done in the unlikely event of a tie). In this way I'm hoping to cut down the length of time this project will run, as I think that was part of the issue with poor voter turn-out in the late stages of the top 100 project. This format should probably keep each place down to ~48 hours.
e) I noticed on the last project a specified year for each player peak was stated. As there can be disagreement on which year is the peak for certain players (e.g. Lebron--->many think it's '09, many think it's '13 or '12), I propose that player gets credit for all votes he receives in a round, regardless of the year designated. For instance, if in a given round '09 Lebron received 17 pts, and '13 Lebron received 16 pts, and '12 Lebron received 12 pts.....we'll just count that as 45 pts for Lebron. Otherwise it's as though we're penalizing a player for having a longer sustained peak. Anyone disagree?
***I still think it would be worthwhile to designate a year you think is a player's peak, as I'll likely include this info in the list. Just wrt scoring each round, we'll add all vote-receiving years up. Then as we move on, we'll conduct a side thread to debate and vote for the consensus year which represents a player's peak in all instances where there is NOT at least 75% consensus for a specific year.


Please post any thoughts/suggestions, as well as any intent to participate within this thread.

VOTER POOL
trex_8063
Quotatious
70sFan
RSCD_3
Mutnt

SKF_85
Clyde Frazier
eminence
NyCeEvO
Dr. Positivity

SideshowBob
Gregoire
Moonbeam
JordansBulls
PaulieWal

theonlyclutch
The-Power
thizznation
mischievous
LA Bird

yoyoboy
fpliii
MyUniBroDavis
Narigo
PCProductions

Joao Saraiva
BallerHogger
GoldenFrieza21
drza
urnoggin

Dr Spaceman
RebelWithoutACause
E-Balla

RealGM Greatest Player Peaks of All-Time List
1. Michael Jordan ('91---unanimous)
2. Shaquille O'Neal ('00---unanimous)
3. Lebron James ('13---non-unanimous ('09, '12))
4. Wilt Chamberlain ('67---non-unanimous ('64))
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar ('77---non-unanimous ('71, '72))
6. Hakeem Olajuwon ('94---non-unanimous ('93))
7. Tim Duncan ('03---non-unanimous ('02))
8. Kevin Garnett ('04---unanimous)
9. Bill Russell ('65---non-unanimous ('62, '64))
10. Magic Johnson ('87---unanimous)
11. Larry Bird ('86---non-unanimous ('87, '88))
12. David Robinson ('95---non-unanimous ('94, '96))
13. Bill Walton ('77---unanimous)
14. Julius Erving ('76---unanimous)
15. Oscar Robertson ('64---non-unanimous ('63))
16. Dwyane Wade ('09---non-unanimous ('06, '10))
17. Stephen Curry ('15---unanimous)
18. Dirk Nowitzki ('11---non-unanimous ('06, '09))
19. Jerry West ('66---non-unanimous ('68, '69))
20. Kevin Durant ('14---unanimous)
21. Patrick Ewing ('90---unanimous)
22. Tracy McGrady ('03---unanimous)
23. Kobe Bryant ('08---non-unanimous ('06, '09))
24. Charles Barkley ('90---non-unanimous ('93))
25. Moses Malone ('83---unanimous)
26. Chris Paul ('08---non-unanimous ('15))
27. Karl Malone ('97---non-unanimous ('92/'95/'98))
28. Steve Nash ('07---non-unanimous ('05))
29. Anthony Davis ('15---unanimous)
30. Dwight Howard ('11---non-unanimous ('09))
31. Alonzo Mourning ('00---unanimous)
32. Walt Frazier ('72---non-unanimous ('70, '71))
33. James Harden ('15---unanimous)
34. Artis Gilmore ('75---unanimous)
35. Elgin Baylor ('61---unanimous)
36. Bob Pettit ('63---non-unanimous ('61))
37. Bob Lanier ('74---unanimous)
38. Kevin McHale ('87---non-unanimous ('86))
39. Willis Reed ('69---non-unanimous ('70))
40. Bob McAdoo ('75---unanimous)

curry over kobe?

