Discuss Ernie Grunfeld's GM skills here (Part 2)

[CobraCommander]

are we NOT interested in 18 and 4...aka Derrick Rose?

[payitforward]

Certainly not interested in Rose. Don't know what your numbers refer to.

[tontoz]

Certainly not interested in Rose. Don't know what your numbers refer to.

Rose averaged 18 pts and 4 assists this past season. He is basically a shooting guard who can't shoot 3s and doesn't play D, not to mention his low bbiq and inflated ego. No thanks.

[Dat2U]

are we NOT interested in 18 and 4...aka Derrick Rose?

I wouldn't want Derrick Rose in a Wizards uniform even at the veteran minimum.

I think he's a shadow of his former self. He hasn't been healthy AND good in almost half a decade!

He's consistently been a huge net negative to the Bulls & Knicks when on the floor b/c he stagnates ball movement searching for mid-range jump shots and he can't defend anyone.

I pray he goes to Cleveland as Kyrie's replacement. That would make me quite happy.

[closg00]

This past season, Washington was one game away from its first Eastern Conference final in close to 40 years. With its core together and with so much uncertainty across the rest of the East, it seems as if the Wizards will, at minimum, be able to replicate that success over the next few seasons even without any additions.

And while some in Washington will see that and reflexively say the front office, led by team President Ernie Grunfeld, hasn’t done enough, it is worth reminding that the franchise hasn’t been this competitive since the Unseld days.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/john-wall-agreeing-to-re-sign-is-a-seminal-moment-for-wizards-franchise/2017/07/22/8a897c1a-6e8f-11e7-96ab-5f38140b38cc_story.html?utm_term=.9b31111f8e95#comments

Tim Bontemp, channeling Grunfeld/Monumental talking points, unbelievable steaming pile of crap article.

[verbal8]

This past season, Washington was one game away from its first Eastern Conference final in close to 40 years. With its core together and with so much uncertainty across the rest of the East, it seems as if the Wizards will, at minimum, be able to replicate that success over the next few seasons even without any additions.

And while some in Washington will see that and reflexively say the front office, led by team President Ernie Grunfeld, hasn’t done enough, it is worth reminding that the franchise hasn’t been this competitive since the Unseld days.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/john-wall-agreeing-to-re-sign-is-a-seminal-moment-for-wizards-franchise/2017/07/22/8a897c1a-6e8f-11e7-96ab-5f38140b38cc_story.html?utm_term=.9b31111f8e95#comments

Tim Bontemp, channeling Grunfeld/Monumental talking points, unbelievable steaming pile of crap article.

It might be the best team since Unseld as a player. However this has occurred despite having the worst GM since Unseld.

[payitforward]

In the 9 last NBA drafts, in which we have had 21 picks -- 5 of which were extremely high lottery picks (2 of those having been bumped from #8 to #s1 & 3 by the ping pong balls), 1 other also a lottery pick, 6 others of which were mid-R1 picks, 3 of which were high R2 picks, & the rest of which were miscellaneous R2 picks -- Ernie has managed to acquire exactly 4 genuine positive assets: Wall, Beal, Porter, Gortat (using a mid-R1 pick & much much else), 1 promising prospect in Oubre, & 1 potential journeyman (Sato).

We could also have had Steph Curry, Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried, Chandler Parsons, either Draymond Green or Jae Crowder, Kyle O'Quinn & many others as well.

In that time period, for a variety of reasons, Ernie had more & better resources at his command than just about any other GM in the league. What he has done with all that is that he has gotten us to the dizzying heights of 49 wins in the weak Eastern Conference. To do so, he has also already pre-spent some future draft picks we won't be able to make.

I'd say it's questionable that we can repeat that 49-win success in the coming season, although maybe we can. Even so, w/o the 2 ping pong ball lucky chances we wouldn't even be a playoff team. Ernie is completely incompetent.

[Kanyewest]

This past season, Washington was one game away from its first Eastern Conference final in close to 40 years. With its core together and with so much uncertainty across the rest of the East, it seems as if the Wizards will, at minimum, be able to replicate that success over the next few seasons even without any additions.

And while some in Washington will see that and reflexively say the front office, led by team President Ernie Grunfeld, hasn’t done enough, it is worth reminding that the franchise hasn’t been this competitive since the Unseld days.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/john-wall-agreeing-to-re-sign-is-a-seminal-moment-for-wizards-franchise/2017/07/22/8a897c1a-6e8f-11e7-96ab-5f38140b38cc_story.html?utm_term=.9b31111f8e95#comments

Tim Bontemp, channeling Grunfeld/Monumental talking points, unbelievable steaming pile of crap article.

It might be the best team since Unseld as a player. However this has occurred despite having the worst GM since Unseld.

