RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #9

[Colbinii]

Well hopefully I can squeeze in my vote, but I just arrived at the gym and can't post much info.

1. Kevin Garnett - I was very impressed by the discussion around Hakeem, Bird, and Bryant in this thread. I think some of the points raised about Hakeems weaker 90s makes me want to side with Bird, and perhaps even Kobe, over Hakeem.

2. Kobe Bryant

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[penbeast0]

HERE IS THE VOTE COUNT

-1-
wojoaderge --- Bird, Mikan
Narigo -- Hakeem, KMalone
Winsome Gerbil -- No support
penbeast0--Mikan, Hakeem
JordansBulls -- Kobe, Bird
BasketballFan7 -- Hakeem, Erving
-2-
kayess -- KG, Hakeem
scrabbarista -- Bird, Kobe
Dr Positivity -- KG, Bird
ardee -- Kobe, Bird
Outside -- Bird, Hakeem
-3-
Hornet Mania -- Hakeem, Kobe
Joao Saraiva -- Hakeem, Kobe
micahclay -- KG, Hakeem
janmagn -- Hakeem, Bird
Doctor MJ -- KG, Hakeem
-4-
2klegend -- Bird, Hakeem
-5-
Tesla -- Kobe, Bird
andrewww-- Kobe, Hakeem
trex_8063 -- Hakeem, ____
drza -- KG, Hakeem
oldschooled -- Kobe, Bird
eminence -- KG, Hakeem
-6-
Colbinii -- KG, Kobe

After the initial votes, it ranks:
Hakeem 7
Garnett 6
Kobe 5
Bird 4
Mikan 1

Mikan is removed adding one vote to Hakeem
Bird is removed adding 2 Hakeems, 1 Kobe (and 1 Mikan)
Kobe is removed 1 Hakeem (and 4 Birds)

Hakeem wins this spot

[Outside]

Sorry that I didn't respond sooner. Life intervenes, as it will for next week or so. But considering that Hakeem won this thread and Bird and Kobe are still active choices, I hope that continuing the discussion has value.

So interestingly, in the Playoffs, Bird actually shot worse than Kobe from 3. Kobe was 33.1% while Bird was 32.1%.

So point to Kobe, though Bird's RS percentage advantage over Kobe is much larger (37.6 compared to 32.9 for Kobe).

And like I said, when you measure relative TS%, as in, the advantage the player has over the average TS% in the league that year, it already accounts for the era difference. And Bird was still ahead by .15% in rTS%. How is that clear? That is infinitesmal. It means they are for all intents and purposes the same.

I think you missed my point. I understand the rTS% is relative to players in their era and that those numbers are similar for Bird and Kobe. However, if Bird shot threes at the higher rate that players did in Kobe's era, his rTS% would be significantly higher because his 3PT% was both higher than other players in his era and much higher than Kobe's.

Only 10.0% of Bird's FGAs were threes compared to 21.6% for Kobe. What you're saying is that if 21.6% of Bird's FGAs were threes and everyone else in Bird's era shot them at a comparably higher rate, then everyone's TS% would go up and Bird's rTS% would stay the same. But I'm saying that there's another factor -- Bird's 3PT%, which was always among the leaders. Because his 3PT% is higher, he would get a bigger bump in his TS% than his fellow players, and his rTS% would then rise significantly.

Taking more threes would amplify Bird's advantage in 3PT% and increase his rTS%. He gets more of a bump than Kobe in rTS% by shooting threes because his 3PT% is so much higher than Kobe's.

1. Pure APG is not a good measure of playmaking ability. For example, is Rondo a better playmaker than Kobe, LeBron, Wade or Bird?

Agreed that Rondo is the poster child for APG not always being a good measure of playmaking ablity, but Rondo is the exception. Bird was indeed an exceptional playmaker, and his APG reflects that. Anyone who watched Bird play would say that. Kobe was good, but Bird was better.

2. Kobe played in the triangle. That did not allow him to pound the ball too much and get assists. Most assists were off the fly and a part of ball movement sequences. He averaged 5.2 apg for his prime: he's an SG, not Chris Paul. That's basically what Jordan did. How are those numbers not great? It's not his job to get assists, it's his job to score.

Those are indeed good assist numbers. But your argument that Kobe was a SG and it's not his job to get assists doesn't hold in the comparison to Bird, who was a SF and handled the ball significantly less than Kobe. If it isn't a SG's job to get assists, it's even less the job of a SF.

I'm not saying that Kobe wasn't good at playmaking and assists. He was indeed good and sometimes very good. But Bird was very good and often exceptional.

