Kyrie Trade Discussion Continued

[Cavaliers2]

So I see Kyrie isn't willing to sign an extension with any team trading for him? Good to see he's killing his trade value...

[Stillwater]

So I see Kyrie isn't willing to sign an extension with any team trading for him? Good to see he's killing his trade value...

What the "report" said is he is unwilling to commit to anywhere he is traded right now. Any player would say that, not too mention that is pretty much the only leverage he has , supposing any team he didn't list is the ultimate destination.
But the thing is, he did not say " I will only commit to resign at 1 of the 4 teams I prefer to go to" He said he won't commit to anywhere... So that just indicates too me that no team preferred or otherwise has the upper hand against the others he did not list as preferred.
I think it would be safe to say the teams he listed as preferred destinations were due to rosters in place next 2 seasons, not the long term. (w/ exception of NY, where he would be playing in the Meca & at home)

[Hello Brooklyn]

ummmm. What arguments are you reading?

mplsfonz23: Find proof that MJ threw his teammates under the bus.

MtV: Mountains of MJ quotes throwing his teammates under the bus

You: "Well MJ never did this oddly specific thing Lebron did"

"I know what's gonna happen. We'll wait until the last minute and then they'll say something like they couldn't get a deal done because of the cap or somebody pulled out at the last minute. It happens here all the time. I don't know why I'm surprised every year."

How is that different than what Lebron does?

First of all nothing in that book is provable. MJ and many of his teammates have claimed that the things written in that book are false.

Why do we have to treat them as facts when there is no proof?

The things LeBron said were all public and indisputable. There is no evidence of Jordan ever going to the media and criticizing his teammates in that way.

None of those proves that MJ threw his teammates "under the bus."

You think MJ having heated arguments with Steve Kerr means he was throwing him under the bus?

None of those quotes are the same as what LeBron does.

He publicly diminishes his team, constantly claims he doesn't have enough help, and holds his team hostage every time hes in a contract year because he bounces from team to team.

Thats not what MJ did at all.

What exactly are you trying to argue here? That Jordan never did something as specific as what Lebron did? Ok. Prolly true. Most people care about motive and intention, which is why the parallels are made where they both denigrate and throw teammates under the bus. By most measures, jordan was more brash with it.

Lebron went on record as saying they don't have a backup point guard. Oh the horror

I'm trying to say that LeBron never threw his teammates "under the bus" because he never said they weren't good enough publicly.

Is that really that hard to you to comprehend lol.

I've said it several times. Do you need me to keep saying it again and again?

Its not oddly specific at all.

[Seabass11]

Cavs fans need to realize their team doesn't have very much leverage it's obvious after what Irving has done and no team has offered what the Cavilers have asked for. The reason being that they know that Kyrie if he is still their at the beginning of the season will be a cancer . The Suns have the best offer and that doesn't include Josh Jackson and will never include him because you can't guarantee that he will stay with the Suns in two years it's the main reason besides the one I pointed out for why no team will give Cavs what they want. Also since when has any team trading an all star or superstar ever gotten equal value when said team has very little leaverage the answer is never.

Cavs fans think this way because we've been in the same spot the Suns are in before when trying to trade for Love...I remember tons of Cavs fans saying "we have all the leverage, no need to include Wiggins. Dion, Bennett and TT/picks will be enough..." yeah didn't quite work out that way.
Oh and that was for a possible 1 year rental in Love versus 2 year Kyrie...both at the age of 25

[Hello Brooklyn]

ummmm. What arguments are you reading?

mplsfonz23: Find proof that MJ threw his teammates under the bus.

MtV: Mountains of MJ quotes throwing his teammates under the bus

You: "Well MJ never did this oddly specific thing Lebron did"

"I know what's gonna happen. We'll wait until the last minute and then they'll say something like they couldn't get a deal done because of the cap or somebody pulled out at the last minute. It happens here all the time. I don't know why I'm surprised every year."

How is that different than what Lebron does?

First of all nothing in that book is provable. MJ and many of his teammates have claimed that the things written in that book are false.

Why do we have to treat them as facts when there is no proof?

The things LeBron said were all public and indisputable. There is no evidence of Jordan ever going to the media and criticizing his teammates in that way.

None of those proves that MJ threw his teammates "under the bus."

You think MJ having heated arguments with Steve Kerr means he was throwing him under the bus?

None of those quotes are the same as what LeBron does.

He publicly diminishes his team, constantly claims he doesn't have enough help, and holds his team hostage every time hes in a contract year because he bounces from team to team.

Thats not what MJ did at all.

Dude...just admit you were wrong and move on. Its quite clear by the quotes that many of Jordan's teammates did not respect\like him or else why would they even say these things?

Yeah instead of responding to any of my points which proved you completely wrong just say "dude just admit you were wrong."

LMAO.

Jordan never publicly called out his teammates or "threw them under the bus." Getting into heated arguments with your teammates is not the same as calling them out publicly. That's comparison is completely idiotic.