[CodeBreaker]

I think we should make this again. Curry's 2016 should be up there easily top 10 imo.

[euroleague]

I would like to participate. I've read the other thread quite thoroughly, and have my own opinions on the ranking system. I focus far more heavily on single player impact, as often peaks don't happen the same year a player's team/coach are the best.

can modify Curry/Kawhi (played pretty epic defense, and sound offense with a 34 playoff PER) this year. Westbrook (triple double) and Harden are both gonna get ranked far higher as well.

some new stats can provide more insight into past rankings.

[trex_8063]

I would like to participate.

This project is from 2015. It's possible one of the other mods might chair a new peaks project soon (though probably not until the current top 100 project is winding down). I'd count on one being done by 2018, at least.

[euroleague]

I would like to participate.

This project is from 2015. It's possible one of the other mods might chair a new peaks project soon (though probably not until the current top 100 project is winding down). I'd count on one being done by 2018, at least.

Yea, I remember lurking while it was happening. I think I lurked here about 5-6 years ago quite a bit, but wasn't here so much recently.

[iggymcfrack]

I'd definitely like to get on this. I'm pretty new but I'm hoping that by the time it starts I'll have enough of a body of work to get admitted. Posting in the discussion on the Top 100 overall list that's going on now.

[SideshowBob]

Since I've been quoted a bunch, I thought I'd add some context by sharing a ranking I made last fall after going through some offensive and defensive peaks. Some players might have multiple years at the same peak. Jerry West's best year was 1968, but missing 40% of the season dropped his value below his 1966 season.

Another thing I did was separate offensive and defensive portability. Defensive portability is fairly consistent -- players don't run into redundancy a lot -- but offensive portability is more variable and can have a larger impact. It's also important for people to understand that your portability rating (5-point likert scale from -2 to +2) is related to your offensive SIO. This is because portability is a concept to describe how much your value carries through as you scale up onto better teams (are your returns diminishing?).

Steph Curry would definitely replace David Thompson if I updated from this year.

Any updates to this with 2016 (Curry) and 2017 (Curry and James)? I know you're diving into +/- stuff on your blog in the past few months - any revelations/thought process modifications following?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on Lebron's peak offensive years. I recall a brief discussion on his offense after the 2013 Finals - centered around his Shaq-like finishing ability inside (we marveled at near 78% at the rim), the resultant gravity, and the accompanying scoring tools/playmaking skillset, all of which resulted in some impressive performances by him and Miami on the offensive end.

Since then, he's had 2 years with even better finishing (14 and 17, and currently working on a 3rd) - all of which are accompanied with superior jumpshooting (particularly 3P shooting) and greater comfort and skill in playing in the post. This has also coincided with crazy playoff offense (14 Heat, 16/17 Cavs), culminating in breaking the postseason ORTG record.

How far do you think he's come offensively since then (with 2015 and 16 as acknowledged "down" years)?

[ElGee]

Since I've been quoted a bunch, I thought I'd add some context by sharing a ranking I made last fall after going through some offensive and defensive peaks. Some players might have multiple years at the same peak. Jerry West's best year was 1968, but missing 40% of the season dropped his value below his 1966 season.

Another thing I did was separate offensive and defensive portability. Defensive portability is fairly consistent -- players don't run into redundancy a lot -- but offensive portability is more variable and can have a larger impact. It's also important for people to understand that your portability rating (5-point likert scale from -2 to +2) is related to your offensive SIO. This is because portability is a concept to describe how much your value carries through as you scale up onto better teams (are your returns diminishing?).

Steph Curry would definitely replace David Thompson if I updated from this year.

Any updates to this with 2016 (Curry) and 2017 (Curry and James)? I know you're diving into +/- stuff on your blog in the past few months - any revelations/thought process modifications following?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on Lebron's peak offensive years. I recall a brief discussion on his offense after the 2013 Finals - centered around his Shaq-like finishing ability inside (we marveled at near 78% at the rim), the resultant gravity, and the accompanying scoring tools/playmaking skillset, all of which resulted in some impressive performances by him and Miami on the offensive end.

