Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
I just hope he can have somewhat of a free reign to show what he can do
Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
anothermagicfan wrote:Elf if you read this go kick some ass and shut these idiots up
Yeah, do that IF you can! I will even shutdown my account and NOT COME BACK HERE EVER IF you bring this Magic 2018-19 team to even 9th seed.
Shame on you IF you come back the same player as last year!
Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
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anothermagicfan wrote:Elf if you read this go kick some ass and shut these idiots up
At least those idiots can represent their opinion in an eloquent way and not sound like a some keyboard tough guy. I really pray you aren't actually an adult.
Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
NSB_Magic wrote:The fact that he doesn't fit the prototype of a modern day point guard is why casual fans seem to dismiss him. All the casual fans want to see is Curry, Russell, Lillard and co launching 10 3's a game. That's what they've been conditioned to enjoy and root for.
While I understand the evolution of today's NBA, I refuse to believe a guy who lacks one skill -3 point shooting; cant overcome the stereotypes of the "modern point guard". I love the way he plays the game and I agree with Mofo that many GM's and coaches would love to have EP on their squad.
Reading this list: what Payton has over those three is height and length. Payton has demonstrated a physical ability to be a lock-down defender. He simply has not bought into maximising his defense as a way to become elite. What he could become is a guy that routinely holds Curry/Russell/Lillard to 4 for 15 shooting nights. That helps Orlando more than Payton developing a 3-ball.
Optimus_Steel wrote:The Magic have one of the worst offenses in the league. Elfrid is just not having the effect some fans think he is. If he was a good point guard the Magic would not be as bad in numerous offensive and advanced statistics. I don't see his shooting and scoring shortcomings being able to offset the good he does.
I accept your views but I do not see this as the core problem. For me that Orlando is awful at SF and has no wing-depth at all is the reason the Magic suck on offense. Add a player like Porter Jr., and Payton (and Gordon) would likely florish. Right now we are kind of hoping that Simmons is that guy. But there is no reason to think so. So we fans get to wait another 3 years for Isaac to develop his Durant-styled game.
..
Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
fendilim wrote:Elfrid is nice but you have to build your team a certain way around him. But is he worth building around?
I hear this said routinely - what certain way does it need to be built?
As I see it, if we were indeed making an attempt to "build around Elf", we'd need to surround him with offense...which is what we would need if we built around literally anyone else on the roster at this point.
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
Audi wrote:fendilim wrote:Elfrid is nice but you have to build your team a certain way around him. But is he worth building around?
I hear this said routinely - what certain way does it need to be built?
As I see it, if we were indeed making an attempt to "build around Elf", we'd need to surround him with offense...which is what we would need if we built around literally anyone else on the roster at this point.
You'll need a lineup of shooters for him to strive. That means no AG in the lineup. And if you're going to choose between him or AG, its gotta be ag.
Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
Audi wrote:fendilim wrote:Elfrid is nice but you have to build your team a certain way around him. But is he worth building around?
I hear this said routinely - what certain way does it need to be built?
As I see it, if we were indeed making an attempt to "build around Elf", we'd need to surround him with offense...which is what we would need if we built around literally anyone else on the roster at this point.
I swear, If it were anyone else at pg people would put the blame for our horrible offense squarely on that players shoulders. You dont build around Elfrid, you build around elite talent which we obviously dont have.
fendilim wrote:Audi wrote:fendilim wrote:Elfrid is nice but you have to build your team a certain way around him. But is he worth building around?
I hear this said routinely - what certain way does it need to be built?
As I see it, if we were indeed making an attempt to "build around Elf", we'd need to surround him with offense...which is what we would need if we built around literally anyone else on the roster at this point.
You'll need a lineup of shooters for him to strive. That means no AG in the lineup. And if you're going to choose between him or AG, its gotta be ag.
Yup and its not even close.
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
fendilim wrote:Audi wrote:fendilim wrote:Elfrid is nice but you have to build your team a certain way around him. But is he worth building around?
I hear this said routinely - what certain way does it need to be built?
As I see it, if we were indeed making an attempt to "build around Elf", we'd need to surround him with offense...which is what we would need if we built around literally anyone else on the roster at this point.
You'll need a lineup of shooters for him to strive. That means no AG in the lineup. And if you're going to choose between him or AG, its gotta be ag.
Golden Magic starting lineup:
Elfrid - poor shooter
Steph - excellent shooter
Klay - excellent shooter
Kevin - excellent shooter
Green - excellent shooter
Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
drsd wrote:NSB_Magic wrote:The fact that he doesn't fit the prototype of a modern day point guard is why casual fans seem to dismiss him. All the casual fans want to see is Curry, Russell, Lillard and co launching 10 3's a game. That's what they've been conditioned to enjoy and root for.