Could be worse I suppose. If the Wizards had drafted Nerlens over Porter, the Wizards would be significantly worse. Although, it is pretty clear that the Wizards need to hire a different executive. I also think ownership is in part responsible in keeping a GM that has traded 3 of its past 4 first round picks in promoting a win now mentality rather than building for the future.

[payitforward]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/john-wall-agreeing-to-re-sign-is-a-seminal-moment-for-wizards-franchise/2017/07/22/8a897c1a-6e8f-11e7-96ab-5f38140b38cc_story.html?utm_term=.9b31111f8e95#comments

Tim Bontemp, channeling Grunfeld/Monumental talking points, unbelievable steaming pile of crap article.

It might be the best team since Unseld as a player. However this has occurred despite having the worst GM since Unseld.

Could be worse I suppose. If the Wizards had drafted Nerlens over Porter, the Wizards would be significantly worse. Although, it is pretty clear that the Wizards need to hire a different executive. I also think ownership is in part responsible in keeping a GM that has traded 3 of its past 4 first round picks in promoting a win now mentality rather than building for the future.

I'm sure you remember that Otto was thought to be the default pick at #3, w/ Noel meant to go #1 & Oladipo #2. Then Noel had an injury, & Cleveland surprised the world by taking Bennett #1 (what an awful pick that was!).

Most people here wanted Ernie to take Noel #3 -- & most of those people won't remember (or admit) that. A few wanted him to take Alex Len; they won't remember or admit that either. I don't remember whether there was some sentiment for taking Cody Zeller...? I think there were even a couple of folks who wanted us to pick Kelly Olynyk #3.

There was a fair amount of grumbling when we took Porter. And, in fact, the grumbling went on for at least a season maybe more. Only a few of us were happy w/ the pick of Porter & remained happy w/ it even when he too was injured & missed the whole of his rookie year.

We were meant to pick #8 that year, don't forget. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope went at that spot. The ping pong balls pushed us up. Had we been at #8, I imagine plenty of people would have wanted KC-P, as many were dissatisfied with Beal -- he was called a bust by quite a number of people here. Those people too won't remember or admit the sentiment.

But I think most would have wanted KC-P, Burke, McCollum, Carter-Williams or Olynyk. & for sure, no one pointed at Steven Adams or the Greek freak to take if we stayed at #8. & certainly not at Dieng or Rudy Gobert. Yet, leaving Porter out of it, those are clearly the 4 best players taken in R1 that year. In fact, Gobert @27 & Giannis @15 are flat out the best players out of that draft.

So... imagine no ping pong balls; Ernie would have picked #8 in 2010 & 2013, & instead of John Wall & Otto Porter, maybe we'd have Al Farouk Aminu (2010) & Michael Carter-Williams (2013)? How would that be, do you think? *




* Of course, we might have taken Gordon Hayward (2010) & Rudy Gobert (2013) !! & if we'd made it Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler & IT in 2011, then Beal, Draymond Green & Kyle O'Quinn in 2012, Jokic in 2014, that would have been... just dreaming that's all!!

[tontoz]

But I think most would have wanted KC-P, Burke, McCollum, Carter-Williams or Olynyk. & for sure, no one pointed at Steven Adams or the Greek freak to take if we stayed at #8. & certainly not at Dieng or Rudy Gobert. Yet, leaving Porter out of it, those are clearly the 4 best players taken in R1 that year. In fact, Gobert @27 & Giannis @15 are flat out the best players out of that draft.

Actually I remember WizD having a huge man-crush on Adams. I wish I could find his posts. They were pretty comical.

I was pro-Porter pre-draft and ok with it after the draft. I figured there had to be a legit reason why several teams passed on Noel.

[TGW]

I wanted Giannis. I wish I could find my post but I said that I wanted to trade down for him.

[montestewart]

It might be the best team since Unseld as a player. However this has occurred despite having the worst GM since Unseld.

Could be worse I suppose. If the Wizards had drafted Nerlens over Porter, the Wizards would be significantly worse. Although, it is pretty clear that the Wizards need to hire a different executive. I also think ownership is in part responsible in keeping a GM that has traded 3 of its past 4 first round picks in promoting a win now mentality rather than building for the future.

I'm sure you remember that Otto was thought to be the default pick at #3, w/ Noel meant to go #1 & Oladipo #2. Then Noel had an injury, & Cleveland surprised the world by taking Bennett #1 (what an awful pick that was!).

Most people here wanted Ernie to take Noel #3 -- & most of those people won't remember (or admit) that. A few wanted him to take Alex Len; they won't remember or admit that either. I don't remember whether there was some sentiment for taking Cody Zeller...? I think there were even a couple of folks who wanted us to pick Kelly Olynyk #3.