Since then, he's had 2 years with even better finishing (14 and 17, and currently working on a 3rd) - all of which are accompanied with superior jumpshooting (particularly 3P shooting) and greater comfort and skill in playing in the post. This has also coincided with crazy playoff offense (14 Heat, 16/17 Cavs), culminating in breaking the postseason ORTG record.

How far do you think he's come offensively since then (with 2015 and 16 as acknowledged "down" years)?

Yes, big updates! Starting on Tuesday...

I took a fresh look at everyone, and I think you saw a lot of stuff about the '16 season that others didn't. Without spoiling anything, I'll say this about these two guys: If Curry remained healthy in 2016, he would have finished with a top-5 peak for me. As for LeBron, his evolution has been incredible to study, I think he has SIX legit seasons that are in the running for his peak, and most of them for different reasons. On offense, I think 2014 was his peak, but 2016 right behind. His evolution largely has to do with his shot-selection and passing, which has made his game more portable/scalable.

I've also brought my scale in a little, as I no longer feel it's plausible for so many players in history to have 7-point impact. I think many players can have 7, 8 or even 9-point impact in the right situation, but their impact on so many other normal teams would be like 4-6 points, bringing down the average.

PS I'm using twitter more now, so I'm way faster to respond there.

[SideshowBob]

Since I've been quoted a bunch, I thought I'd add some context by sharing a ranking I made last fall after going through some offensive and defensive peaks. Some players might have multiple years at the same peak. Jerry West's best year was 1968, but missing 40% of the season dropped his value below his 1966 season.

Another thing I did was separate offensive and defensive portability. Defensive portability is fairly consistent -- players don't run into redundancy a lot -- but offensive portability is more variable and can have a larger impact. It's also important for people to understand that your portability rating (5-point likert scale from -2 to +2) is related to your offensive SIO. This is because portability is a concept to describe how much your value carries through as you scale up onto better teams (are your returns diminishing?).

Steph Curry would definitely replace David Thompson if I updated from this year.

Any updates to this with 2016 (Curry) and 2017 (Curry and James)? I know you're diving into +/- stuff on your blog in the past few months - any revelations/thought process modifications following?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on Lebron's peak offensive years. I recall a brief discussion on his offense after the 2013 Finals - centered around his Shaq-like finishing ability inside (we marveled at near 78% at the rim), the resultant gravity, and the accompanying scoring tools/playmaking skillset, all of which resulted in some impressive performances by him and Miami on the offensive end.

Since then, he's had 2 years with even better finishing (14 and 17, and currently working on a 3rd) - all of which are accompanied with superior jumpshooting (particularly 3P shooting) and greater comfort and skill in playing in the post. This has also coincided with crazy playoff offense (14 Heat, 16/17 Cavs), culminating in breaking the postseason ORTG record.

How far do you think he's come offensively since then (with 2015 and 16 as acknowledged "down" years)?

Yes, big updates! Starting on Tuesday...

I took a fresh look at everyone, and I think you saw a lot of stuff about the '16 season that others didn't. Without spoiling anything, I'll say this about these two guys: If Curry remained healthy in 2016, he would have finished with a top-5 peak for me. As for LeBron, his evolution has been incredible to study, I think he has SIX legit seasons that are in the running for his peak, and most of them for different reasons. On offense, I think 2014 was his peak, but 2016 right behind. His evolution largely has to do with his shot-selection and passing, which has made his game more portable/scalable.

I've also brought my scale in a little, as I no longer feel it's plausible for so many players in history to have 7-point impact. I think many players can have 7, 8 or even 9-point impact in the right situation, but their impact on so many other normal teams would be like 4-6 points, bringing down the average.

PS I'm using twitter more now, so I'm way faster to respond there.

Cool! Look forward to it.

And yes, I have the same opinion on 16 Curry.