Especially if all of the "quotes" about his teammates are not on the record and could be completely made up.

Stop being a LeBron fanboy and look at things objectively.

[Seabass11]

First of all nothing in that book is provable. MJ and many of his teammates have claimed that the things written in that book are false.

Why do we have to treat them as facts when there is no proof?

The things LeBron said were all public and indisputable. There is no evidence of Jordan ever going to the media and criticizing his teammates in that way.

None of those proves that MJ threw his teammates "under the bus."

You think MJ having heated arguments with Steve Kerr means he was throwing him under the bus?

None of those quotes are the same as what LeBron does.

He publicly diminishes his team, constantly claims he doesn't have enough help, and holds his team hostage every time hes in a contract year because he bounces from team to team.

Thats not what MJ did at all.

Dude...just admit you were wrong and move on. Its quite clear by the quotes that many of Jordan's teammates did not respect\like him or else why would they even say these things?

Yeah instead of responding to any of my points which proved you completely wrong just say "dude just admit you were wrong."

LMAO.

Jordan never publicly called out his teammates or "threw them under the bus." Getting into heated arguments with your teammates is not the same as calling them out publicly. That's comparison is completely idiotic.

Especially if all of the "quotes" about his teammates are not on the record and could be completely made up.

Stop being a LeBron fanboy and look at things objectively.

So just to be clear, your issue is that LeBron told the media that he thought this team needed a backup PG?

Thats what the big issue is for you?

[mg]

So I see Kyrie isn't willing to sign an extension with any team trading for him? Good to see he's killing his trade value...

The team trading for Kyrie, assuming there is a trade, will have him for TWO guaranteed seasons at least until 2019. That is a lifetime in the NBA. Who signs an extension with two guaranteed years plus an option year left on their contract especially when they are potentially being dealt to a brand new situation? If I'm a team trading for Kyrie all I ask is that he have an open mind about potentially resigning in two years..that's really all I could ask. It's not like he has the option to become a FA next summer.

[MrPerfect1]

Cavs fans need to realize their team doesn't have very much leverage it's obvious after what Irving has done and no team has offered what the Cavilers have asked for. The reason being that they know that Kyrie if he is still their at the beginning of the season will be a cancer . The Suns have the best offer and that doesn't include Josh Jackson and will never include him because you can't guarantee that he will stay with the Suns in two years it's the main reason besides the one I pointed out for why no team will give Cavs what they want. Also since when has any team trading an all star or superstar ever gotten equal value when said team has very little leaverage the answer is never.

Cavs fans think this way because we've been in the same spot the Suns are in before when trying to trade for Love...I remember tons of Cavs fans saying "we have all the leverage, no need to include Wiggins. Dion, Bennett and TT/picks will be enough..." yeah didn't quite work out that way.
Oh and that was for a possible 1 year rental in Love versus 2 year Kyrie...both at the age of 25

When the trade was being made, everyone basically assumed that Love and Lebron were in contact and that Love would 100% re-sign. The flight risk for Kyrie is far higher. Love also was considered better with MINN than Kyrie in CLE. Love had 2 2nd team All NBA's vs Kyrie with just 1 3rd team All NBA

[Hello Brooklyn]

Dude...just admit you were wrong and move on. Its quite clear by the quotes that many of Jordan's teammates did not respect\like him or else why would they even say these things?

Yeah instead of responding to any of my points which proved you completely wrong just say "dude just admit you were wrong."

LMAO.

Jordan never publicly called out his teammates or "threw them under the bus." Getting into heated arguments with your teammates is not the same as calling them out publicly. That's comparison is completely idiotic.

Especially if all of the "quotes" about his teammates are not on the record and could be completely made up.

Stop being a LeBron fanboy and look at things objectively.

So just to be clear, your issue is that LeBron told the media that he thought this team needed a backup PG?

Thats what the big issue is for you?

All you're doing now is creating a strawman.

The argument was never about LeBron specifically asking for a backup PG. It was about LeBron calling out his teammates regularly. Apparently Kyrie cared about this and its part of why he asked out.

And I didnt bring it up. I was just responding to the comparison.

[phraoh]

[quote="sunskerr"]There's probably a bit of a stand off. I just hope the front office doesn't cave on Josh Jackson because there is a lot of media/big money interest trying to pressure the Suns into emptying their piggy bank for LeBron & the Cavs. This seems to happen a lot to teams in similar positions where more successful franchises/larger markets/the media have this bs about them that they can just grab any player they want from the less successful franchise.