While I understand the evolution of today's NBA, I refuse to believe a guy who lacks one skill -3 point shooting; cant overcome the stereotypes of the "modern point guard". I love the way he plays the game and I agree with Mofo that many GM's and coaches would love to have EP on their squad.
Reading this list: what Payton has over those three is height and length. Payton has demonstrated a physical ability to be a lock-down defender. He simply has not bought into maximising his defense as a way to become elite. What he could become is a guy that routinely holds Curry/Russell/Lillard to 4 for 15 shooting nights. That helps Orlando more than Payton developing a 3-ball.Optimus_Steel wrote:The Magic have one of the worst offenses in the league. Elfrid is just not having the effect some fans think he is. If he was a good point guard the Magic would not be as bad in numerous offensive and advanced statistics. I don't see his shooting and scoring shortcomings being able to offset the good he does.
I accept your views but I do not see this as the core problem. For me that Orlando is awful at SF and has no wing-depth at all is the reason the Magic suck on offense. Add a player like Porter Jr., and Payton (and Gordon) would likely florish. Right now we are kind of hoping that Simmons is that guy. But there is no reason to think so. So we fans get to wait another 3 years for Isaac to develop his Durant-styled game.
..
Our offense did get better after the all star break. At that point our starters were actually above average.
Our biggest problem last year..... was our bench play.... ranking dead last in the league. And that is one of the things that i am hoping has been addressed this year. whether it's adding our new players to the bench.... moving starters (i.e. ross) to the bench.... isaac ..... and hopefully a fresher and more prepared Mario.
Post All Star Game Starter results http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/17/6/diffeff/18-1
Post All Star Game Bench results http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/17/7/diffeff/18-1
Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
I used to enjoy watching Elfrid Payton and Tony Wroten play against each other but from what I can gather, Payton hasnt really progressed much as player from his rookie year. Not that he is a bad player or anything, you just usually expect guys to take certain leaps in production if they are actually capable of it.
And I guess you could blame the makeup of the team around him (lack of shooting, overall poor talent, changing head coaches), but shouldnt Elfrid be held accountable for some of those truths in and of himself?
If it really will come down to EP or AG like you guys are saying, im not sure why the Magic are holding onto Payton this long. He should be traded
And I guess you could blame the makeup of the team around him (lack of shooting, overall poor talent, changing head coaches), but shouldnt Elfrid be held accountable for some of those truths in and of himself?
If it really will come down to EP or AG like you guys are saying, im not sure why the Magic are holding onto Payton this long. He should be traded
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
Being a young PG in this league is not easy. Almost every team has an excellent PG and learning how to run an offense and adapt to the NBA has got to be extremely difficult, especially when you're going up against guys like Curry, Harden, Paul, Irving, Wall, etc. almost every single game. Yes, some guys like Irving or Lillard or Wall tear up the league as soon as they step on to an NBA court, but other elite PGs have taken time to develop before they broke out. Just off the top of my head, guys like Walker, Teague, Holiday, Lowry, Dragic, and Conley are PGs that looked mediocre or worse in their first few years in the league but eventually ended up being All-Stars or at least close to being considered All-Stars.
Furthermore, since Payton was drafted in '14, no PG has looked as good as him in his class or in the following draft classes. Perhaps this is a small sample size, but there have actually been a decent number of PGs that have looked worse than Payton since he was drafted, and in many cases they've looked considerably worse (Exum, Smart, Napier, J. Grant, Russell, Mudiay, Payne, Rozier, Dunn are all guys who have had opportunities but haven't looked as good as Payton IMO) The one exception might be Malcolm Brogdon, but that's understandable as Brogdon is a full year older than Payton despite coming into the league later.
Of course Payton has his flaws and this post isn't meant to excuse them or even to suggest that Payton is on the verge of some big breakout. I just wanted to point out that we should be patient with him as it's not unusual at all for PGs to struggle for a few years before getting acclimated to the NBA.
Furthermore, since Payton was drafted in '14, no PG has looked as good as him in his class or in the following draft classes. Perhaps this is a small sample size, but there have actually been a decent number of PGs that have looked worse than Payton since he was drafted, and in many cases they've looked considerably worse (Exum, Smart, Napier, J. Grant, Russell, Mudiay, Payne, Rozier, Dunn are all guys who have had opportunities but haven't looked as good as Payton IMO) The one exception might be Malcolm Brogdon, but that's understandable as Brogdon is a full year older than Payton despite coming into the league later.