[eminence]

.

.

Do you two feel there is a significant difference between '16 and '17 Curry (maybe '18 as well, but less to work with there)?

[SideshowBob]

.

.

Do you two feel there is a significant difference between '16 and '17 Curry (maybe '18 as well, but less to work with there)?

Wrote a little bit about is in the POTY thread last year, I may dig that up.

Not a significant difference, but there is one. I did not think he looked quite as sharp in creating off the dribble, and I think the league also made some adjustments to counter him (which in turn, lead to the explosions of Westbrook/Harden/James/Thomas - P&R slashing styles).

Discerning how much of that was caused by physical/personal decline vs. Durant vs. shift in opposing defensive strategy is the difficult part. But overall I had him about a point slightly lower on offense from healthy 2016 Steph (GOAT level) and roughly the same for defense.

[Gregoire]

Since I've been quoted a bunch, I thought I'd add some context by sharing a ranking I made last fall after going through some offensive and defensive peaks. Some players might have multiple years at the same peak. Jerry West's best year was 1968, but missing 40% of the season dropped his value below his 1966 season.

Another thing I did was separate offensive and defensive portability. Defensive portability is fairly consistent -- players don't run into redundancy a lot -- but offensive portability is more variable and can have a larger impact. It's also important for people to understand that your portability rating (5-point likert scale from -2 to +2) is related to your offensive SIO. This is because portability is a concept to describe how much your value carries through as you scale up onto better teams (are your returns diminishing?).

Steph Curry would definitely replace David Thompson if I updated from this year.

Any updates to this with 2016 (Curry) and 2017 (Curry and James)? I know you're diving into +/- stuff on your blog in the past few months - any revelations/thought process modifications following?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on Lebron's peak offensive years. I recall a brief discussion on his offense after the 2013 Finals - centered around his Shaq-like finishing ability inside (we marveled at near 78% at the rim), the resultant gravity, and the accompanying scoring tools/playmaking skillset, all of which resulted in some impressive performances by him and Miami on the offensive end.

Since then, he's had 2 years with even better finishing (14 and 17, and currently working on a 3rd) - all of which are accompanied with superior jumpshooting (particularly 3P shooting) and greater comfort and skill in playing in the post. This has also coincided with crazy playoff offense (14 Heat, 16/17 Cavs), culminating in breaking the postseason ORTG record.

How far do you think he's come offensively since then (with 2015 and 16 as acknowledged "down" years)?

Yes, big updates! Starting on Tuesday...

I took a fresh look at everyone, and I think you saw a lot of stuff about the '16 season that others didn't. Without spoiling anything, I'll say this about these two guys: If Curry remained healthy in 2016, he would have finished with a top-5 peak for me. As for LeBron, his evolution has been incredible to study, I think he has SIX legit seasons that are in the running for his peak, and most of them for different reasons. On offense, I think 2014 was his peak, but 2016 right behind. His evolution largely has to do with his shot-selection and passing, which has made his game more portable/scalable.

I've also brought my scale in a little, as I no longer feel it's plausible for so many players in history to have 7-point impact. I think many players can have 7, 8 or even 9-point impact in the right situation, but their impact on so many other normal teams would be like 4-6 points, bringing down the average.

PS I'm using twitter more now, so I'm way faster to respond there.

BTW, ElGee and SSB, guys, how about your current greatest peaks lists? Is your top-5 different now from then this project was going?

[SideshowBob]

BTW, ElGee and SSB, guys, how about your current greatest peaks lists? Is your top-5 different now from then this project was going?

No change for mine, except 2017 is another year in the running for Lebron's year. If Curry had completed 2016 with no hiccups, I would have had him at #4 or 5.

[Gregoire]

BTW, ElGee and SSB, guys, how about your current greatest peaks lists? Is your top-5 different now from then this project was going?

No change for mine, except 2017 is another year in the running for Lebron's year. If Curry had completed 2016 with no hiccups, I would have had him at #4 or 5.