But the thing here is that the Suns don't need Irving. They can just as easily keep Bledsoe and some other asset(s) and stay the course. Maybe the Cavs can even trade Irving to another team. Nothing gained but nothing risked. They would still have some great young talent to develop. The Cavs on the other hand are risking going in to the season with a very unhappy star player. Make no mistake - the Cavaliers are not in the driver's seat for trade negotiations with any team.[/quote]

It is not often that a top 15 all star is available to trade for that isn't in the last year of his contract, so to say Phoenix is in the drivers seat is ridiculous. Of course, they can do nothing and hope to develop their team. Ask Sacramento how that has worked out for them? But not picking on Sacramento, but any rebuilding team with young "talent" (hint...most 1st round picks don't amount to anything). When you have the opportunity to get a YOUNG (we aren't talking about a 30 year old with 2 years left on his contract) all star, you try to do everything you can to get him.

This talk about who has the upper hand means nothing...you make a deal both teams can live with since Phoenix is motivated to add a young all star and Cleveland is motivated to trade a guy that doesn't want to be on their team. Heck, Cavs would probably want Booker, Bledsoe and Jackson, but obviously why would Phoenix do that? Phoenix probably wants to give Bledsoe, Chandler, and Dudley, but Cavs have to add youth and picks, so why would they do that?

A trade is going to get done whether Phoenix fans want it or Cavs fans want it, because they are obvious trade partners for several reasons. I think it is more likely that Phoenix includes Jackson than Cavs do the deal without Jackson. Fans make big mistakes falling in love and making a rookie untouchable when he hasn't even played one regular season game !!

[Benedict_Boozer]

Kyrie just screwed us by refusing to commit long term. Cavs will get ass raped in pretty much any trade now value wise, might as well just keep him and ride it out. Once Lebron ages or leaves the rebuild will be in full effect anyways.

[phraoh]

[quote="Benedict_Boozer"]Kyrie just screwed us by refusing to commit long term. Cavs will get ass raped in pretty much any trade now value wise, might as well just keep him and ride it out. Once Lebron ages or leaves the rebuild will be in full effect anyways.[/quote]

You are being naive and ridiculous in that comment. Why would ANYONE say he will resign with a new team with 2 years left on his contract. Means nothing. As others have pointed out, 2 full years in the NBA is an eternity, and if you have a young exciting NBA all star you are NOT screwed trying to trade him.

[Dupp]

Very convenient timing with this not being willing to commit thing.

[gino_giode]

Yep

Kyrie justifiably felt he was an untouchable on this team along with Bron. But when he sees team management acquiesce yet again to Bron in order to get him guys that only Bron can win with, it rightfully set Kyrie off the deep end . Context here matters since Kyrie has publicly stated he's been waiting patiently to make this his own team.

Plus there's the statement from Rob Parker on the Herd where Bron supposedly asked the team to trade Kyrie for CP3 even after they won their title. Remember earlier in that year Bron talked about his hope to have the banana boat team one day.

As much as it seems Kyrie is dissing Bron right now, Bron's been dissing him ever since he took back this team.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You managed to be like 100% wrong on what actually happened. If LBJ had signed off on a Kyrie trade pre-draft, he'd be gone.

Another pre-draft trade plan was Kyrie for Bledsoe--that fell through because LeBron wouldn't commit to the Cavs after this year.

And I believe Rob Parker's story of LeBron wanting Kyrie gone for CP3 at the time. Management didn't agree then because they just won the title.

LeBron wanted Kyrie gone long before this year.

You're 100% in denial

[RCM88x]

Very convenient timing with this not being willing to commit thing.

I'm sure the teams in trade talks with the Cavs have known this for multiple days now, besides we pretty much knew this right from the start anyways.

[Seabass11]

Yeah instead of responding to any of my points which proved you completely wrong just say "dude just admit you were wrong."

LMAO.

Jordan never publicly called out his teammates or "threw them under the bus." Getting into heated arguments with your teammates is not the same as calling them out publicly. That's comparison is completely idiotic.

Especially if all of the "quotes" about his teammates are not on the record and could be completely made up.

Stop being a LeBron fanboy and look at things objectively.

So just to be clear, your issue is that LeBron told the media that he thought this team needed a backup PG?

Thats what the big issue is for you?

All you're doing now is creating a strawman.

The argument was never about LeBron specifically asking for a backup PG. It was about LeBron calling out his teammates regularly. Apparently Kyrie cared about this and its part of why he asked out.

And I didnt bring it up. I was just responding to the comparison.

Sorry I did kind of peak into the convo late. If thats all you're saying then I agree...it probably played a part in why he wants out.

As far as MJ versus LeBron, they both call out teammates but in different ways. MJ would tell them directly to their face and cause fist fights behind closed doors, LeBron will leave cryptic tweets or ask for a backup PG (that ONE time) to the media. To me, MJ is worse. I have yet to hear a single one of LeBron's teammates attack him personally or call him a bad teammate whereas as has been shown in detail already...MJ's ex-teammates rip on him constantly.

[Seabass11]

Is there an actual rumor floating around with Kemba's name?

If so, and the Cavs are taking deals OVER Kemba, I would think Jackson would have to be included bc Kemba > