Kyrie Trade Discussion Continued

[Birdie]

A Suns and Cavs deal would be very nice. Don't see what Cavs could really get in the short term that would trouble Celtics more than Kyrie has really. Ainge Would have took a little step closer to the Cavs this offseason.

Umm, my friend, while I agree Kyrie has given BOS trouble in the past, removing Kyrie still doesn't change the fact they still haven't solved how to stop LBJ or KLove or TT for that matter. No denying, Gordon is nice but it came at the expense of Bradley and your other "vet" role players. I find it mildly amusing that just because Gordon is on board, that a roster comprised of mostly rooks or 2nd years at the expense of vet players is somehow made BOS better than last year? I don't quite get this logic.

I think BOS homies gonna be in for a rude awakening for some growing pains the 1st 3 months of the season.

[NetsDynasty2012]

A Suns and Cavs deal would be very nice. Don't see what Cavs could really get in the short term that would trouble Celtics more than Kyrie has really. Ainge Would have took a little step closer to the Cavs this offseason.

Umm, my friend, while I agree Kyrie has given BOS trouble in the past, removing Kyrie still doesn't change the fact they still haven't solved how to stop LBJ or KLove or TT for that matter. No denying, Gordon is nice but it came at the expense of Bradley and your other "vet" role players. I find it mildly amusing that just because Gordon is on board, that a roster comprised of mostly rooks or 2nd years at the expense of vet players is somehow made BOS better than last year? I don't quite get this logic.

I think BOS homies gonna be in for a rude awakening for some growing pains the 1st 3 months of the season.

Celtics lost Amir, Bradley, Olynyk, Jerebko as far as vets and replaced them with Hayward, Morris, Baynes, and Larkin.

Hayward >> Bradley

Morris > Olynyk

Baynes > Amir

Larkin and Jerebko whatever.

[Kempistry2]

Jordan also acted like one of the guys off the court, I got the impression he liked hanging out with his teammates and would shoot the **** with them.

This is so false, it's not even funny. Read "The Jordan Rules" by Sam Smith if you want to know how Jordan actually treated his teammates.

I'm not saying Jordan wasn't a dick, just that he fraternized with his teammates. I also think he took responsibility for losing.

[London2Boston]

A Suns and Cavs deal would be very nice. Don't see what Cavs could really get in the short term that would trouble Celtics more than Kyrie has really. Ainge Would have took a little step closer to the Cavs this offseason.

Umm, my friend, while I agree Kyrie has given BOS trouble in the past, removing Kyrie still doesn't change the fact they still haven't solved how to stop LBJ or KLove or TT for that matter. No denying, Gordon is nice but it came at the expense of Bradley and your other "vet" role players. I find it mildly amusing that just because Gordon is on board, that a roster comprised of mostly rooks or 2nd years at the expense of vet players is somehow made BOS better than last year? I don't quite get this logic.

I think BOS homies gonna be in for a rude awakening for some growing pains the 1st 3 months of the season.

Celtics lost Amir, Bradley, Olynyk, Jerebko as far as vets and replaced them with Hayward, Morris, Baynes, and Larkin.

Hayward >> Bradley

Morris > Olynyk

Baynes > Amir

Larkin and Jerebko whatever.

Seriously. People used to say Ainge and Boston fans were all overrating their own roleplayers on the team and now they have gone all we can hear us how we gutted our depth by replacing them.

Even if Ainge may have improved the squad just a tiny bit this offseason, then it still doesn't change the fact that Cavs will have got worse losing one of their all stars.

[phraoh]

Until Boston addresses their major weakness which is rebounding, and being able to guard Lebron and Kevin Love (they have addressed NONE of this in the off season), they will struggle in a series against not only Cleveland but Washington.

[MartinToVaught]

Jordan also acted like one of the guys off the court, I got the impression he liked hanging out with his teammates and would shoot the **** with them.

This is so false, it's not even funny. Read "The Jordan Rules" by Sam Smith if you want to know how Jordan actually treated his teammates.

I'm not saying Jordan wasn't a dick, just that he fraternized with his teammates. I also think he took responsibility for losing.

