VOTE: Would you trade Wiggins + filler for Kyrie?

[KGdaBom]

I'd put Kyrie in that 4-7 tier. Westbrook, Curry, Cp3 are comfortably better right now. After that he's bunched with Wall, Lillard, Lowry for me.

He's better than Thomas or Conley, IMO. Basically a bigger and better version of IT, and while Conley is a much better defender, he's a worse scorer by far and not much of a different playmaker.

OMG placing Kyrie on the same level as Wall????????????
In what universe would that ever happen.

[Klomp]

I'd put Kyrie in that 4-7 tier. Westbrook, Curry, Cp3 are comfortably better right now. After that he's bunched with Wall, Lillard, Lowry for me.

He's better than Thomas or Conley, IMO. Basically a bigger and better version of IT, and while Conley is a much better defender, he's a worse scorer by far and not much of a different playmaker.

OMG placing Kyrie on the same level as Wall????????????
In what universe would that ever happen.

I certainly don't disagree with moss.

He's getting judged negatively because his role changed. When Kevin Love went from a 26/13 player to a 16/10 player in one season, was it because he got dramatically worse? No. His role changed. He's no longer the top option on his team so he shouldn't be judged as if he's the top option.

That being said, the same unfair criticisms are being handed out to Wiggins by other posters. Some are expecting him to be the alpha dog on this team or he's a bust, when that's not his role. He doesn't have to be the alpha dog as long as Karl-Anthony Towns is here...as long as Jimmy Butler is here. Not meeting those expectations doesn't mean he's a bust. It just means he's not the top option.

[KGdaBom]

I'd put Kyrie in that 4-7 tier. Westbrook, Curry, Cp3 are comfortably better right now. After that he's bunched with Wall, Lillard, Lowry for me.

He's better than Thomas or Conley, IMO. Basically a bigger and better version of IT, and while Conley is a much better defender, he's a worse scorer by far and not much of a different playmaker.

OMG placing Kyrie on the same level as Wall????????????
In what universe would that ever happen.

I certainly don't disagree with moss.

He's getting judged negatively because his role changed. When Kevin Love went from a 26/13 player to a 16/10 player in one season, was it because he got dramatically worse? No. His role changed. He's no longer the top option on his team so he shouldn't be judged as if he's the top option.

That being said, the same unfair criticisms are being handed out to Wiggins by other posters. Some are expecting him to be the alpha dog on this team or he's a bust, when that's not his role. He doesn't have to be the alpha dog as long as Karl-Anthony Towns is here...as long as Jimmy Butler is here. Not meeting those expectations doesn't mean he's a bust. It just means he's not the top option.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to me placing Irving on the same level as a double digit assisting, rebounding, ball stealing, shot blocking, defending player like John Wall makes absolutely no sense at all. Certainly Kyrie is the better shooter, but that doesn't come close to making up for Wall being better in absolutely every other way. If you think Kyrie is held back because he has LeBron on his team that is just not based on the facts. Irving has the ball for more time than LeBron IIRC or very close and has a higher usage rate than Wall.

[shrink]

Kyrie is a 25 year old All Star on a good contract, but I think all these Irving trades are radically over-valueing the eventual return. When a team trades a star, they usually get 75 cents on the dollar, but Kyrie's return could be much lower.

Here are my Top Ten Reasons Why he may not even bring 75%

1. Lately win-now star returns have been even lower than 75 cents. The Warriors dominance has led to much smaller returns for Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Nerlen Noels, and Boogie Cousins.

2. Kyrie demanded a trade. This always lowers value.

3. Kyrie named four teams he wants to get traded to. If you are one of the other 25, you are probably only getting him for two years before he leaves.

4. Kyrie was not happy on a championship level team. This must make GM's worried about a big offer, because he might become unhappy on yours.

5. Kyrie is a great scorer, but he is also a disinterested defender, doesn't make his teammates better, and an injury history.

6. The PG market is extremely crowded right now.

7. He waited to announce this after teams have used most of their assets up, and made roster decisions.

8. CLE is constrained to make a deal now, since they don't want Kyrie making LeBron and his teammates uncomfortable on the first day of camp. Losing LeBron for nothing next year is more important than a smaller return for Kyrie.

9. CLE is also constrained because their Dan Gilbert is far into the repeater tax. They won't accept a package that adds a lot of salary.

10. CLE has an inexperienced new GM in Koby Altman. Worse, since Kyrie named four teams he wants to be traded to, Cavs teammates and free agents will watch Altman to see if he is a GM who looks out for his players' careers.

[Neeva]

I think your fourth point would be different if kyrie was on the Warriors or Spurs.

Kyrie can indicate to teams like the Suns and Nuggets that he will NOT resign with them making them think twice about trading for him.
Kyrie does very well with endorsment money (way better than Wiggins) and he is more likely than Wiggins to take a team friendly contract to keep a team together especially with Butler IMO.

