2017 Nets Offseason Thread III

[TheBrooklynKidd]

you doubting he improves even you end up being right is not a reason to ignore trying to develop a 26 year old player signed to a long term deal. It is the smartest move for the franchise to try and develop and improve him whether its to play here or to make him easier to move later.

You're just saying obvious things. My only argument was that he will be last in the rotation barring some dramatic improvement, meaning he won't suit up for the vast majority of games. Which is a fact. I never said don't try to make him better I said I doubt he gets better.

I dont agree it is a fact. I think he will play 40-50 games. if this was a normal situation where we were gunning to win as much as possible or make the playoffs id agree with you. but that isnt the case here.

they will shufle guys in and out of the rotation like we did last year. i think they will move him between forward and center, work on all aspects of his game in real game minutes. i know he is viewed as a bumb, but it makes sense to invest minutes into him

Idk about you but I just don't see 3 players on this years roster that I'd rather have in a suit over Nicholson. Barring injury of course. And I think this team will be trying to win as much as possible and so does Jeremy Lin it's nothing like last year. Only similarity is that we don't have our pick.

[TheBrooklynKidd]

You talk about the level of our roster but fail to acknowledge that Nicholson is last in the rotation which says a lot about his (lack of) talent.

It goes without saying that Nicholson is last in the rotation, which is why I brought him up in the first place. But that doesn't change that we need everybody on this roster to contribute in order to at least get better than the 20 wins this year.

Nicholson was only on the team for a few months. How can you evaluate a player on such a small sample size? Especially when in Orlando he showed that he can be decent contributor off the bench. Like I said, maybe given an offseason of work with Kenny can help him be a good part of our team. We shouldn't write anybody off just because of how low the talent level on the roster is.

He was garbage all season not just when he was on our team. And I'll say the same thing to you that I did to Prok.

Only 12 people can suit up to play, obviously other than when there are injuries, do you really see 3 players on this roster that you would rather have in a suit so that Nicholson can play?

[Prokorov]

We can't offer him a big enough contract to even make Dallas think twice about matching. All we would be doing is wasting everyone's time.

i think 4/86 is certainly enough to make dallas think about it.

if we renounce foye and waive goodwins non-gauranteed deal that gives us 19.1M in cap room. with annual raises for a player with less then 6 years service time that maps out to:

$19,100,000
$20,628,000
$22,278,240
$24,060,500

total Value: $86,066,739
Average Annual Value: $21,516,684

Lol oh yea I'm sure Mark Cuban is gonna be like "Nerlens Noel?!?! The versatile defender and former lottery pick?!?! For 20 million less than the max he should be getting?!? Absolutely not! That 2 million dollar difference per year that the Nets gave him by renouncing Foye is just too much!! We're going to let them sign him after we gave up assets to acquire him."

Mark Cuban would never let another team steal one of his player especially one as talented as Noel. There were reports that said they would match all the way up to the max.

Noels Max is 25 per year
we can offer 21.5 per year

the Mavs are saying they dont want to max noel. what they are willing to pay is anyone guess, but it is within the realm of possibility that if they dont think he is worth 25 they also dont think he is worth 21.5. maybe they want him for 4/80?

either way, our near max offer is certainly worth making.

what is the down side to making the offer? worst they can do is match, like has happened 4 times already

[TheBrooklynKidd]

i think 4/86 is certainly enough to make dallas think about it.

if we renounce foye and waive goodwins non-gauranteed deal that gives us 19.1M in cap room. with annual raises for a player with less then 6 years service time that maps out to:

$19,100,000
$20,628,000
$22,278,240
$24,060,500

total Value: $86,066,739
Average Annual Value: $21,516,684

Lol oh yea I'm sure Mark Cuban is gonna be like "Nerlens Noel?!?! The versatile defender and former lottery pick?!?! For 20 million less than the max he should be getting?!? Absolutely not! That 2 million dollar difference per year that the Nets gave him by renouncing Foye is just too much!! We're going to let them sign him after we gave up assets to acquire him."

Mark Cuban would never let another team steal one of his player especially one as talented as Noel. There were reports that said they would match all the way up to the max.