Jordan's reaction to losing was to blame his teammates and try to play GM, which is exactly what people are accusing LeBron of doing.

[NetsDynasty2012]

Until Boston addresses their major weakness which is rebounding, and being able to guard Lebron and Kevin Love (they have addressed NONE of this in the off season), they will struggle in a series against not only Cleveland but Washington.

Rebounding: Baynes, Zizic, Yabusele, Theis

Defending Love: Morris, Theis, Ojeleye

Bodies to throw at James: Morris, Crowder, Brown, Tatum, Ojeleye, Hayward

[Edrees]

Kyrie is an intellectual.....sometimes those dudes come off as odd.

Intellectual? I'm pretty certain, nobody who legitimately believes the earth is flat should be described as "intellectual", even for an nba player. I'm undecided if kyrie was trolling there though.

Like, uhhh, questioning what is positively known and verifiable is more likely to make me believe you're an idiot rather than an open free thinker or whatever.

It's always good to question things. Especially when you've made no observations yourself and all the "known" evidence comes from a second hand source.

Not saying I believe in flat earth theory. But it's very close minded to be so critical of someone because of their beliefs.

Well my belief is that we should be critical of someone for their beliefs when it comes to the earth being flat.

Do you also think it's wrong to be critical of my belief?

[Birdie]

Umm, my friend, while I agree Kyrie has given BOS trouble in the past, removing Kyrie still doesn't change the fact they still haven't solved how to stop LBJ or KLove or TT for that matter. No denying, Gordon is nice but it came at the expense of Bradley and your other "vet" role players. I find it mildly amusing that just because Gordon is on board, that a roster comprised of mostly rooks or 2nd years at the expense of vet players is somehow made BOS better than last year? I don't quite get this logic.

I think BOS homies gonna be in for a rude awakening for some growing pains the 1st 3 months of the season.

Celtics lost Amir, Bradley, Olynyk, Jerebko as far as vets and replaced them with Hayward, Morris, Baynes, and Larkin.

Hayward >> Bradley

Morris > Olynyk

Baynes > Amir

Larkin and Jerebko whatever.

Seriously. People used to Ainge and Boston fans were all overrating their own roleplayers on the team and now they have gone all we can hear us how we gutted our depth by replacing them.

Even if Ainge may have improved the squad just a tiny bit this offseason, then it still doesn't change the fact that Cavs will have got worse losing one of their all stars.

But that's the crux of the argument, what is the degree of the "improvement".

You're incorporating 3 new players into a new system (Hayward, Morris, Baynes), hoping for Brown's improvement in year 2 and then expecting a bunch of rooks in Zizic, Tatum, Yabusele, Thiel, Oyejie, Nadar to play meaningful championship contention minutes off the bench?

It's not that your previous pieces are being overrated or underrated, from an eye test, it was a core that made you guys successful. Producing or not, Zeller, Jerebko, Bradley, Amir, Green, etc., some had been there for 3 years or less and been apart of the battles of the past 3 years where ya'll were the #1 seed last year. I just don't put much stock into that being recreated when 10 out of 15 guys are new to the team. That's a pretty big turnover.

And in regards to matching up to CLE, your personnel is still piss poor at rebounding against us. That's the BIGGEST weakness of the past 3 years that you guys still haven't addressed. And KLove vs. Marcus Morris? Morris somewhat better offensively than Amir/Jerebko/Olynyk but still, Love eating Morris for dinner all day with that matchup. It's not real upgrade there.

And "if" we move Kyrie, most likely bringing back Bledsoe, it still doesn't close the gap between BOS/CLE. One could say, it could possibly make us better cuz Bledsoe actually has the tools to play defense as opposed to Kyrie's ole defense at times. And "if" we use the other PHO pieces to move for better fitting win-now pieces (i.e. Bradley, Wilson Chandler, Khris Middleton, etc.) That gap only widens...

[NetsDynasty2012]

Celtics lost Amir, Bradley, Olynyk, Jerebko as far as vets and replaced them with Hayward, Morris, Baynes, and Larkin.

