Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion

[oddity]

Gambo also keeps saying that the Suns 2018 1st is almost completly off the table as well. That might be the piece that ultimately gets the deal done.

What about:

Bledsoe, PHX 1st (2018)

For Irving, Frye

Pick is unprotected in the year they may lose LeBron. They save $$$. Idk if I would do it. Probably would. But Irving was a #1 pick.

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Hell no. If you are in Phx's situation, you would rather have 1 of Doncic, Porter, Ayton, or Bamba than Kyrie just out of fit and age and salary. Let alone the leverage of the situation. Phoenix doesn't need to up its offer until a better offer comes along. Until then, Phoenix shouldn't be in a rush b/c Cleveland is the time under the gun right now. The longer this drags out the worse it is for them.

There is still a lot between us and Doncic or Porter though. We might surprise and actually not be a top 5 worst team this year, and even if we are we would then have to contend w the ping pong gods to get us into the top 3, which I have no hope of the suns actually getting w their luck... that pick is really a crapshoot, and I would rather secure a good player now knowing we still have a host of picks down the pipeline to rely on.

[BobbieL]

If trading Bledsoe, I still prefer a way to move for Frank N - heck would love Jamal Murray, but that's not happening - but Frank N if the price is right. I don't think Irving is the right fit.

But, if you can get Irving for the right price, maybe somehow include Chandler, a draft pick - I think its worth doing as you are a better team.

Don't give up Jackson or the unprotected Suns pick - but I am open to it.

Still would prefer a three way with Denver :

Denver: Kyrie - they get Kyrie but to have to give up Murray and cap filler

Cleveland: Bledsoe, Chandler Chriss OR the Heat Pick plus a second rounder

Phoenix: Murray, Arthur, Nelson, Frye and Shumpert - suns get the younger PG, plus some expirings in Frye/Nelson, Shumpert and Arthur roll of in 2019

[oddity]

Gambo update:
- Josh Jackson is not being traded, 2018 Pick highly unlikely to be traded.
- Reiterates sources tell him 0% chance Irving gets traded to Phoenix, not even 1%, specifically 0%.

I don't mind the small ball lineup because we need to figure out if it works before we're a contender. The Miami and GSW teams weren't good rebounders so can we get the same benefits to outweight the costs.

He's right. At this time there's a 0% chance he gets traded here w/o JJ being included but Cleveland's GM said himself it's a "fluid situation". As time goes on things can change.

TBH, I don't think Gilbert trades him unless a Wiggins-caliber package is coming back.

So...a 'Warren-caliber' pkg, then. But since we are out of the hunt, it'll be another team.

I know, a lot of you are moaning...'no, Warren is not of Wiggins caliber...', well, to that I say, why then, do most of the Advanced stats say otherwise?

http://bkref.com/tiny/oeJt5

http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=warren
http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=wiggins

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CA4KxmzjZrTlYqxNU85jkUnCcqvJjsP5LT818LSYjkk/edit#gid=0
(Not sure how this will come across to anyone else, but point, Warren is 1074th, Wiggins is 1356th - neither stellar, but another point...Len is 586th...

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sf/league/west
http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sg/league/west

These last two show mixed results, but with Wiggins getting more playing time, his Usage rate is going to be higher, but again, these are split--Warren has him in all the Reb, TS%, TOV, but loses out PER, VA, and EWA...for last season ONLY...

OK, getting off my...

I've seen you make this Warren is as good as Wiggins argument a lot, and I there are a few things you must consider. The first is that these players are still young and growing, and Wiggins' elite level athleticism gives a much higher ceiling than T.J. Wiggins also has a budding albeit unpolished post game, and with it the ability to isolate and create for himself, which is something that Warren may never be great at. The biggest difference between them is the role they project towards. Wiggins will be a top 2 scoring option on a team, where he will be given the responsibility of creating, while Warren projects as a third or fourth option, getting most of his baskets off of weakside cuts and transition with really high efficiency. Wiggins so far has largely been a disappointment for me, as he hasn't yet shown the ability to defend and clearly does NOT have a very good BBIQ, but he still has a ton of time to improve, and I'd rather him over Warren any day.