There was a fair amount of grumbling when we took Porter. And, in fact, the grumbling went on for at least a season maybe more. Only a few of us were happy w/ the pick of Porter & remained happy w/ it even when he too was injured & missed the whole of his rookie year.

We were meant to pick #8 that year, don't forget. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope went at that spot. The ping pong balls pushed us up. Had we been at #8, I imagine plenty of people would have wanted KC-P, as many were dissatisfied with Beal -- he was called a bust by quite a number of people here. Those people too won't remember or admit the sentiment.

But I think most would have wanted KC-P, Burke, McCollum, Carter-Williams or Olynyk. & for sure, no one pointed at Steven Adams or the Greek freak to take if we stayed at #8. & certainly not at Dieng or Rudy Gobert. Yet, leaving Porter out of it, those are clearly the 4 best players taken in R1 that year. In fact, Gobert @27 & Giannis @15 are flat out the best players out of that draft.

So... imagine no ping pong balls; Ernie would have picked #8 in 2010 & 2013, & instead of John Wall & Otto Porter, maybe we'd have Al Farouk Aminu (2010) & Michael Carter-Williams (2013)? How would that be, do you think? *




* Of course, we might have taken Gordon Hayward (2010) & Rudy Gobert (2013) !! & if we'd made it Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler & IT in 2011, then Beal, Draymond Green & Kyle O'Quinn in 2012, Jokic in 2014, that would have been... just dreaming that's all!!

If I recall correctly, Noel being available at #3 didn't seem too likely until the day of the draft (although Hands called Noel at #6), so most did not seriously process that possibility for longer than a few minutes. I was among those who would have considered Noel but was perfectly happy with Porter. That seemed to be a general consensus, with many (again including me) figuring Noel's injury had to be factored into passing on him. You can see the largely positive reception in the initial pages of the first Otto Porter thread.

And, if I recall correctly, after the pick EGgo made a statement or two indicating that part of the reason behind choosing Porter over some other player (i.e. Noel) was related to his ability to contribute right away. So when Porter didn't contribute right away, some people understandably grumbled.

[Jay81]

Ernie Grunfeld has no skills outside of having some recent lottery ping pong ball luck

[queridiculo]

The WaPo's coverage of the Wizards is just as just as incredulous as the Grunfeld's tenure with the team.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wizards-insider/wp/2017/07/24/the-wizards-offseason-went-about-as-smoothly-as-they-could-have-imagined/?utm_term=.331e84fd91ee

Although Washington worked around its 2016 signing of Andrew Nicholson, shedding his $6 million annual salary in a trade-deadline deal that later allowed the team to keep Porter at any price, it remained over the salary cap, limiting the Wizards’ buying power in free agency.

Does the Post get is soundbites straight from the Wizards front office, how on earth can crap like this pass for sports journalism?

[Kanyewest]

Could be worse I suppose. If the Wizards had drafted Nerlens over Porter, the Wizards would be significantly worse. Although, it is pretty clear that the Wizards need to hire a different executive. I also think ownership is in part responsible in keeping a GM that has traded 3 of its past 4 first round picks in promoting a win now mentality rather than building for the future.

I'm sure you remember that Otto was thought to be the default pick at #3, w/ Noel meant to go #1 & Oladipo #2. Then Noel had an injury, & Cleveland surprised the world by taking Bennett #1 (what an awful pick that was!).

Most people here wanted Ernie to take Noel #3 -- & most of those people won't remember (or admit) that. A few wanted him to take Alex Len; they won't remember or admit that either. I don't remember whether there was some sentiment for taking Cody Zeller...? I think there were even a couple of folks who wanted us to pick Kelly Olynyk #3.

There was a fair amount of grumbling when we took Porter. And, in fact, the grumbling went on for at least a season maybe more. Only a few of us were happy w/ the pick of Porter & remained happy w/ it even when he too was injured & missed the whole of his rookie year.

We were meant to pick #8 that year, don't forget. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope went at that spot. The ping pong balls pushed us up. Had we been at #8, I imagine plenty of people would have wanted KC-P, as many were dissatisfied with Beal -- he was called a bust by quite a number of people here. Those people too won't remember or admit the sentiment.

But I think most would have wanted KC-P, Burke, McCollum, Carter-Williams or Olynyk. & for sure, no one pointed at Steven Adams or the Greek freak to take if we stayed at #8. & certainly not at Dieng or Rudy Gobert. Yet, leaving Porter out of it, those are clearly the 4 best players taken in R1 that year. In fact, Gobert @27 & Giannis @15 are flat out the best players out of that draft.