Of course Payton has his flaws and this post isn't meant to excuse them or even to suggest that Payton is on the verge of some big breakout. I just wanted to point out that we should be patient with him as it's not unusual at all for PGs to struggle for a few years before getting acclimated to the NBA.
Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
yoyojw17 wrote:drsd wrote:NSB_Magic wrote:The fact that he doesn't fit the prototype of a modern day point guard is why casual fans seem to dismiss him. All the casual fans want to see is Curry, Russell, Lillard and co launching 10 3's a game. That's what they've been conditioned to enjoy and root for.
While I understand the evolution of today's NBA, I refuse to believe a guy who lacks one skill -3 point shooting; cant overcome the stereotypes of the "modern point guard". I love the way he plays the game and I agree with Mofo that many GM's and coaches would love to have EP on their squad.
Reading this list: what Payton has over those three is height and length. Payton has demonstrated a physical ability to be a lock-down defender. He simply has not bought into maximising his defense as a way to become elite. What he could become is a guy that routinely holds Curry/Russell/Lillard to 4 for 15 shooting nights. That helps Orlando more than Payton developing a 3-ball.Optimus_Steel wrote:The Magic have one of the worst offenses in the league. Elfrid is just not having the effect some fans think he is. If he was a good point guard the Magic would not be as bad in numerous offensive and advanced statistics. I don't see his shooting and scoring shortcomings being able to offset the good he does.
I accept your views but I do not see this as the core problem. For me that Orlando is awful at SF and has no wing-depth at all is the reason the Magic suck on offense. Add a player like Porter Jr., and Payton (and Gordon) would likely florish. Right now we are kind of hoping that Simmons is that guy. But there is no reason to think so. So we fans get to wait another 3 years for Isaac to develop his Durant-styled game.
..
Our offense did get better after the all star break. At that point our starters were actually above average.
Our biggest problem last year..... was our bench play.... ranking dead last in the league. And that is one of the things that i am hoping has been addressed this year. whether it's adding our new players to the bench.... moving starters (i.e. ross) to the bench.... isaac ..... and hopefully a fresher and more prepared Mario.
Post All Star Game Starter results http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/17/6/diffeff/18-1
Post All Star Game Bench results http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/17/7/diffeff/18-1
Those stats would be more accurate if they didn't include the playoffs.
Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
shawn_hemp wrote:I used to enjoy watching Elfrid Payton and Tony Wroten play against each other but from what I can gather, Payton hasnt really progressed much as player from his rookie year. Not that he is a bad player or anything, you just usually expect guys to take certain leaps in production if they are actually capable of it.
And I guess you could blame the makeup of the team around him (lack of shooting, overall poor talent, changing head coaches), but shouldnt Elfrid be held accountable for some of those truths in and of himself?
If it really will come down to EP or AG like you guys are saying, im not sure why the Magic are holding onto Payton this long. He should be traded
Except that Payton has improved demonstrably.
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
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Re: Elfrid Payton and Public Perception
tillyoubleed wrote:yoyojw17 wrote:drsd wrote:
Reading this list: what Payton has over those three is height and length. Payton has demonstrated a physical ability to be a lock-down defender. He simply has not bought into maximising his defense as a way to become elite. What he could become is a guy that routinely holds Curry/Russell/Lillard to 4 for 15 shooting nights. That helps Orlando more than Payton developing a 3-ball.
I accept your views but I do not see this as the core problem. For me that Orlando is awful at SF and has no wing-depth at all is the reason the Magic suck on offense. Add a player like Porter Jr., and Payton (and Gordon) would likely florish. Right now we are kind of hoping that Simmons is that guy. But there is no reason to think so. So we fans get to wait another 3 years for Isaac to develop his Durant-styled game.
..
Our offense did get better after the all star break. At that point our starters were actually above average.
Our biggest problem last year..... was our bench play.... ranking dead last in the league. And that is one of the things that i am hoping has been addressed this year. whether it's adding our new players to the bench.... moving starters (i.e. ross) to the bench.... isaac ..... and hopefully a fresher and more prepared Mario.
Post All Star Game Starter results http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/17/6/diffeff/18-1
Post All Star Game Bench results http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/17/7/diffeff/18-1
Those stats would be more accurate if they didn't include the playoffs.
Wish there could have been more filter options... but the "last 10 games" is the best it does (sans the playoffs) ... which most people will now say.... "Doesn't matter everyone was either tanking or prepping for the playoffs". hahaha
Starters ranked 6th http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/17/6/diffeff/6-1
Bench Ranked 30th http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/17/7/diffeff/6-1