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Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving?

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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#821 » by SlovenianDragon » Tue Aug 1, 2017 12:30 pm

DRK wrote:Bledsoe is a free agent soon, who we will have to pay big money to keep. Wouldnt that affect our timeline more than trading for Kyrie?

Dont forget Tj is only 2.5 years younger than Irving as well.. So apart from trading a Miami pick (or two), does adding Kyrie really "destroy" our youth movement?


Both Bledsoe and Irving are free agents soon... There is no point to a trade for Irving imo.

In theory you are just giving up assets to get a guy in the same situation.

Pointless.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#822 » by DRK » Tue Aug 1, 2017 12:34 pm

SlovenianDragon wrote:
DRK wrote:Bledsoe is a free agent soon, who we will have to pay big money to keep. Wouldnt that affect our timeline more than trading for Kyrie?

Dont forget Tj is only 2.5 years younger than Irving as well.. So apart from trading a Miami pick (or two), does adding Kyrie really "destroy" our youth movement?


Both Bledsoe and Irving are free agents soon... There is no point to a trade for Irving imo.

In theory you are just giving up assets to get a guy in the same situation.

Pointless.


Would you rather pay Irving or Bledsoe to be our point guard of the future?
Youre assuming that Irving would want to leave in free agency if he comes here... which we dont want to happen and which I dont believe will happen.
However, Im predicting that Bledsoe DOES leave in FA, because we chose to let him go.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#823 » by SlovenianDragon » Tue Aug 1, 2017 12:45 pm

DRK wrote:
SlovenianDragon wrote:
DRK wrote:Bledsoe is a free agent soon, who we will have to pay big money to keep. Wouldnt that affect our timeline more than trading for Kyrie?

Dont forget Tj is only 2.5 years younger than Irving as well.. So apart from trading a Miami pick (or two), does adding Kyrie really "destroy" our youth movement?


Both Bledsoe and Irving are free agents soon... There is no point to a trade for Irving imo.

In theory you are just giving up assets to get a guy in the same situation.

Pointless.


Would you rather pay Irving or Bledsoe to be our point guard of the future?
Youre assuming that Irving would want to leave in free agency if he comes here... which we dont want to happen and which I dont believe will happen.
However, Im predicting that Bledsoe DOES leave in FA, because we chose to let him go.


Neither. We are a young team battling in the west...

We will find a PG in the future either through FA or a trade.

Theres no Urgency to do it now. We can wait Bledsoes contract out if we have to.

Develop our young core. TBH we don't really know what or who they are yet...Our team is so young.

We start just making bad trades now we could be in a bad spot for awhile.

To me I just care about where we are a few years from now because I love the suns. I don't want to just get dismantled and have to rebuild again.

Its not just Irving or Bledsoe. Theres more....Much, much, more.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#824 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Aug 1, 2017 1:09 pm

SlovenianDragon wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:You say it like you know Irving will destroy this grand plan we have while not acknowledging that this grand plan really has no guarantees it'll pan out. Irving is a lot more proven, even at 25 than every single young player on our roster so how could you say we won't be better with him? As far as we know, Jackson, Chriss, Bender could end up being just average rotation players. Even Booker might just be a very talented scorer who does little else.

How do you know we won't still be a trash team with role players like Chriss and Jackson looking for the 2021 equivalent of $15m a yr? The fact is this, I don't know, you don't know, nobody really knows until our young guys prove otherwise that they are anything more than just an NBA player.

There's no reason why we shouldn't try and bring in an elite talent while still having the young prospect to develop.


I look at as the complete opposite while also agreeing with you....

Who knows what are young players will be...So how about we wait til we have a finger on them?

I feel like there is no reason to bring in a elite talent until we are ready to compete.

And to gather said talent you have to trade some of the young core.

So no I don't want Irving at all.

And what if we never get to the stage where we're "ready to compete"? You say it's a waste of time if Irving walks. You could say the same thing if in 3-4 years when we should be ready to compete and we're not ready. We're seeing that with Len now. What if down the road we're in the same situation with Chriss and Bender as we are now with Len? Right now, the only player close to a sure thing is Booker and even he has a ton of question marks around his efficiency, defense and ability to lead a team. There's no reason not to bring in a guy like Irving, who fits the core, who brings elite offense and championship experience. This team can learn a lot from that sort of experience and leadership. And ultimately, who are you giving up? Chriss? Maybe Warren? Bledsoe? At the very least, one of those three guys likely won't be with us in two season.

I just don't buy this approach of rebuilding exclusively through the draft. There's talent in every draft but there's a ton of duds too. You're absolutely taking a risk by giving up assets for Kyrie but let's not pretend like there's no risk in hoping and relying on our young players to turn into half the star Kyrie is.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#825 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Aug 1, 2017 1:22 pm

SlovenianDragon wrote:
DRK wrote:
SlovenianDragon wrote:
Both Bledsoe and Irving are free agents soon... There is no point to a trade for Irving imo.

In theory you are just giving up assets to get a guy in the same situation.

Pointless.


Would you rather pay Irving or Bledsoe to be our point guard of the future?
Youre assuming that Irving would want to leave in free agency if he comes here... which we dont want to happen and which I dont believe will happen.
However, Im predicting that Bledsoe DOES leave in FA, because we chose to let him go.


Neither. We are a young team battling in the west...

We will find a PG in the future either through FA or a trade.

Theres no Urgency to do it now. We can wait Bledsoes contract out if we have to.

Develop our young core. TBH we don't really know what or who they are yet...Our team is so young.

We start just making bad trades now we could be in a bad spot for awhile.

To me I just care about where we are a few years from now because I love the suns. I don't want to just get dismantled and have to rebuild again.

Its not just Irving or Bledsoe. Theres more....Much, much, more.

I care as much as you about where we are a few years from now. But I don't see it as dismantling the team. I see it as trading some pieces which are going to be very costly to retain in 2 years anyway for an elite talent that 100% fits our core. Sure there's a chance he could walk in 2yrs but the players we trade for him, are probably going to go anyway in 2yrs. Ultimately, we lose Chriss and a draft pick and that's a price I'm willing to pay, especially when we still have Booker, Bender, Jackson, Ulis and whoever else we draft with our remaining picks should the worse come to worst and Kyrie walks.

Let's face it, as much as I like our young guys, statistically most of them won't ever be more than rotation players, as much as I wish they could be more.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#826 » by Waylay13 » Tue Aug 1, 2017 1:43 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:And what if we never get to the stage where we're "ready to compete"? You say it's a waste of time if Irving walks. You could say the same thing if in 3-4 years when we should be ready to compete and we're not ready. We're seeing that with Len now. What if down the road we're in the same situation with Chriss and Bender as we are now with Len? Right now, the only player close to a sure thing is Booker and even he has a ton of question marks around his efficiency, defense and ability to lead a team. There's no reason not to bring in a guy like Irving, who fits the core, who brings elite offense and championship experience. This team can learn a lot from that sort of experience and leadership. And ultimately, who are you giving up? Chriss? Maybe Warren? Bledsoe? At the very least, one of those three guys likely won't be with us in two season.


To me there every reason not to want Kyrie starting off with the fact that he is a selfish player in a position that demands unselfishness. Other teams overcome this by having other players become the primary distributor (i.e. Lebron James or Draymond Green) but Kyrie wants the ball in his hands at all time. He is a point guard who job is to create for others and so far he would be rated poor for that fact alone. To top this off the Suns real weakness are defense and passing both areas that that Kyrie wont help in. As a matter of fact his presence alone will likely take rebounding into a critical area due to the drop in rebounding from Bledsoe to Kyrie. The only thing that Kyrie brings to the table is that he is closer in age to our core.

I am frankly tied of these combo guards who dont pass thinking that they have any right to be a point guard. Allen Iverson is one of the worst things that has ever happened to the NBA and you are seeing the same type of player in Kyrie.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#827 » by dremill24 » Tue Aug 1, 2017 1:47 pm

SlovenianDragon wrote:Until you can compete whats the point of trading for a superstar?

As stacked as the west is we wont even get close to the playoffs with


Besides that if he leaves in two years we lost assets for nothing....We will just be in the same boat.

Although a boat with a few holes in it.

We have the youngest team in the league and like many have said we don't know what they are worth or who they are!

Exactly....LETS FIND OUT!


This boggles my mind. What's the point of adding a young player who's actually been able to make an impact in the NBA?

The cost in a trade, his contract situation, his fit with Booker...all perfectly reasonable concerns.

This just screams addiction to the unknown of undeveloped prospects.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#828 » by JMac1 » Tue Aug 1, 2017 1:56 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:I'd do Jackson for Irving straight up. If nothing else is involved


I said no.

1. Jackson is 20
2. Jackson is better defensively
3. Jackson should be better all around
4. Jackson fits with the Timeline i.e. Booker
5. Jackson is ours for 7 years

Just to name a few....plus he is a Sun...no other teams doo doo comes with him.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#829 » by Waylay13 » Tue Aug 1, 2017 1:59 pm

dremill24 wrote:This boggles my mind. What's the point of adding a young player who's actually been able to make an impact in the NBA?

The cost in a trade, his contract situation, his fit with Booker...all perfectly reasonable concerns.

This just screams addiction to the unknown of undeveloped prospects.


I think it is safe to ask has he really made an impact in the NBA; if Kyrie wasnt on a team Lebron (which is what this trade is all about being he wants to the MAN) would he have done anything outside of rookie of the year? John Paxton and Steve Kerr made names for themselves by winning games when it counted but are you going to build your team around them? No.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#830 » by darealjuice » Tue Aug 1, 2017 2:06 pm

Kyrie was an All Star twice before LeBron came back to Cleveland lol... I get LeBron was the major part of him winning a ring already, but let's not pretend Kyrie is Steve Kerr...
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#831 » by DRK » Tue Aug 1, 2017 2:06 pm

DRK wrote:
SlovenianDragon wrote:
Both Bledsoe and Irving are free agents soon... There is no point to a trade for Irving imo.

In theory you are just giving up assets to get a guy in the same situation.

Pointless.


Would you rather pay Irving or Bledsoe to be our point guard of the future?
Youre assuming that Irving would want to leave in free agency if he comes here... which we dont want to happen and which I dont believe will happen.
However, Im predicting that Bledsoe DOES leave in FA, because we chose to let him go.


SlovenianDragon wrote:Neither. We are a young team battling in the west...

Trading a 28 Year old Bledsoe and a 23 year old Warren for a 25 year old Irving is not going to affect our youth

SlovenianDragon wrote:We will find a PG in the future either through FA or a trade.

Whether we trade for a superstar PG now, or later, we will still be giving up assets. As for free agency, your main concern is not resigning Kyrie. With that logic would any FA also want to sign here? And as for the draft, we all know its a total crapshoot, isnt that right, Isiah Thomas, and Brandon Knight?

SlovenianDragon wrote:Theres no Urgency to do it now. We can wait Bledsoes contract out if we have to.

And lose him for nothing in FA, instead of using his trade value to assist in a trade for a superstar?

SlovenianDragon wrote:Develop our young core. TBH we don't really know what or who they are yet...Our team is so young.

Playing devils advocate, who knows if this group of prospects do actually reach their potential? What if Bender never develops? Chriss never develops? Miami 1st turns into a late lotto pick? Are we really going to put our faith in unproven prospects over a sure-fire superstar in Kyrie Irving who is still only 25?

SlovenianDragon wrote:We start just making bad trades now we could be in a bad spot for awhile.

While that is true, I could say that exact opposite. Not making good trades now could put us in a bad spot. We were 2nd last in the West last year, lets not pretend that we are in a good position right now anyway

SlovenianDragon wrote:To me I just care about where we are a few years from now because I love the suns. I don't want to just get dismantled and have to rebuild again.

Lets look at the assets we have in terms of youth:
Devin Booker
Marquese Chriss
Dragan Bender
2018 1st
TJ Warren
Tyler Ulis
2018 Miami 1st
2021 Miami 1st
Josh Jackson

Take away TJ, Bled and a Miami 1st and add Kyrie Irving, and does that list look "dismantled?"

SlovenianDragon wrote:Its not just Irving or Bledsoe. Theres more....Much, much, more.

Like?
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#832 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Aug 1, 2017 2:08 pm

Waylay13 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:And what if we never get to the stage where we're "ready to compete"? You say it's a waste of time if Irving walks. You could say the same thing if in 3-4 years when we should be ready to compete and we're not ready. We're seeing that with Len now. What if down the road we're in the same situation with Chriss and Bender as we are now with Len? Right now, the only player close to a sure thing is Booker and even he has a ton of question marks around his efficiency, defense and ability to lead a team. There's no reason not to bring in a guy like Irving, who fits the core, who brings elite offense and championship experience. This team can learn a lot from that sort of experience and leadership. And ultimately, who are you giving up? Chriss? Maybe Warren? Bledsoe? At the very least, one of those three guys likely won't be with us in two season.