[Takingbaconback]

I don't see how Irving is more likely to take a team friendly contract than Wiggins. He wants to move because he wants to be the guy with his own team or whatnot. If you were a GM, there would be huge doubt whether he's going to stay after 2 years, let alone take a pay cut. It's smart of him, but he's shown that he's going to do whatever it takes to fulfill his plans and put himself before the franchise. And he's not worried about the drama, as long as the ends justify the means.

[Jingles2]

The only way I trade Wiggins for Irving is if we can unload Teague too (Can't until Dec) and get Love back. Irving and Love for Teague, Wiggins, and Dieng. Maybe a draft pick or another small piece would have to be included. I doubt Cleveland would go for that, but that's what I would need to trade Wiggins.

Irving, Butler, Love and Towns would make us immediate contenders in the west.

[Oriole8159]

I'd put Kyrie in that 4-7 tier. Westbrook, Curry, Cp3 are comfortably better right now. After that he's bunched with Wall, Lillard, Lowry for me.

He's better than Thomas or Conley, IMO. Basically a bigger and better version of IT, and while Conley is a much better defender, he's a worse scorer by far and not much of a different playmaker.

OMG placing Kyrie on the same level as Wall????????????
In what universe would that ever happen.

I certainly don't disagree with moss.

He's getting judged negatively because his role changed. When Kevin Love went from a 26/13 player to a 16/10 player in one season, was it because he got dramatically worse? No. His role changed. He's no longer the top option on his team so he shouldn't be judged as if he's the top option.

That being said, the same unfair criticisms are being handed out to Wiggins by other posters. Some are expecting him to be the alpha dog on this team or he's a bust, when that's not his role. He doesn't have to be the alpha dog as long as Karl-Anthony Towns is here...as long as Jimmy Butler is here. Not meeting those expectations doesn't mean he's a bust. It just means he's not the top option.

I disagree with this because, if you want to give Wiggins a pass for accepting a 3rd option role, then he needs to perform the tasks that a traditional 3rd option does, which he hasn't mastered yet.

You can take the scoring responsibility off of his shoulders if he accepts taking on a larger lockdown defender role, becoming a larger 3 pt shooting specialist, doing more of the "dirty work," etc. See Klay Thompson this year; he sacrificed individual scoring but was still a big defensive presence, and deadly behind the arc with all the open looks that he got by playing off of KD/Steph.
Or Bosh in Miami.

a 3rd option needs to compliment the existing stars, even if he's considered a lesser individual player than others in the league. Wiggins, at this point of his development, does not compliment Towns and Butler. I still wouldn't trade him for Irving, but if he's going to be our #3 of the future than he needs to adjust his game to fit our team better.

[shrink]

The bottom line on Wiggins is this:

He is already a good player, and he is young.

If you don't think he will get any better, then he simply has "decent starter" value.

If you believe he will improve, his value is completely dependent on how far up the scale you think he will go, and his ceiling is one of the top players in the league, and his trade value is immeasurable.

Nobody knows if he is going to reach that level. I don't blame people that don't think he will get better, when they use his current stats. Personally, I think he will get much better with his surreal tools.

But in the meantime, neither of us can point to any evidence to prove we are right about our projections.

[AirP.]

The bottom line on Wiggins is this:

He is already a good player, and he is young.

If you don't think he will get any better, then he simply has "decent starter" value.

If you believe he will improve, his value is completely dependent on how far up the scale you think he will go, and his ceiling is one of the top players in the league, and his trade value is immeasurable.

Nobody knows if he is going to reach that level. I don't blame people that don't think he will get better, when they use his current stats. Personally, I think he will get much better with his surreal tools.

But in the meantime, neither of us can point to any evidence to prove we are right about our projections.

It's a huge gamble on a team capped out especially with...

Read on Twitter

If he doesn't get much better, that's not a good contract to move forward with and if this is how he feels and Thibs feels the same, why isn't the contract already done? Just recently Teague's was done quite quickly.

BTW... at this point in his career he should get a max because he does have potential, I get that. I just don't know if Minnesota is in a position to take that bet, because if they're wrong that'll be a large obstacle to get over.

[SO_MONEY]

The bottom line on Wiggins is this:

He is already a good player, and he is young.

If you don't think he will get any better, then he simply has "decent starter" value.

If you believe he will improve, his value is completely dependent on how far up the scale you think he will go, and his ceiling is one of the top players in the league, and his trade value is immeasurable.

Nobody knows if he is going to reach that level. I don't blame people that don't think he will get better, when they use his current stats. Personally, I think he will get much better with his surreal tools.

But in the meantime, neither of us can point to any evidence to prove we are right about our projections.

It's a huge gamble on a team capped out especially with...