Well, could you name your current top-5 in order?

[SideshowBob]

BTW, ElGee and SSB, guys, how about your current greatest peaks lists? Is your top-5 different now from then this project was going?

No change for mine, except 2017 is another year in the running for Lebron's year. If Curry had completed 2016 with no hiccups, I would have had him at #4 or 5.

Well, could you name your current top-5 in order?

Here's my list from two years ago:

Criteria

My criteria for peak focuses on skillset/ability. What I'm concerned with is evaluating how much I believe player X improves the odds of any random team's title chances (I typically use the SRS/portability scale for this as Elgee has done/provided research on how much players can shift the needle).

Evaluation Period/Health

The in-season time-frame I like to evaluate/weight the most is the late RS and the postseason (though I don't penalize players for missing the playoffs, unless they are unable to play due to health). RS health (missed time) does not concern me too much, but if health has a negative effect on level of play during that crucial time-frame, I do account for that.

Era

Kind of throws me off. I want to stick to worrying about what players did within their era. Trying to consider them transferred across eras seems like a logistical nightmare.

Portability

A good player lifts a team's overall level of play. The better the team plays the better the chance at a title, thus I prefer skillsets that mesh well on already talented/well-built teams, or skills that tend to avoid easy overlap (defense as a whole is by nature is additive, on offense OTOH more particular skills are preferable). I use a 5 point scale, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, with -2 being the least portable and 2 being the most. Ideally, in the future I'd like to split this up for off/def as even now I think there's room for more nuance in the differences, and I think I could be a bit more precise. There are some situations where I may have preference for a less portable player at the same listed SRS level as well - this is usually because of the limitation of using 0.25 increments.

Ballot (Top 30)

An * indicates that I have multiple seasons of this player at the listed SIO level, and have gone with a year of preference.

Code: Select all

Rk.   Player   Season   SIO   Health   Port

1.    Shaq     2000    +8.00  100%     1
2.    Jordan   1991*   +8.00  100%    -1
3.    James    2013*   +8.00  95%      1
4.    Bird     1986    +7.25  100%     2
5.    Hakeem   1993*   +7.25  100%     2
6.    Wilt     1967    +7.25  100%     1
7.    Russell  1964*   +7.00  100%     2
8.    Duncan   2002    +7.00  100%     2
9.    Garnett  2004*   +7.00  100%     2
10.   Walton   1977    +7.25  80%      2



Code: Select all

11.   Robinson 1994    +6.75  100%     2
12.   Magic    1987    +6.75  100%    -1
13.   Jabbar   1977    +6.50  100%     1
14.   Erving   1976    +6.75  100%     0
15.   Curry    2015    +6.25  100%     2
16.   Wade     2009    +6.25  95%      0
17.   West     1968    +6.75  60%      1
21.   Dirk     2006*   +5.75  100%     1
19.   Barkley  1990    +5.75  100%     0
20.   Oscar    1964    +5.75  95%      1



Code: Select all

21.   Kobe     2008*   +5.75  100%    -1
22.   Paul     2008    +5.75  100%     0
23.   Durant   2014    +5.50  100%     1
24.   Ewing    1990    +5.50  100%     1
25.   Malone   1998*   +5.50  100%     0
26.   Nash     2007    +5.50  95%     -1
27.   McGrady  2003    +5.50  90%     -1
28.   Moses    1982    +5.25  100%     1
29.   GOAT     2015    +5.50  80%     -1
30.   Mourning 2000    +5.00  95%      2


*Pretty undecided on Dirk, I'm higher on his offense in later years but I don't know that that makes up for the defense earlier.

**Ballot not set in stone by any means. There are a lot of places where I'm iffy, particularly the 5.5-5.75 area, that group is a mess, (Durant could be the cream of the crop here, but I've cooled on him with some separation).

I'll also eventually try to expand out to 50 if I have the time.

2017 Lebron I'm not 100% on, but I may have him #1 with a 6.5 O / 1.5-2.0 D split.

Other than that, no major changes.