So... imagine no ping pong balls; Ernie would have picked #8 in 2010 & 2013, & instead of John Wall & Otto Porter, maybe we'd have Al Farouk Aminu (2010) & Michael Carter-Williams (2013)? How would that be, do you think? *




* Of course, we might have taken Gordon Hayward (2010) & Rudy Gobert (2013) !! & if we'd made it Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler & IT in 2011, then Beal, Draymond Green & Kyle O'Quinn in 2012, Jokic in 2014, that would have been... just dreaming that's all!!

If I recall correctly, Noel being available at #3 didn't seem too likely until the day of the draft (although Hands called Noel at #6), so most did not seriously process that possibility for longer than a few minutes. I was among those who would have considered Noel but was perfectly happy with Porter. That seemed to be a general consensus, with many (again including me) figuring Noel's injury had to be factored into passing on him. You can see the largely positive reception in the initial pages of the first Otto Porter thread.

And, if I recall correctly, after the pick EGgo made a statement or two indicating that part of the reason behind choosing Porter over some other player (i.e. Noel) was related to his ability to contribute right away. So when Porter didn't contribute right away, some people understandably grumbled.

I remember posting about how Ryen Russillo/Bill Simmons thought that there was a possibility that Noel was going to slip because of the injury concerns, lack of weight, what position he was going to play, lack of a perimeter game, and the people surrounding him. I admit I was confused when Zeller and Len were picked ahead of Noel, although there were some people who had rated Zeller/Len higher in the rumor mill so it wasn't that surprising. The Jazz already had Favors and wanted a point guard (and made up for that pick by getting Gobert later). The real shocker was Anthony Bennett at #1 since most mock drafts had him going in the 8-10 range.

NBADraft.net http://www.nbadraft.net/2013mock_draft (Len at #1, Noel #4)
Draftexpress http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2013/ (Noel #1)

[payitforward]

At least one regular here wanted Anthony Bennett.... Not outing him!

[pcbothwel]

But I think most would have wanted KC-P, Burke, McCollum, Carter-Williams or Olynyk. & for sure, no one pointed at Steven Adams or the Greek freak to take if we stayed at #8. & certainly not at Dieng or Rudy Gobert. Yet, leaving Porter out of it, those are clearly the 4 best players taken in R1 that year. In fact, Gobert @27 & Giannis @15 are flat out the best players out of that draft.

Actually I remember WizD having a huge man-crush on Adams. I wish I could find his posts. They were pretty comical.

I was pro-Porter pre-draft and ok with it after the draft. I figured there had to be a legit reason why several teams passed on Noel.

I liked Porter, but didnt love him. I really worried about his athleticism and range on his shot with his unorthodox form.
I also liked Oladipo and Bennett, but wasnt high on Noel, Len, McLemore, and Muhammad. KCP worried me with his ability to score as a SG. I was high on Bennett early on as I thought he could stretch the floor from the PF position while being able to run/create in the open floor with Wall & Beal. I became a little more tepid on him the week of the draft, but still thought he was a top 7 player... Oh well, we all have them.

TBH, I was sold on Wall and Beal, so I didnt give much time to Guards. I remember liking McCallum, Jamal Franklin, Muscala, Bullock, Goodwin and Tony Mitchell in the 2nd round

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I wanted a trade down for Olynyk plus a player or a later pick. I thought Otto would be, however, a real good fit next to Wall and Beal.

Otto is a better player than I thought.

Too bad EG wasn't able to get Olynyk as a free agent along with resigning Porter.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

[payitforward]

Just had a thought... using hindsight, what would be the best draft-night trades of picks we could have made in this decade -- doesn't have to be practical, but something that in principle would be likely to have worked.

One example comes to mind: for the #6 pick in 2011, you would think in principle a team would have been able to pick up the #15, #30 & #60 picks in the same draft. As it turns out, that would have gotten Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler & Isaiah Thomas! Not a bad haul?

I know this is not "realistic" strictly speaking -- those pick were held by 3 different teams! But if in some draft you saw the # 6 go for the #s15, 30 & 60, it wouldn't be shocking.

[Kanyewest]

Just had a thought... using hindsight, what would be the best draft-night trades of picks we could have made in this decade -- doesn't have to be practical, but something that in principle would be likely to have worked.

One example comes to mind: for the #6 pick in 2011, you would think in principle a team would have been able to pick up the #15, #30 & #60 picks in the same draft. As it turns out, that would have gotten Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler & Isaiah Thomas! Not a bad haul?

I know this is not "realistic" strictly speaking -- those pick were held by 3 different teams! But if in some draft you saw the # 6 go for the #s15, 30 & 60, it wouldn't be shocking.

In 2013, Wizards trade the #3 pick to Minnesota for the #14 and #21 and their 2014 2nd rounder which was #40.

2013 #14- Giannis
2013 #21- Gobert
2014 #40- Jokic