To me there every reason not to want Kyrie starting off with the fact that he is a selfish player in a position that demands unselfishness. Other teams overcome this by having other players become the primary distributor (i.e. Lebron James or Draymond Green) but Kyrie wants the ball in his hands at all time. He is a point guard who job is to create for others and so far he would be rated poor for that fact alone. To top this off the Suns real weakness are defense and passing both areas that that Kyrie wont help in. As a matter of fact his presence alone will likely take rebounding into a critical area due to the drop in rebounding from Bledsoe to Kyrie. The only thing that Kyrie brings to the table is that he is closer in age to our core.

I am frankly tied of these combo guards who dont pass thinking that they have any right to be a point guard. Allen Iverson is one of the worst things that has ever happened to the NBA and you are seeing the same type of player in Kyrie.

I don't disagree with you about having nostalgia of the old pass first PG's of the past. I wish we still have a Nash on our team. But times have changed. The days where PG's are the ones primarily handling the ball are a thing of the past. As you mentioned, guys like Draymond, Kawhi, Lebron, Giannis are the PG's of today even though they aren't the traditional PG's. In the same vein, Kyrie being a PG, doesn't mean his only job is to create for others .

And I don't buy that Kyrie is an unchangeable and resolutely selfish player who only wants to dominate the ball and nothing else. Would you be opposed if James Harden became the primary ball handler? Kyrie's career AST% is right in line with Harden's and it wasn't until Harden 3rd season being the man in Houston did he record a better AST% than Kyrie's career %. Nobody expected Harden to be an elite passer on the same level as CP3, until this last season. Let's not even get into Harden's poor defense.

Let's look at another comparison. Stephen Curry, an MVP level player wasn't an elite passer until he turned 25; 2 seasons after he became the man in GS and Thompson had a season under his belt. Kyrie in his rookie season, had a better AST% than Curry did until Curry became an all-star at 25.

Both of these elite players had be given time to be the man to become the MVP level players they are today.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#833 » by Fo-Real » Tue Aug 1, 2017 2:18 pm

Kyrie is a ball hog.... score first.... shelfish..... chucker... AKA BONIFIED ALPHA MALE SUPERSTAR, EXACTLY WHAT WE HAVE BEEN VYING FOR! For all these people knocking these qualities, they you would hate guys like Steph Curry, Russ Westbrook, Durant, Wall, Bron, ruining our team with their elitist pompous super star mentality. This is what makes him better than the others, he will take big shots, little shots, side shots, WHATEVER, KOBE IS HALL OF FAMER RIGHT, how dare he ruin those Laker teams. THAT SAID, DON'T GIVE UP JACKSON!!!!!!
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#834 » by Waylay13 » Tue Aug 1, 2017 2:25 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:I don't disagree with you about having nostalgia of the old pass first PG's of the past. I wish we still have a Nash on our team. But times have changed. The days where PG's are the ones primarily handling the ball are a thing of the past. As you mentioned, guys like Draymond, Kawhi, Lebron, Giannis are the PG's of today even though they aren't the traditional PG's. In the same vein, Kyrie being a PG, doesn't mean his only job is to create for others .

And I don't buy that Kyrie is an unchangeable and resolutely selfish player who only wants to dominate the ball and nothing else. Would you be opposed if James Harden became the primary ball handler? Kyrie's career AST% is right in line with Harden's and it wasn't until Harden 3rd season being the man in Houston did he record a better AST% than Kyrie's career %. Nobody expected Harden to be an elite passer on the same level as CP3, until this last season. Let's not even get into Harden's poor defense.

Let's look at another comparison. Stephen Curry, an MVP level player wasn't an elite passer until he turned 25; 2 seasons after he became the man in GS and Thompson had a season under his belt. Kyrie in his rookie season, had a better AST% than Curry did until Curry became an all-star at 25.

Both of these elite players had be given time to be the man to become the MVP level players they are today.


The problem is that the Suns dont have Draymond, Kawhi, Lebron or Giannis if they did I would be more understanding of bring Kyrie in. Bender and Jackson might have the ability in the future to have the offense run through them but right now they are not there. To top this off Kyrie has been very clear that he doesnt want to play second to other player which is what would be required to the offense run through a player like Draymond, Kawhi, Lebron or Giannis.

As far as Harden goes up till last year he has never been the point guard on a team but even before that he has show that he was a willing passer going all the way back to college. So you want to compare a shooting guard vs. point guard even looking historically Harden is a better passer.