Noels Max is 25 per year
we can offer 21.5 per year

the Mavs are saying they dont want to max noel. what they are willing to pay is anyone guess, but it is within the realm of possibility that if they dont think he is worth 25 they also dont think he is worth 21.5. maybe they want him for 4/80?

either way, our near max offer is certainly worth making.

what is the down side to making the offer? worst they can do is match, like has happened 4 times already

If they want him for 4/80 I highly doubt that the notoriously competitive Mark Cuban would just lose such a young and talented player for nothing because of an extra 6 mill spread throughout 4 years especially since they have such little committed salary going forward.

And the down side to making the offer is that we would renounce Goodwin other than that there isn't one other than possibly missing out on any other free agent we want to sign while the cap is tied up which I'll admit is unlikely.

[Prokorov]

You're just saying obvious things. My only argument was that he will be last in the rotation barring some dramatic improvement, meaning he won't suit up for the vast majority of games. Which is a fact. I never said don't try to make him better I said I doubt he gets better.

I dont agree it is a fact. I think he will play 40-50 games. if this was a normal situation where we were gunning to win as much as possible or make the playoffs id agree with you. but that isnt the case here.

they will shufle guys in and out of the rotation like we did last year. i think they will move him between forward and center, work on all aspects of his game in real game minutes. i know he is viewed as a bumb, but it makes sense to invest minutes into him

Idk about you but I just don't see 3 players on this years roster that I'd rather have in a suit over Nicholson. Barring injury of course. And I think this team will be trying to win as much as possible and so does Jeremy Lin it's nothing like last year. Only similarity is that we don't have our pick.

i dont want to see anyone in a suit. i want everyone to get playing time, just like last year.

i dont want to be a closed minded team who writes anyone off. we cant afford that with our lack of talent and assets.

Luckily Marks and Kenny are all about doing all they can to make everyone better, not just our first round talent. and Kenny is a maestro and shuffling guys in and out of the rotation while keeping them invested and bought in.

I'm glad Lin thinks we can make the playoffs... we need comptitiveness from our leader. but what he says really doesnt matter. Marks saying "we arent measuring ourselves by wins, its player development" and kenny saying " think right now, we’re in a growth mindset. So I think we can take a little risk in terms of letting the ball fly a little and giving them freedom to play.” among other quotes about it being a long slow process.

Either way, actions speak louder then words, and its pretty clear the focus of the franchise isnt on winning games, and wins will definitely take a back seat to giving developmental reps to players. really nothing changed from last year other then we have more first round young talent to develop this year

[Prokorov]

Only 12 people can suit up to play, obviously other than when there are injuries, do you really see 3 players on this roster that you would rather have in a suit so that Nicholson can play?

this is false. you can dress 13 guys under the current CBA. and then beyond that you can change who dresses game to game. like last year, kenny shuffles guys in and out of the rotation to ensure everyone sees court time

[Prokorov]

Lol oh yea I'm sure Mark Cuban is gonna be like "Nerlens Noel?!?! The versatile defender and former lottery pick?!?! For 20 million less than the max he should be getting?!? Absolutely not! That 2 million dollar difference per year that the Nets gave him by renouncing Foye is just too much!! We're going to let them sign him after we gave up assets to acquire him."

Mark Cuban would never let another team steal one of his player especially one as talented as Noel. There were reports that said they would match all the way up to the max.

Noels Max is 25 per year
we can offer 21.5 per year

the Mavs are saying they dont want to max noel. what they are willing to pay is anyone guess, but it is within the realm of possibility that if they dont think he is worth 25 they also dont think he is worth 21.5. maybe they want him for 4/80?

either way, our near max offer is certainly worth making.

what is the down side to making the offer? worst they can do is match, like has happened 4 times already

If they want him for 4/80 I highly doubt that the notoriously competitive Mark Cuban would just lose such a young and talented player for nothing because of an extra 6 mill spread throughout 4 years especially since they have such little committed salary going forward.

And the down side to making the offer is that we would renounce Goodwin other than that there isn't one other than possibly missing out on any other free agent we want to sign while the cap is tied up which I'll admit is unlikely.