Read on Twitter

If he doesn't get much better, that's not a good contract to move forward with and if this is how he feels and Thibs feels the same, why isn't the contract already done? Just recently Teague's was done quite quickly.

BTW... at this point in his career he should get a max because he does have potential, I get that. I just don't know if Minnesota is in a position to take that bet, because if they're wrong that'll be a large obstacle to get over.

I am not sure why people make a big deal about the MAX for someone coming off a rookie contract. It is not as prohibitive as a guy signing a MAX later in his career. A young player getting a rookie MAX "designated player" no big thing. They could be under-scale even.

[AirP.]

I am not sure why people make a big deal about the MAX for someone coming off a rookie contract. It is not as prohibitive as a guy signing a MAX later in his career. A young player getting a rookie MAX "designated player" no big thing. They could be under-scale even.

Normally it's no big thing but the situation is usually different, normally a team doing that isn't near/over the cap nor had 2 other players that will get the max soon. It's just the situation that makes this different for Minnesota, most teams wouldn't think twice about maxing him out, but we've now heard that the FO and Wiggins' are discussing the contract, what's to discuss if he's taking nothing but the max, all Thibs/FO has to do is offer it to him which it doesn't sound like they have at this time.

[Loyal[]Wolf]

Wiggins deserves maximum especially when looking at all these borderline players that are getting crazy deals. I know Wolves have to watch salary when they have to resign Towns and Butler, but you don't want to piss off Wiggins.

[shrink]

I agree any max, or near max, deal is a risk. Players get injured or fail to develop, and nba contracts are all fully guaranteed

However, I will also say that the majority of NBA max deals are good to great contracts. This set of players determines the fates of franchises and championships. The reason we have max deal contracts in the first place is because owners couldn't adequately compensate the true stars of the nba.

[Nidsmy]

Just pay wiggins the 5 yr. max already. What are we waiting for?

[Swish4]

Trading Wiggins for Irving seems absurd to me for the Wolves. They just signed Teague, who is perfect in the 4th option role. Great wings like Wiggins and Butler are so hard to get, and we have 2 of them, with little depth behind them. We put tgether a great starting 5, let's not screw that up.

[delux55]

Agree with swish. Wiggins has his flaws. With Butler on board he won't be defending the opposing teams best player anymore which will free him up to improve on other areas of his game. Being 20 and 21 and being asked to defend the other teams elite offensive player is a tough task for anyone. Esp a player of his age and growing into his body. Wouldn't be suprised to see him way more efficient on offense as well as he won't have to carry the weight of a number 1 or 2 scoring option night in and night out.
Give him his max and this roll. Way more risky.movng him or let ing him walk than maxing him out.

[Reddy83]

I've oscillated a bit on this trade because Kyrie is an amazing talent. If he sacrificed some of his offensive capability and played more like a Mike Conley moving the ball, he could be the best PG in the game. He's that good, even with his defensive holes. Side note, when he does try on defense, he has made some really nice plays. You see him get nice blocks, unfortunately a lot of them are from behind as he's been beat already.

Trade depth doesn't work for us now, Teague being here. But hypothetically, if Wiggins for Kyrie was a straight up trade, it's actually a tough call. I still don't do it.

I realize Kyrie is a better player today. Look back at when Kyrie was 22 years old before Lebron got there. The criticisms would be very similar to what Wiggy has in the present. Great offensive player, doesn't focus enough on other facets of the game, hasn't had team success. Yet now Kyrie is on a pedestal outside of the negativity of asking for a trade.

A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush, some folks would argue taking an established talent at a position that meshes with your other stars is a good idea. In this instance, we have an average PG already in Teague who does fit the team. We have two great wings, one of them who can tutor the other and potentially help him become an all star. We have better depth than last year:

Kat/Dieng/Patton/Aldrich
Gibson/Bjellica
Butler/Vet (?)
Wiggins/Crawford
Teague/Jones

We're in a great position to start next year. I'd definitely make some phone calls and express interest, but state clearly that Wiggins is off the table. That likely means Kyrie is too, but we give up too much otherwise. Having Wiggins and Butler on the wing is going to be amazing. We have a real chance to make some noise in the playoffs with this squad--can't wait for the season to start!

[Crazy-Canuck]

Read on Twitter

I think Wiggins + dieng + okc pick is what they want from us.

I think jones + dieng + 2 future firsts is what we offered ( if that even works)

[Ethomasp31]

Read on Twitter

I think Wiggins + dieng + okc pick is what they want from us.

I think jones + dieng + 2 future firsts is what we offered ( if that even works)

Well that trade works...but I think we offered more than that. I think we probably also offered to take back any contract they wanted to get rid of and it wouldn't surprise me if we offered another first rounder also. I think all available assets not names KAT, Butler and Wiggins were available to get him.