[bwgood77]

What are Minnesota even offering without Wiggins.

That's what I'm trying to figure out. That, along with all the other rumored teams...the Clips, the Knicks and the Spurs..I guess the Spurs probably offered Aldridge, Patty Mills and/or Danny Green and a pick or two. Maybe Dejounte Murray as well.

The Knicks may offer some unprotected or lightly protected picks since he really wants to play there. What we should do is try and get Ntilikina and 1 of those picks, and then the Cavs could get Bledsoe, Dudley and a Knicks pick as well or something.

But I am going to start warming up to the idea of Irving anyway...he plays a lot like IT, a style I didn't like, but he is efficient, and if he can spread the floor, he doesn't pass that much less than IT, and really all that much less than Bledsoe. He obviously helps the offense, even though we will almost certainly have the worst defense in the league. Booker will have to learn to live in his shadow, and definitely be the 2nd option, but that's life.

[bwgood77]

He's right. At this time there's a 0% chance he gets traded here w/o JJ being included but Cleveland's GM said himself it's a "fluid situation". As time goes on things can change.

TBH, I don't think Gilbert trades him unless a Wiggins-caliber package is coming back.

So...a 'Warren-caliber' pkg, then. But since we are out of the hunt, it'll be another team.

I know, a lot of you are moaning...'no, Warren is not of Wiggins caliber...', well, to that I say, why then, do most of the Advanced stats say otherwise?

http://bkref.com/tiny/oeJt5

http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=warren
http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/players?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=wiggins

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CA4KxmzjZrTlYqxNU85jkUnCcqvJjsP5LT818LSYjkk/edit#gid=0
(Not sure how this will come across to anyone else, but point, Warren is 1074th, Wiggins is 1356th - neither stellar, but another point...Len is 586th...

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sf/league/west
http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sg/league/west

These last two show mixed results, but with Wiggins getting more playing time, his Usage rate is going to be higher, but again, these are split--Warren has him in all the Reb, TS%, TOV, but loses out PER, VA, and EWA...for last season ONLY...

OK, getting off my...

I've seen you make this Warren is as good as Wiggins argument a lot, and I there are a few things you must consider. The first is that these players are still young and growing, and Wiggins' elite level athleticism gives a much higher ceiling than T.J. Wiggins also has a budding albeit unpolished post game, and with it the ability to isolate and create for himself, which is something that Warren may never be great at. The biggest difference between them is the role they project towards. Wiggins will be a top 2 scoring option on a team, where he will be given the responsibility of creating, while Warren projects as a third or fourth option, getting most of his baskets off of weakside cuts and transition with really high efficiency. Wiggins so far has largely been a disappointment for me, as he hasn't yet shown the ability to defend and clearly does NOT have a very good BBIQ, but he still has a ton of time to improve, and I'd rather him over Warren any day.

Yeah, Warren's better now, but Wiggins has far more upside, and you can say with Booker, and it's quite obvious both have far more trade value than Warren. Booker and Wiggins can hit the 3, which is extremely valuable in the league today's NBA. Warren may have better overall advanced #s than both and be the all around better player (slightly), but there is almost no doubt they will both surpass him.

And I love Warren. I really hope we keep him and give him another contract. He should be reasonable and can really help the team win. He was almost always on down the stretch, and through other's inconsistencies, he would single handedly keep us in games. He's a different kind of player than people pine for these days, but he does have a place imo.

[gaspar]

Woj:

Altman and the Cavaliers haven't been overzealous on the phones. They've been deliberate in returning calls and canvassing for offers, trying to create the illusion that there's no urgency, no desperation. Whether it works to solicit more aggressive offers or not, they'll find out soon enough.

That could explain why Gambo's "sources" are saying what they are saying.

[bwgood77]

Gambo also keeps saying that the Suns 2018 1st is almost completly off the table as well. That might be the piece that ultimately gets the deal done.

What about:

Bledsoe, PHX 1st (2018)

For Irving, Frye

Pick is unprotected in the year they may lose LeBron. They save $$$. Idk if I would do it. Probably would. But Irving was a #1 pick.