Hayward >> Bradley

Morris > Olynyk

Baynes > Amir

Larkin and Jerebko whatever.

Seriously. People used to Ainge and Boston fans were all overrating their own roleplayers on the team and now they have gone all we can hear us how we gutted our depth by replacing them.

Even if Ainge may have improved the squad just a tiny bit this offseason, then it still doesn't change the fact that Cavs will have got worse losing one of their all stars.

But that's the crux of the argument, what is the degree of the "improvement".

You're incorporating 3 new players into a new system (Hayward, Morris, Baynes), hoping for Brown's improvement in year 2 and then expecting a bunch of rooks in Zizic, Tatum, Yabusele, Thiel, Oyejie, Nadar to play meaningful championship contention minutes off the bench?

It's not that your previous pieces are being overrated or underrated, from an eye test, it was a core that made you guys successful. Producing or not, Zeller, Jerebko, Bradley, Amir, Green, etc., some had been there for 3 years or less and been apart of the battles of the past 3 years where ya'll were the #1 seed last year. I just don't put much stock into that being recreated when 10 out of 15 guys are new to the team. That's a pretty big turnover.

And in regards to matching up to CLE, your personnel is still piss poor at rebounding against us. That's the BIGGEST weakness of the past 3 years that you guys still haven't addressed. And KLove vs. Marcus Morris? Morris somewhat better offensively than Amir/Jerebko/Olynyk but still, Love eating Morris for dinner all day with that matchup. It's not real upgrade there.

And "if" we move Kyrie, most likely bringing back Bledsoe, it still doesn't close the gap between BOS/CLE. One could say, it could possibly make us better cuz Bledsoe actually has the tools to play defense as opposed to Kyrie's ole defense at times. And "if" we use the other PHO pieces to move for better fitting win-now pieces (i.e. Bradley, Wilson Chandler, Khris Middleton, etc.) That gap only widens...

The Cavs will be incorporating Calderon, Rose, *Kyrie replacement*, and someone else most likely. Most of those guys won't be playing "meaningful championship" minutes in the playoffs, likely only Tatum if at all. Theis, Zizic, and Ojeleye might play some playoff minutes, but not a significant amount. And Theis isn't quite your typical rookie, he has years of pro experience.


The only real big change is Bradley gone, and to a lesser extent Amir, but he was clearly cooked last year. The other guys were spot rotation guys at best and completely inconsequential.


The Celtics added rebounders, and clearly will be better at rebounding than last year, so it has been addressed. Maybe not to the ideal level of some, but we are a better rebounding team now. Morris defends Love better than anyone on the Celtics last year, it's not about his offense.

You won't possibly be better off with Bledsoe than Kyrie at all, you're going from an elite three point shooter to a marginal one. No need to mention which is a better fit with James. So "if" you use your other pieces you get from Phoenix to add a *new* player it widens the gap, but because the Celtics added new players there will be chemistry issues. Makes sense...

[MGB8]

Back to Kyrie trades, Charlotte would seem to be a good destination. They need a foundation player - Kemba isn't quite that, and MKG has been hurt. Kyrie is a dukie.

On trade checker, Kyrie, JR (I know Cavs fans like him, but he is declining fast and a bad contract if/when Lebron leaves) and Osman (restriction through 8/17) work for Kemba, Batum, and Monk.

Batum is a bit younger than JR, better overall though bigger contract, but most importantly, strong Lebron-leaving insurance - a Kemba-Monk/Shumpert-Batum-Love-Thompson team would at least be competitive. And Kemba is good enough that the drop-off from Kyrie for this season won't be too big. Monk is the prospect.

Meanwhile, Charlotte gets of the poor treadmill team track and can try to build around Kyrie (and MKG if healthy).

[infinite11285]

Constantly bitching that your teammates suck is stupid.

I'm just saying that a good GM/teammate wouldn't alienate the second best player on the team. He may be a selfish idiot, but he's your selfish idiot and it's your job as leader to keep him onside.

If Lebron just played like a Duncan, this wouldn't happen. You never heard Duncan blaming Ginnobli or Parker. A leader takes the blame and spreads praise. Lebron does the opposite.

