Zo or Shinn

Cheeze · Post #1 » by **Cheeze** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:10 am

An interesting piece from Bonnell: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nba/charlotte-hornets/article162764983.html

The memory of the pain I felt when Mourning was traded still lingers. I remember being so angry. Who was at fault? Zo or Shinn? Was it the city, who didn't want to cough up for a new arena?

All I know is that the Hornets had something special, really special here for a while. And Alonzo Mourning was traded. The franchise never really recovered from that.

Post #2 » by **fatlever** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:35 am

truth probably in the middle

Rich4114 · Post #3 » by **Rich4114** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:08 am

fatlever wrote:truth probably in the middle

That's what I would guess. Though Shinn is pretty shady. It was a different NBA back then. We gave LJ a 12 year contract! Insane. I think Shinn was regretting that contract once the injuries hit and that affected the Zo contract talks more than anyone may realize. Just my hunch based on the timing of things.

So many close what could have beens with this franchise. Both iterations. I recently read some article about how close we were to all of these franchise centers since the beggining. Does anyone remember that we basically also lost out on Chris Paul due to a coin flip to break a tie with the franchise we lost (new orleans) after a win against the eventual Detroit Piston championship team that was resting all of their starters the last game of the season? Then to make matters worse we could have traded the picks we used Felton and May on for CP3 lol. We were oh so close to starting out with Dwight Howard and CP3 to reboot with. Smdh.

Ok sorry for the rant. I believe Zo more than Shinn but I am sure there was more Faulk/Zo could have done as well.

vorbis · Post #4 » by **vorbis** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:13 am

I disagree the franchise never recovered from Zo. some of their best years were in the years following that trade. Glen Rice was a huge star as a Hornet, definitely a bigger success for his position than Zo was when he was here. I wish they had been able to keep Mourning but Bob Bass was in the middle of a very impressive run as GM during that period.

Vanderbilt_Grad · Post #5 » by **Vanderbilt_Grad** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:58 am

Bob Bass made egg salad out of the egg leftovers from losing Zo. Amazing GM.

As for who was at fault. It was both of them, but I blame Shinn more than Zo. Shinn/LJ is one of the main reasons we have a rookie salary scale now.

countryboi · Post #6 » by **countryboi** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:16 pm

Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:Bob Bass made egg salad out of the egg leftovers from losing Zo. Amazing GM.

As for who was at fault. It was both of them, but I blame Shinn more than Zo. Shinn/LJ is one of the main reasons we have a rookie salary scale now.

Bob Bass was the most amazing GM no one has ever heard of....i remember being amazed at his ability to find value in the draft with late first, second round and undrafted guys. ie Ricky Davis, Jamaal Magloire, Brad Miller, Eddie Robinson, and Malik Rose

Kembastockton · Post #7 » by **Kembastockton** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:40 pm

I blame Shinn. He said himself that Zo wanted more than he could afford. Zo wasan obvious hall of fame center during the peak years for NBA centers. I don't care who he had to trade. He should have kept Zo.

GlenRiceARoni · Post #8 » by **GlenRiceARoni** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:57 pm

We couldn't afford two $100m players. Heck no one was spending that much back then.

Don't forget rice was unreal circa '97. We still had some really solid teams in that era.

If wed signed mourning instead of Johnson we would have had some terrific teams though.

"Get Out the Way, Let the Real F. Ballas thru" - Juvenile

Hornet Mania · Post #9 » by **Hornet Mania** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:00 pm

I put it on Shinn. When you have that caliber of player you simply don't quibble about money, there is absolutely nothing to gain. Unless Zo was absolutely hell bent on leaving Charlotte it was ownership's responsibility to pony up.

Shinn was also notoriously cheap after the mid-90s, we went years without re-signing any of our free agents. Like everyone else has said, Bob Bass deserves incredible amounts of credit for the run of success during that period because he was working with one of the cheapest owners in the league in a market that had no FA appeal to begin with. He was an artist at trading guys that ownership had no intention of paying (Glen Rice, Eddie Jones) and getting back replacements that had much more to offer at a lower price.

chabber · Post #10 » by **chabber** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:16 pm

The franchise recovered about as well as it could on the basketball court. Bass was easily the best GM for any team in Charlotte history.

The Charlotte fan base is what's never recovered. That honeymoon phase was shattered and a lot of fans went straight to apathy. Sure it snowballed over time as things just kept getting worse with Shin, but I felt like a lot of people just abandoned ship after the Zo trade. Really, only since the Hornets name came back does it feel like their has been any kind of energy in our fan base.

LofJ · Post #11 » by **LofJ** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:25 pm

chabber wrote:The franchise recovered about as well as it could on the basketball court. Bass was easily the best GM for any team in Charlotte history.

The Charlotte fan base is what's never recovered. That honeymoon phase was shattered and a lot of fans went straight to apathy. Sure it snowballed over time as things just kept getting worse with Shin, but I felt like a lot of people just abandoned ship after the Zo trade. Really, only since the Hornets name came back does it feel like their has been any kind of energy in our fan base.

It felt sooo good when that happened, like some justice had been restored to the world.

And the answer to this question is definitely Shinn, he mismanaged the finances of the team badly, lost Zo because of that, and then wanted the city to bail him out. MJ isn't perfect, but I'm damn happy he's the owner of the Charlotte Hornets. I hope we can all one day celebrate a championship together with MJ leading the way like he always has.

Cheeze · Post #12 » by **Cheeze** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:42 pm

And let us not forget the human pompadour, Ray Woolridge, whom Shinn picked for a minority stake instead of Michael Jordan.

Here's how Shinn remembers his time with Woolridge: https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/queen_city_agenda/2013/06/george-shinn-says-co-owner-hell-bent.html

Woolridge...that dude had a massive forehead.