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Hell no. If you are in Phx's situation, you would rather have 1 of Doncic, Porter, Ayton, or Bamba than Kyrie just out of fit and age and salary. Let alone the leverage of the situation. Phoenix doesn't need to up its offer until a better offer comes along. Until then, Phoenix shouldn't be in a rush b/c Cleveland is the time under the gun right now. The longer this drags out the worse it is for them.

There is still a lot between us and Doncic or Porter though. We might surprise and actually not be a top 5 worst team this year, and even if we are we would then have to contend w the ping pong gods to get us into the top 3, which I have no hope of the suns actually getting w their luck... that pick is really a crapshoot, and I would rather secure a good player now knowing we still have a host of picks down the pipeline to rely on.

No, don't trade that pick, but if you do, it HAS to be top 5 protected at minimum...I'd prefer top 7. You are right...there is a decent chance we finish with like the 5th-8th worst record, or maybe a tad better...like 10th worst with Irving..but I'd keep that pick off the table or with decent protection.

[BobbieL]

From ESPN Insider - the Cleveland trade needs to have that first round pick with better protection. Protect it to 10 for me and instead of two second rounders, they get the Heat pick if need be as I think the Suns need more than top 6;

Destination: Phoenix Suns

Suns get: Kyrie Irving, Iman Shumpert and Richard Jefferson

Cavaliers get: Eric Bledsoe, TJ Warren, Jared Dudley, Miami's 2021 unprotected first-round pick and first-round swap rights with Phoenix in 2018 (protected for picks Nos. 1-6; converts to second-rounders in 2018 and 2019 if not conveyed)

View in ESPN's Trade Machine

Bobby Marks: Cleveland is built to win now but also has to consider a possible rebuild in 2018 if LeBron James leaves. This deal should accomplish their goals (and get Irving out of the East): Bledsoe is a starting point guard in his mid 20s, Warren's contract is controllable because he hits restricted free agency next summer, Dudley brings a veteran presence and the Cavs could use the extra draft picks.

Unlike in 2010 when James left for Miami, Cleveland would be well-positioned for the 2018-19 season. A core of Bledsoe, Warren, Dudley, Kevin Love, Thompson and JR Smith would be good enough to compete for a playoff spot. This also would drop the Cavs' luxury tax commitment from $78.4 million to $59.6 million.

Suns GM Ryan McDonough would need to figure out if Irving is willing to commit long term before using significant assets to acquire the point guard. To find that answer, Phoenix has to have a conversation with Irving's agent, Jeff Wechsler. The Cavs also could give the Suns permission to meet with Irving. Although Irving is under contract, the Suns would use the meeting similar to a free-agent visit to sell the All-Star on the benefits of playing in Phoenix. For two years the Suns would need to treat Irving as a free agent under contract and use the next 24 months to recruit him in-house.

Pairing Irving with rising star Devin Booker would give the Suns a formidable duo. Shumpert would replace Dudley and Jefferson would return home. In 2019 when Irving and Booker are free agents, Phoenix could have $30 million in cap space to land an impact free agent and also bring back its backcourt.


Destination: Phoenix Suns (with help from the Knicks)

Suns get: Kyrie Irving, Mindaugas Kuzminskas and Willy Hernangomez

Knicks get: Kevin Love and Iman Shumpert

Cavaliers get: Carmelo Anthony, Eric Bledsoe and Jared Dudley

View in ESPN's Trade Machine

Tom Haberstroh: Let's kill two birds with one stone, shall we? LeBron gets his man Carmelo Anthony while also arming himself with a pair of two-way players in Bledsoe and Dudley. Bledsoe can defend both guard positions and Dudley unlocks some much-needed versatility on the other end.

Above all else, the Cavs need a defensive upgrade and this deal would achieve that for a team that ranked 29th in defensive efficiency after the All-Star break. Even more, Anthony's presence also could entice James to re-sign with his pal in Cleveland rather than bolt for greener pastures.

The Knicks would do this deal to get a fresh start in the post-Melo world while not having to give up Kristaps Porzingis. Phoenix gets a star to replace Bledsoe and a promising young stud in Hernangomez. Devin Booker and Irving would rival Portland, Golden State and Washington as the top scoring backcourt in the league. While I like a straight-up deal of Kyrie Irving for Eric Bledsoe and Jared Dudley, this trade would also bring a welcome conclusion to the MeloDrama in New York.