3. And last not not least, like I said, Kobe and Bird's assist percentage are basically the same. They both assisted the same percentage of their teammates baskets while on the court. Bird's higher raw assist numbers are because of the higher pace he played at.

If you don't mind me asking, could you provide a link to these assist percentages?

As for pace, per 100 stats compensate for that, and Bird's per 100 assists is 7.9 while Kobe's is 6.7. Again, Kobe is very good, but Bird is better in this area.

[ardee]

Sorry that I didn't respond sooner. Life intervenes, as it will for next week or so. But considering that Hakeem won this thread and Bird and Kobe are still active choices, I hope that continuing the discussion has value.

So interestingly, in the Playoffs, Bird actually shot worse than Kobe from 3. Kobe was 33.1% while Bird was 32.1%.

So point to Kobe, though Bird's RS percentage advantage over Kobe is much larger (37.6 compared to 32.9 for Kobe).

And like I said, when you measure relative TS%, as in, the advantage the player has over the average TS% in the league that year, it already accounts for the era difference. And Bird was still ahead by .15% in rTS%. How is that clear? That is infinitesmal. It means they are for all intents and purposes the same.

I think you missed my point. I understand the rTS% is relative to players in their era and that those numbers are similar for Bird and Kobe. However, if Bird shot threes at the higher rate that players did in Kobe's era, his rTS% would be significantly higher because his 3PT% was both higher than other players in his era and much higher than Kobe's.

Only 10.0% of Bird's FGAs were threes compared to 21.6% for Kobe. What you're saying is that if 21.6% of Bird's FGAs were threes and everyone else in Bird's era shot them at a comparably higher rate, then everyone's TS% would go up and Bird's rTS% would stay the same. But I'm saying that there's another factor -- Bird's 3PT%, which was always among the leaders. Because his 3PT% is higher, he would get a bigger bump in his TS% than his fellow players, and his rTS% would then rise significantly.

Taking more threes would amplify Bird's advantage in 3PT% and increase his rTS%. He gets more of a bump than Kobe in rTS% by shooting threes because his 3PT% is so much higher than Kobe's.

1. Pure APG is not a good measure of playmaking ability. For example, is Rondo a better playmaker than Kobe, LeBron, Wade or Bird?

Agreed that Rondo is the poster child for APG not always being a good measure of playmaking ablity, but Rondo is the exception. Bird was indeed an exceptional playmaker, and his APG reflects that. Anyone who watched Bird play would say that. Kobe was good, but Bird was better.

2. Kobe played in the triangle. That did not allow him to pound the ball too much and get assists. Most assists were off the fly and a part of ball movement sequences. He averaged 5.2 apg for his prime: he's an SG, not Chris Paul. That's basically what Jordan did. How are those numbers not great? It's not his job to get assists, it's his job to score.

Those are indeed good assist numbers. But your argument that Kobe was a SG and it's not his job to get assists doesn't hold in the comparison to Bird, who was a SF and handled the ball significantly less than Kobe. If it isn't a SG's job to get assists, it's even less the job of a SF.

I'm not saying that Kobe wasn't good at playmaking and assists. He was indeed good and sometimes very good. But Bird was very good and often exceptional.

3. And last not not least, like I said, Kobe and Bird's assist percentage are basically the same. They both assisted the same percentage of their teammates baskets while on the court. Bird's higher raw assist numbers are because of the higher pace he played at.

If you don't mind me asking, could you provide a link to these assist percentages?

As for pace, per 100 stats compensate for that, and Bird's per 100 assists is 7.9 while Kobe's is 6.7. Again, Kobe is very good, but Bird is better in this area.

AST% is on BBR. Just go down to regular season advanced stats.

[Euroballer]

Lebron

[Euroballer]

Damn, you have Tim Duncan over Bird and Lebron at 3rd, this thread is must be satire ;D

Thanks for the laughs guys

[Purch]

Damn, you have Tim Duncan over Bird and Lebron at 3rd, this thread is must be satire ;D

Thanks for the laughs guys

Why would you have Bird over Duncan?

[JoeMalburg]

Next five should be:

Bird
Kobe
Mikan
Hakeem
Doctor J

[thekdog34]

In my weighted metric incorporating Top 5 MVP finishes, he is fifth all-time. Kobe is tied for tenth, and Hakeem is twenty-second. Were voters that biased? That ignorant? It's a pretty huge gap (b/w Bird and Dream, especially).

We just saw an MVP race where James Harden and Russell Westbrook each received more votes than LeBron James and Steph Curry combined.