We woudlnt need to renounce goodwin until the offersheet is signed. and if dallas matches, we could just resign goodwin. he makes the minimum.

having the cap space tied up is irrelevant. weve had the space for weeks and havent used it. those guys would still be there in a few days.

none of those are reasons not to make the offer

[TheBrooklynKidd]

Noels Max is 25 per year
we can offer 21.5 per year

the Mavs are saying they dont want to max noel. what they are willing to pay is anyone guess, but it is within the realm of possibility that if they dont think he is worth 25 they also dont think he is worth 21.5. maybe they want him for 4/80?

either way, our near max offer is certainly worth making.

what is the down side to making the offer? worst they can do is match, like has happened 4 times already

If they want him for 4/80 I highly doubt that the notoriously competitive Mark Cuban would just lose such a young and talented player for nothing because of an extra 6 mill spread throughout 4 years especially since they have such little committed salary going forward.

And the down side to making the offer is that we would renounce Goodwin other than that there isn't one other than possibly missing out on any other free agent we want to sign while the cap is tied up which I'll admit is unlikely.

We woudlnt need to renounce goodwin until the offersheet is signed. and if dallas matches, we could just resign goodwin. he makes the minimum.

having the cap space tied up is irrelevant. weve had the space for weeks and havent used it. those guys would still be there in a few days.

none of those are reasons not to make the offer

Cool doesn't change the fact that it's a waste of time and they will match any offer we can make.

[TheBrooklynKidd]

Only 12 people can suit up to play, obviously other than when there are injuries, do you really see 3 players on this roster that you would rather have in a suit so that Nicholson can play?

this is false. you can dress 13 guys under the current CBA. and then beyond that you can change who dresses game to game. like last year, kenny shuffles guys in and out of the rotation to ensure everyone sees court time

My bad 13. Nicholson will be the first one in a suit, the last off the bench and have the most DNP-CD Kenny shuffling guy's around doesn't change that.

[tonman]

I dont agree it is a fact. I think he will play 40-50 games. if this was a normal situation where we were gunning to win as much as possible or make the playoffs id agree with you. but that isnt the case here.

they will shufle guys in and out of the rotation like we did last year. i think they will move him between forward and center, work on all aspects of his game in real game minutes. i know he is viewed as a bumb, but it makes sense to invest minutes into him

Idk about you but I just don't see 3 players on this years roster that I'd rather have in a suit over Nicholson. Barring injury of course. And I think this team will be trying to win as much as possible and so does Jeremy Lin it's nothing like last year. Only similarity is that we don't have our pick.

i dont want to see anyone in a suit. i want everyone to get playing time, just like last year.

i dont want to be a closed minded team who writes anyone off. we cant afford that with our lack of talent and assets.

Luckily Marks and Kenny are all about doing all they can to make everyone better, not just our first round talent. and Kenny is a maestro and shuffling guys in and out of the rotation while keeping them invested and bought in.

I'm glad Lin thinks we can make the playoffs... we need comptitiveness from our leader. but what he says really doesnt matter. Marks saying "we arent measuring ourselves by wins, its player development" and kenny saying " think right now, we’re in a growth mindset. So I think we can take a little risk in terms of letting the ball fly a little and giving them freedom to play.” among other quotes about it being a long slow process.

Either way, actions speak louder then words, and its pretty clear the focus of the franchise isnt on winning games, and wins will definitely take a back seat to giving developmental reps to players. really nothing changed from last year other then we have more first round young talent to develop this year

There's a difference between wins and playing to win. You may not hold much value to wins if you are rebuilding but if you are not playing to win, then your culture is not set to win.

It's up to the coaches to play to win but still develop players.

[Prokorov]

If they want him for 4/80 I highly doubt that the notoriously competitive Mark Cuban would just lose such a young and talented player for nothing because of an extra 6 mill spread throughout 4 years especially since they have such little committed salary going forward.

And the down side to making the offer is that we would renounce Goodwin other than that there isn't one other than possibly missing out on any other free agent we want to sign while the cap is tied up which I'll admit is unlikely.

We woudlnt need to renounce goodwin until the offersheet is signed. and if dallas matches, we could just resign goodwin. he makes the minimum.

having the cap space tied up is irrelevant. weve had the space for weeks and havent used it. those guys would still be there in a few days.

none of those are reasons not to make the offer

Cool doesn't change the fact that it's a waste of time and they will match any offer we can make.

It isn't a waste of time. as you dont know that they will match any offer. if that was true, he would probably have a max contract right now. not to mention the minor benefits of getting on the players/agents good side for getting them their money, and taking dallas out of the pictures for cap space next summer.

the only waste is being so obtuse and closed minded, and throwing away small opportunities that come at little or no cost.

making assumptions is what bad franchises do... assume older/poor players cant improve and thus not investing time or resources on them. assuming teams will match and not making offers because of it.