Kembastockton · Post #13 » by **Kembastockton** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:18 pm

GlenRiceARoni wrote:We couldn't afford two $100m players. Heck no one was spending that much back then.

Don't forget rice was unreal circa '97. We still had some really solid teams in that era.

If wed signed mourning instead of Johnson we would have had some terrific teams though.

"Get Out the Way, Let the Real F. Ballas thru" - Juvenile

Imagine if we had traded LJ to Miami for Rice and expirings and a draft pick instead of Zo. I guess you missed the portion of my post when I said that I did not care who we had to trade to keep Zo.

Rich4114 · Post #14 » by **Rich4114** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:18 pm

Shinn likes to publically put blame on to everyone else and doesn't really take any responsibility for his own mistakes. He was majority owner and could have found a better way to get the arena. The city got one as soon as he left which tells you that the approach the franchise took (threatening) was a poor one and they knew it would lead to an exit which is what they wanted. Woolridge was brought in as a short term owner to help Shinn make more money. He looked at it as a business and not a passion. Huge difference between Shinn and MJ by the way.

Shinn was extremely lucky to have people around him early to build something. He was also in an ideal situation, an up and coming market with no other pro sports competition.

Rich4114 · Post #15 » by **Rich4114** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:25 pm

countryboi wrote:
Vanderbilt_Grad wrote:Bob Bass made egg salad out of the egg leftovers from losing Zo. Amazing GM.

As for who was at fault. It was both of them, but I blame Shinn more than Zo. Shinn/LJ is one of the main reasons we have a rookie salary scale now.

Bob Bass was the most amazing GM no one has ever heard of....i remember being amazed at his ability to find value in the draft with late first, second round and undrafted guys. ie Ricky Davis, Jamaal Magloire, Brad Miller, Eddie Robinson, and Malik Rose

We were so lucky to have him as our GM. He made awesome picks and then had to work magic to salvage them once Shinn wouldn't pay. He was able to parlay the LJ/Zo era into the Rice/Mason era and that into the Baron/Mashburn era with Eddie Jones as a stop gap. Obviously have to question the Kobe trade and he got lucky with the Baron pick, but good teams have a combination of smart moves, great scouting and luck.

Post #16 » by **fatlever** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:43 pm

Zo > Rice/Geiger > Jones/Elden > Mash/PJ
LJ > Mase

pretty solid return considering

chabber · Post #17 » by **chabber** » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:01 pm

I wanted to find a picture since we were all reminiscing. He's only 88 now, maybe he could still help Cho out, be an adviser like Jerry West.

Better yet does he have any kids?

Off topic, but talking about Bass made me think of the Spurs, since that's where he came from, isn't it crazy how many great front office guys the Spurs have had. I remember when Pop fired Coach Bob Hill after they won 60 games or so, I thought, WTF, this GM thinks it's that easy to be a coach? What an ass hat!.......Yup evidently it is.

Bassman · Post #18 » by **Bassman** » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:14 am

One mistake compounded everything else. Shinn was an idiot, but the biggest buffon was Spencer Stolpen. It was he who had zero experience in the sport, but was put into a key role because Shinn knew him. He was a teacher at Shinn's "business" school, and eventually President of the Hornets. It was Stolpen who bragged about the massive contract they gave to Larry Johnson. Even though LJ had a known back injury, they did it anyway. That contract hamstrung the team and placed Shinn in a box. He wouldn't pay Zo market value, and LJ was never the same.

Yes Bob Bass was amazing. If he had not parlayed so many great deals the Hornets might have sunk completely out of favor. We've had some really nice players wear the teal!

Kembastockton · Post #19 » by **Kembastockton** » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:51 pm

Rich4114 wrote:Shinn likes to publically put blame on to everyone else and doesn't really take any responsibility for his own mistakes. He was majority owner and could have found a better way to get the arena. The city got one as soon as he left which tells you that the approach the franchise took (threatening) was a poor one and they knew it would lead to an exit which is what they wanted. Woolridge was brought in as a short term owner to help Shinn make more money. He looked at it as a business and not a passion. Huge difference between Shinn and MJ by the way.

Shinn was extremely lucky to have people around him early to build something. He was also in an ideal situation, an up and coming market with no other pro sports competition.

I read somewhere that the city denied the arena on purpose knowing they would get another team, because they wanted to get rid of Shinn. Inappopriately, @$$ _cking a honey bee? Really?

Obviously have to question the Kobe trade and he got lucky with the Baron pick, but good teams have a combination of smart moves, great scouting and luck.

To be fair Kobe had said he did not want to play here, and Bass could not have known that Kobe would go on to become the second greatest two guard of all time.

Vanderbilt_Grad · Post #20 » by **Vanderbilt_Grad** » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:59 am

MountBiyombo wrote:I read somewhere that the city denied the arena on purpose knowing they would get another team, because they wanted to get rid of Shinn. Inappopriately, @$$ _cking a honey bee? Really?

No, and it was complicated.

When the original Hive was built the process was a mess. The City built an old style arena without luxury boxes just as the NBA was transitioning to boxes. Shinn was 100% right that it needed to be updated if the team was going to stay competitive. That said, I'm also certain that he already wanted out of Charlotte. Things had soured here for him in a big way and he brought Ray in understanding that either the team would move (most likely) or that a desperate City would cave and give him everything he wanted. No one knew for certain that the NBA would put a team here again.

As for the Honey Bee and some of the other Shinn shenanigans ... I have my own theory there. Shinn was out of commission for well over a year after a bad stroke. The worst of his behavior came after that, and frankly inappropriate behavior afterwards isn't uncommon for some stroke victims. The Honey Bee one was the worst for the team on the court though. She was dating the starting SF, Scott Burrell, but Shinn wanted her. He had Scott traded so he could get her.