[Qwigglez]

I would trade our pick with top 7 protection for sure, however I would add one more thing and make it a pick swap if it were outside the top 7. That way we may be able to get a draft and stash prospect in the late 20's.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

GO AWAY KYRIE IRVING. Give Josh Jackson the **** ball.

[Damkac]

Don't want Kyrie. I hope some other team will trade for him soon.

[ATTL]

Walk away from kyrie, not worth it at this point.

[Villalobos]

Cavaliers get: Eric Bledsoe, TJ Warren, Jared Dudley, Miami's 2021 unprotected first-round pick and first-round swap rights with Phoenix in 2018 (protected for picks Nos. 1-6; converts to second-rounders in 2018 and 2019 if not conveyed)

View in ESPN's Trade Machine

Bobby Marks: Cleveland is built to win now but also has to consider a possible rebuild in 2018 if LeBron James leaves. This deal should accomplish their goals (and get Irving out of the East)

This is like more than the value of what PG + Butler got combined. Insane. No one is offering anything close to that. Bobby Marks should stick to salary stuff.

[BobbieL]

Cavaliers get: Eric Bledsoe, TJ Warren, Jared Dudley, Miami's 2021 unprotected first-round pick and first-round swap rights with Phoenix in 2018 (protected for picks Nos. 1-6; converts to second-rounders in 2018 and 2019 if not conveyed)

View in ESPN's Trade Machine

Bobby Marks: Cleveland is built to win now but also has to consider a possible rebuild in 2018 if LeBron James leaves. This deal should accomplish their goals (and get Irving out of the East)

This is like more than the value of what PG + Butler got combined. Insane. No one is offering anything close to that. Bobby Marks should stick to salary stuff.

Paul George is on a one year deal. So his value is based on a one year deal

Kyrie Irving is at least two years so he probably would demand more in trade value. Butler has two years and an option as well

Maybe overstating what Marks and even I am offering for Kyrie.

[Villalobos]

Nah.

Bledsoe + Warren >>>>>>>>> Dipo with huge contract + Sabonis

Unprotected Miami pick far in future + great 2018 pick > 7th pick + 23 year old Dunn off horrible rookie year + ACL'd LaVine + having to give a first rounder back

Two superstars on three years combined, both players much better than Kyrie by themselves.

That package is crazy.

[LukasBMW]

The more I compare Bledsoe VS. Irving on stats alone, the less sold I am on Irving being a better player. That's not even considering defense.

Both have injury histories to consider also Bledsoe seems to be a bit more concerning there.

The eye test is a different story, I've watched Irving catch fire and take over games. Bledsoe can dominate, but it seems to happen less often.

Irving has a rep for being a better shooter, and from the eye test, I believe it, but again looking at the pure numbers, Bledsoe seems pretty comparable especially given his improved outside shot.

If we can do a straight up Bledsoe/Dudley/Miami 18" swap (with the Miami pick turning into the lesser of the Suns/Miami 2019 pick). I'm down.

Otherwise...I'm out.

[kennydorglas]

I liked a lot that second trade from Haberstroh.
Getting Irving, Kuzminskas and Willy for Bled & Dudley?

[bwoolf2]

If we make a trade I prefer getting Frank N. back and assets opposed to Kyrie, I tried to make it work I just dont think he is a fit next to Booker. I believe Booker takes a step back next to Kyrie and that D between the two of them would be just awful. Don't get me wrong Kyrie is clearly a great scorer I just think he is a bad fit and in any team sport fit is an important factor to consider.

[Saberestar]

I liked a lot that second trade from Haberstroh.
Getting Irving, Kuzminskas and Willy for Bled & Dudley?

Big steal for us.

[jredsaz]

And I don't think Murray is on the table.

Why wouldn't he be?

It was reported on the CBS Pod. The guy who hosts the pod said that Murray is untouchable in Denver. He was a beat writer for the Nuggets for a long time and lives in Denver.

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