It seems you missed my question so I'll ask it again: Where are you getting the notion Kyrie was "constantly belittled" by LeBron, or anyone for that matter? What's your source LeBron alienated Kyrie in any way? How was Kyrie alienated? What was specifically said in regard to Kyrie? It appears your opinion is based on that foundation and I'm simply asking you to substantiate it. Frankly, everything else you said is moot, especially if the foundation of your point is ill-rooted.

d
There have been constant media reports that LeBron is unhappy with his teammates and Kyrie is one of his teammates. Lebron always acts like it's him and a bunch of guys. That tends to alienate teammates.

Ah, you're referencing the reports that LeBron said the Cavs as instructed are top heavy (LBJ, Love, and Irving) and require depth, which they do. That's a far cry from LeBron, as you stated, "constantly belittling" Kyrie specifically. You twisted the reports of LeBron wanting more roster/bench depth into a personal and direct attack on Irving in efforts to alienate him, which is far from the truth.

[mplsfonz23]

Jordan's reaction to losing was to blame his teammates and try to play GM, which is exactly what people are accusing LeBron of doing.

That is simply not true. Even after all these years secrets like that become known. I have watched MJ his entire career and not ONCE has he ever thrown a teammate under the bus. So find proof, or retract the statement.

[bwgood77]

Man I'm worried that Kyrie just turns you into a treadmill team and that giving up Jackson reduces your chances to get out of it. I think you should cement a clear young core then trade for an established player to fit alongsid it to make you a contender. Here, Kyrie might just make you good enough to where you can't get a top 7 pick and bad enough to where he might just walk away afterwards. It's actually a tough one imo.

Yes, a number of Suns fans feel this way.

[711takeover]

Celtics lost Amir, Bradley, Olynyk, Jerebko as far as vets and replaced them with Hayward, Morris, Baynes, and Larkin.

Hayward >> Bradley

Morris > Olynyk

Baynes > Amir

Larkin and Jerebko whatever.

Seriously. People used to Ainge and Boston fans were all overrating their own roleplayers on the team and now they have gone all we can hear us how we gutted our depth by replacing them.

Even if Ainge may have improved the squad just a tiny bit this offseason, then it still doesn't change the fact that Cavs will have got worse losing one of their all stars.

But that's the crux of the argument, what is the degree of the "improvement".

You're incorporating 3 new players into a new system (Hayward, Morris, Baynes), hoping for Brown's improvement in year 2 and then expecting a bunch of rooks in Zizic, Tatum, Yabusele, Thiel, Oyejie, Nadar to play meaningful championship contention minutes off the bench?

It's not that your previous pieces are being overrated or underrated, from an eye test, it was a core that made you guys successful. Producing or not, Zeller, Jerebko, Bradley, Amir, Green, etc., some had been there for 3 years or less and been apart of the battles of the past 3 years where ya'll were the #1 seed last year. I just don't put much stock into that being recreated when 10 out of 15 guys are new to the team. That's a pretty big turnover.

And in regards to matching up to CLE, your personnel is still piss poor at rebounding against us. That's the BIGGEST weakness of the past 3 years that you guys still haven't addressed. And KLove vs. Marcus Morris? Morris somewhat better offensively than Amir/Jerebko/Olynyk but still, Love eating Morris for dinner all day with that matchup. It's not real upgrade there.

And "if" we move Kyrie, most likely bringing back Bledsoe, it still doesn't close the gap between BOS/CLE. One could say, it could possibly make us better cuz Bledsoe actually has the tools to play defense as opposed to Kyrie's ole defense at times. And "if" we use the other PHO pieces to move for better fitting win-now pieces (i.e. Bradley, Wilson Chandler, Khris Middleton, etc.) That gap only widens...

First off Zeller and Jerekbo were bench warmers so thats irrelevant. You must be delusional if you think the additions of Hayward, Morris, and Baynes didn't improve their roster from last year. Hayward is light years ahead of Bradley on the offensive end and Morris is a 10x better defender and more versatile than Olynk. Celtics clearly got closer to the Cavs because of their added versatility on both ends. Love will in no way "eat Morris for dinner all day" lol you clearly have little basketball knowledge. Also, Bledsoe doesn't make you a better team - please stop this nonsense. Kyrie > Bledsoe.