[Prokorov]

Only 12 people can suit up to play, obviously other than when there are injuries, do you really see 3 players on this roster that you would rather have in a suit so that Nicholson can play?

this is false. you can dress 13 guys under the current CBA. and then beyond that you can change who dresses game to game. like last year, kenny shuffles guys in and out of the rotation to ensure everyone sees court time

My bad 13. Nicholson will be the first one in a suit, the last off the bench and have the most DNP-CD Kenny shuffling guy's around doesn't change that.

of course shuffling guys changes that. thats exactly why he does the shuffling and its how nicholson and other low level guys saw playing time last year. kenny wante him to get 8-14 minutes when he was able to play him, so instead of just giving him 4 garbagetime minutes he dressed him in place of others to play him 8-14 minutes, then had him inactive to get other guys those minutes. and the value there is your guys you need to develop see real time, not just meaningless garbage time minutes.

This is a big who shot 34% from three for his career prior to last year. still relatively young.

im really not sure why you would want to write him off completely after just 10 games. that is really unwise for a 26 year old guy who we are locked into for 3 years

[Prokorov]

Idk about you but I just don't see 3 players on this years roster that I'd rather have in a suit over Nicholson. Barring injury of course. And I think this team will be trying to win as much as possible and so does Jeremy Lin it's nothing like last year. Only similarity is that we don't have our pick.

i dont want to see anyone in a suit. i want everyone to get playing time, just like last year.

i dont want to be a closed minded team who writes anyone off. we cant afford that with our lack of talent and assets.

Luckily Marks and Kenny are all about doing all they can to make everyone better, not just our first round talent. and Kenny is a maestro and shuffling guys in and out of the rotation while keeping them invested and bought in.

I'm glad Lin thinks we can make the playoffs... we need comptitiveness from our leader. but what he says really doesnt matter. Marks saying "we arent measuring ourselves by wins, its player development" and kenny saying " think right now, we’re in a growth mindset. So I think we can take a little risk in terms of letting the ball fly a little and giving them freedom to play.” among other quotes about it being a long slow process.

Either way, actions speak louder then words, and its pretty clear the focus of the franchise isnt on winning games, and wins will definitely take a back seat to giving developmental reps to players. really nothing changed from last year other then we have more first round young talent to develop this year

There's a difference between wins and playing to win. You may not hold much value to wins if you are rebuilding but if you are not playing to win, then your culture is not set to win.

It's up to the coaches to play to win but still develop players.

exactly... the focus is not on winning, but the players will still complete hard for 48 minutes. we saw this last year.... hard working winning culture, but a focus on development over wins. on a team of young guys, most of whom are low level prospects, thats a GREAT thing when you know your franchise is doing all they can to help you improve. even sacraficing wins

[TheBrooklynKidd]

We woudlnt need to renounce goodwin until the offersheet is signed. and if dallas matches, we could just resign goodwin. he makes the minimum.

having the cap space tied up is irrelevant. weve had the space for weeks and havent used it. those guys would still be there in a few days.

none of those are reasons not to make the offer

Cool doesn't change the fact that it's a waste of time and they will match any offer we can make.

It isn't a waste of time. as you dont know that they will match any offer. if that was true, he would probably have a max contract right now. not to mention the minor benefits of getting on the players/agents good side for getting them their money, and taking dallas out of the pictures for cap space next summer.

the only waste is being so obtuse and closed minded, and throwing away small opportunities that come at little or no cost.

making assumptions is what bad franchises do... assume older/poor players cant improve and thus not investing time or resources on them. assuming teams will match and not making offers because of it.

I disagree. Understanding that minutes are better used to develop players that actually have real potential is what good franchises do. Nicholson has legitimate flaws that will prevent him from becoming a good NBA player while there are tons of other players on this roster that deserve time over him and will already struggle to get minutes.

Sure they can sign take a chance on signing Noel but the chance we actually get for the contract we offer is 0% so don't get your hopes up.

But I'm done congrats you win the argument we just had about a player that will never be on the team and a player that wont be on a NBA team after his contract runs out.