Curry wasnt a elite passer early in his career (remember this was under Doc Rivers) and when Kerr came in they changed the offense around a made Draymond the distributor and as a team the Warriors are one of the most unselfish team in the NBA and the suns are one of the worst passing teams in the NBA.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#835 » by Sunsss » Tue Aug 1, 2017 2:32 pm

I would not give up more than Bledsoe + 2018 Miami pick and do not care how homer that sounds.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#836 » by Preacherpj » Tue Aug 1, 2017 2:55 pm

1) Irving fits our timeline, he doesn't hurt our youth.
2) Good players want to play with good players, adding Kyrie to the team gives us a chance to land the next player. Its like dominoes.
3) Kyrie is really really good, people are obsessing over what he can't do in this thread, but he's a killer on offense and he's shown in the post-season he can carry a team.

This is why we have all these assets so we can make a move for a young star and embed him into our core going forward, sure he might not re-sign, but Chriss may never develop either. There's risk in trading for Kyrie, but there's also risk in keeping young assets that may or may not develop.

We all agree Bled doesn't fit our timeline right? Well..... lets trade him for a PG that might.

I'd do Bledsoe, Chriss or Bender, Miami 18 in a heartbeat.
I'd do Bled, Chriss or Bender, Miami 18, Phoenix 19 (protected ~5) as well.

I'd also be willing to throw in Reed to either deal or Ulis if it came down to it.

Its really hard to get stars in this league, especially in Phoenix, I'm not going to let Chriss/mid-lotto picks/Davon Reed trip that up.

I do draw the line at Josh Jackson. He needs to stay.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#837 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Tue Aug 1, 2017 3:13 pm

I don't want Kyrie and want to continue with #thetimeline. In that vein, the T&T board has basically all but agreed to Bled & Melo to CLE, Ntilikina to PHX, and Kyrie to NYK. That is the route I prefer to go. Keep both of next year's picks, all of the young guys, start Ulis/Booker/Jackson/Warren/Chandler or Len. I think that is the best we can do.

In other words, I'm totally on board with the bwgood plan. Choo choo.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#838 » by Preacherpj » Tue Aug 1, 2017 3:18 pm

cosmofizzo wrote:I don't want Kyrie and want to continue with #thetimeline. In that vein, the T&T board has basically all but agreed to Bled & Melo to CLE, Ntilikina to PHX, and Kyrie to NYK. That is the route I prefer to go. Keep both of next year's picks, all of the young guys, start Ulis/Booker/Jackson/Warren/Chandler or Len. I think that is the best we can do.


1 - Melo isn't going to Cleveland I think he's come out again and said "Houston or nobody'.
2 - We already have so many rookies, we don't need two more picks next year and another rookie in Ntilikina.
3 - Kyrie fits our #timeline.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#839 » by Waylay13 » Tue Aug 1, 2017 4:21 pm

Preacherpj wrote:
cosmofizzo wrote:I don't want Kyrie and want to continue with #thetimeline. In that vein, the T&T board has basically all but agreed to Bled & Melo to CLE, Ntilikina to PHX, and Kyrie to NYK. That is the route I prefer to go. Keep both of next year's picks, all of the young guys, start Ulis/Booker/Jackson/Warren/Chandler or Len. I think that is the best we can do.


1 - Melo isn't going to Cleveland I think he's come out again and said "Houston or nobody'.
2 - We already have so many rookies, we don't need two more picks next year and another rookie in Ntilikina.
3 - Kyrie fits our #timeline.


You know one of the more amazing things about rookies? After a season they are no longer rookies. So right now we have Jackson, Reed and Peters (who we havent signed). Now since having rookie and players on their rookie salary ensure that we are keeping good cost control you might rethink your statement before we give away a 1st over all pick.
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Re: Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving? 

Post#840 » by Qwigglez » Tue Aug 1, 2017 4:30 pm

Melo only wants to go to the Rockets.
https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/247080/Carmelo-Anthony-Not-Interested-In-Trade-To-Cavaliers

So I don't see a three team trade working out with them anymore. Is there any other team that we have to worry about for Irving? The list is dwindling and his value is falling as well. What was once Bledsoe/Jackson for Irving turned into Bledsoe/Warren (or Chriss) Miami 2018 1st for Irving and may just turn into Bledsoe/Jones Jr/ 2018 Miami 1st for Irving/Shumpert/Frye. This sheds the Cavs a ton of salary tax and Jones Jr just saves face for their organization to say they wanted a veteran to pair with Lebron and a young guy with a pick.

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