The only players who will play "meaningful championship contention minutes off the bench" are Tatum and Zizic for like 8 MPG if that. You realize for the playoffs its like a 9 man rotation and the bench is: Morris, Smart/Brown, Tatum, and Baynes. That's a good bench.

[711takeover]

Jordan's reaction to losing was to blame his teammates and try to play GM, which is exactly what people are accusing LeBron of doing.

That is simply not true. Even after all these years secrets like that become known. I have watched MJ his entire career and not ONCE has he ever thrown a teammate under the bus. So find proof, or retract the statement.

Don't worry about it. LeBron d**k riders need to try to re-tell history and made stuff up to try and close the LARGE gap between LeBron and MJ

[Edug27]

On trade checker, Kyrie, JR (I know Cavs fans like him, but he is declining fast and a bad contract if/when Lebron leaves) and Osman (restriction through 8/17) work for Kemba, Batum, and Monk.

That's a lot to part with if you're Charlotte. Won't leave them very competitive.

[bwgood77]

Seriously. People used to Ainge and Boston fans were all overrating their own roleplayers on the team and now they have gone all we can hear us how we gutted our depth by replacing them.

Even if Ainge may have improved the squad just a tiny bit this offseason, then it still doesn't change the fact that Cavs will have got worse losing one of their all stars.

But that's the crux of the argument, what is the degree of the "improvement".

You're incorporating 3 new players into a new system (Hayward, Morris, Baynes), hoping for Brown's improvement in year 2 and then expecting a bunch of rooks in Zizic, Tatum, Yabusele, Thiel, Oyejie, Nadar to play meaningful championship contention minutes off the bench?

It's not that your previous pieces are being overrated or underrated, from an eye test, it was a core that made you guys successful. Producing or not, Zeller, Jerebko, Bradley, Amir, Green, etc., some had been there for 3 years or less and been apart of the battles of the past 3 years where ya'll were the #1 seed last year. I just don't put much stock into that being recreated when 10 out of 15 guys are new to the team. That's a pretty big turnover.

And in regards to matching up to CLE, your personnel is still piss poor at rebounding against us. That's the BIGGEST weakness of the past 3 years that you guys still haven't addressed. And KLove vs. Marcus Morris? Morris somewhat better offensively than Amir/Jerebko/Olynyk but still, Love eating Morris for dinner all day with that matchup. It's not real upgrade there.

And "if" we move Kyrie, most likely bringing back Bledsoe, it still doesn't close the gap between BOS/CLE. One could say, it could possibly make us better cuz Bledsoe actually has the tools to play defense as opposed to Kyrie's ole defense at times. And "if" we use the other PHO pieces to move for better fitting win-now pieces (i.e. Bradley, Wilson Chandler, Khris Middleton, etc.) That gap only widens...

First off Zeller and Jerekbo were bench warmers so thats irrelevant. You must be delusional if you think the additions of Hayward, Morris, and Baynes didn't improve their roster from last year. Hayward is light years ahead of Bradley on the offensive end and Morris is a 10x better defender and more versatile than Olynk. Celtics clearly got closer to the Cavs because of their added versatility on both ends. Love will in no way "eat Morris for dinner all day" lol you clearly have little basketball knowledge. Also, Bledsoe doesn't make you a better team - please stop this nonsense. Kyrie > Bledsoe.

The only players who will play "meaningful championship contention minutes off the bench" are Tatum and Zizic for like 8 MPG if that. You realize for the playoffs its like a 9 man rotation and the bench is: Morris, Smart/Brown, Tatum, and Baynes. That's a good bench.

Hey all, we don't need to derail this thread into a discussion about who's better between Boston and Cleveland. I'm sure there is enough debate about that elsewhere. Maybe after a trade goes down, if it does, a thread with that topic would make sense.

[711takeover]

But that's the crux of the argument, what is the degree of the "improvement".