[Prokorov]

I disagree. Understanding that minutes are better used to develop players that actually have real potential is what good franchises do. Nicholson has legitimate flaws that will prevent him from becoming a good NBA player while there are tons of other players on this roster that deserve time over him and will already struggle to get minutes.

All these guys have potential including nicholson. they all also have flaws... some major flaws like shooting or ball handling or athleticism. there are plenty of minutes go around. no one is advocating for him to play tons of minutes/games. but he should absolutely see 40-50 games worth of 8-12 minute action. similar to what he saw in a small sample here the end of last season.

Again, it would be extremely foolish to not invest in a guy who is here 3 years who is still relatively young and showed at worst he could make a niche as a stretch big

Sure they can sign take a chance on signing Noel but the chance we actually get for the contract we offer is 0% so don't get your hopes up.

still worth offer. make them prove it.

But I'm done congrats you win the argument we just had about a player that will never be on the team and a player that wont be on a NBA team after his contract runs out.

Dude grow up... this isnt about "winning an argument" its about discussing the nets. if you dont want to talk about nicholson and noel then dont talk about them. but dont come in here, poo poo on the original posters views on noel, then get all sour when other people show opinions that are different then yours or bring on other perspectives,

[sprost]

delete

[sprost]

I disagree. Understanding that minutes are better used to develop players that actually have real potential is what good franchises do. Nicholson has legitimate flaws that will prevent him from becoming a good NBA player while there are tons of other players on this roster that deserve time over him and will already struggle to get minutes.

All these guys have potential including nicholson. they all also have flaws... some major flaws like shooting or ball handling or athleticism. there are plenty of minutes go around. no one is advocating for him to play tons of minutes/games. but he should absolutely see 40-50 games worth of 8-12 minute action. similar to what he saw in a small sample here the end of last season.

Again, it would be extremely foolish to not invest in a guy who is here 3 years who is still relatively young and showed at worst he could make a niche as a stretch big

Sure they can sign take a chance on signing Noel but the chance we actually get for the contract we offer is 0% so don't get your hopes up.

still worth offer. make them prove it.

Agreed:
Don't understand the logic of NOT going for Noels (the best thing conceivably available for what this team needs) with a very small chance (5%?) of getting Noels at negligible if any risk/costs to us.
Good will with other owners by making them pay more?
We long ago gave that up.

[treiz]

He was garbage all season not just when he was on our team. And I'll say the same thing to you that I did to Prok.

Only 12 people can suit up to play, obviously other than when there are injuries, do you really see 3 players on this roster that you would rather have in a suit so that Nicholson can play?

But he's shown that he has some semblance of competency, so just because of that we shouldn't write him off right now. Especially for a roster like ours where not too long ago we were scouring the D-league for talent.

To answer your question, I actually don't know. But I'm not willing to write him off and say he's a lost cause so early in his Nets career, he only arrived in February, and he probably needed an adjustment period to Kenny's system. If he doesn't produce this year, then fair enough. But I can imagine Kenny leaving no stone left unturned and exploring all possible avenues available to him.

I can also imagine him doing what he did towards the end of last season, he would bring guys in and out of the rotation on a weekly basis and try to experiment with different rotations. That also helps with the culture him and Marks are trying to build, by making sure every one of the 15 guys are engaged throughout the year and that they know they can step in and contribute when called upon. He's going to give every guy on this roster an opportunity, as long as they practice and play hard, that's all I'm saying.

[Paradise]

I could see us standing pat with the idea of getting stretch four offense from Acy and Nicholson. A huge bet on development.

I'm still a big fan of the Harlem Heat duo of Acy/Booker. I think there's good upside to finish certain games with Lin/LeVert/Carroll/Acy/Booker.

I can't help but see an old ass man when Nicholson plays. He's got a chance to improve with a full camp under his belt but the guy screams bust and scrub.


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[ChokeFasncists]

With the Noel debacle we should somewhat make a decent offer similar to KCP.

A 4/60 or 4/70 at best should do it. If the Mavs matches then we move on. There's no risk in doing this since there's no close to deserving signing with the remaining cap space we have. I'd rather pull the trigger on a 23 yo defensive anchor than sign role players to 10M contracts.

Cuban is playing poker with Noel and wants to get him on the cheap. Let them sweat a little with an offer sheet...

Agreed. I'd rather give him a smaller offer that makes everyone happy than trying to make a bigger offer to try to scare the Mavs if we don't really want him.