You're incorporating 3 new players into a new system (Hayward, Morris, Baynes), hoping for Brown's improvement in year 2 and then expecting a bunch of rooks in Zizic, Tatum, Yabusele, Thiel, Oyejie, Nadar to play meaningful championship contention minutes off the bench?

It's not that your previous pieces are being overrated or underrated, from an eye test, it was a core that made you guys successful. Producing or not, Zeller, Jerebko, Bradley, Amir, Green, etc., some had been there for 3 years or less and been apart of the battles of the past 3 years where ya'll were the #1 seed last year. I just don't put much stock into that being recreated when 10 out of 15 guys are new to the team. That's a pretty big turnover.

And in regards to matching up to CLE, your personnel is still piss poor at rebounding against us. That's the BIGGEST weakness of the past 3 years that you guys still haven't addressed. And KLove vs. Marcus Morris? Morris somewhat better offensively than Amir/Jerebko/Olynyk but still, Love eating Morris for dinner all day with that matchup. It's not real upgrade there.

And "if" we move Kyrie, most likely bringing back Bledsoe, it still doesn't close the gap between BOS/CLE. One could say, it could possibly make us better cuz Bledsoe actually has the tools to play defense as opposed to Kyrie's ole defense at times. And "if" we use the other PHO pieces to move for better fitting win-now pieces (i.e. Bradley, Wilson Chandler, Khris Middleton, etc.) That gap only widens...

First off Zeller and Jerekbo were bench warmers so thats irrelevant. You must be delusional if you think the additions of Hayward, Morris, and Baynes didn't improve their roster from last year. Hayward is light years ahead of Bradley on the offensive end and Morris is a 10x better defender and more versatile than Olynk. Celtics clearly got closer to the Cavs because of their added versatility on both ends. Love will in no way "eat Morris for dinner all day" lol you clearly have little basketball knowledge. Also, Bledsoe doesn't make you a better team - please stop this nonsense. Kyrie > Bledsoe.

The only players who will play "meaningful championship contention minutes off the bench" are Tatum and Zizic for like 8 MPG if that. You realize for the playoffs its like a 9 man rotation and the bench is: Morris, Smart/Brown, Tatum, and Baynes. That's a good bench.

Hey all, we don't need to derail this thread into a discussion about who's better between Boston and Cleveland. I'm sure there is enough debate about that elsewhere. Maybe after a trade goes down, if it does, a thread with that topic would make sense.

Agreed!

[BasketballFan7]

Back to Kyrie trades, Charlotte would seem to be a good destination. They need a foundation player - Kemba isn't quite that, and MKG has been hurt. Kyrie is a dukie.

On trade checker, Kyrie, JR (I know Cavs fans like him, but he is declining fast and a bad contract if/when Lebron leaves) and Osman (restriction through 8/17) work for Kemba, Batum, and Monk.

Batum is a bit younger than JR, better overall though bigger contract, but most importantly, strong Lebron-leaving insurance - a Kemba-Monk/Shumpert-Batum-Love-Thompson team would at least be competitive. And Kemba is good enough that the drop-off from Kyrie for this season won't be too big. Monk is the prospect.

Meanwhile, Charlotte gets of the poor treadmill team track and can try to build around Kyrie (and MKG if healthy).

Cleveland is going to trade Shumpert, not Smith, and for good reason. I see no reason to declare that JR is declining fast. He was injured last season and went through a difficult time with the premature birth of his daughter. He had a career year from 3 in 2016 and played solid, effort laden defense. LeBron likes him and they fit well together.

Shumpert doesn't consistently play within his skillset and he appears to care for more his image than he does for winning. In all seriousness, it frequently looks as if he is afraid of giving off the appearance that he is trying too hard. His defense is overrated and he is only a non-negative offensively if standing in the corner. Unfortunately, the Cavaliers ideally want more dangerous shooters in the corner and one must always worry about Shumpert trying something outside of his skillset if he touches the ball offensively.

Also, no way is Charlotte making that trade. I don't think they would even offer Kemba and Batum without Monk. Perhaps Kemba and Kidd-Gilchrest, and I take that if I am Cleveland, hopefully with a pick included by Charlotte.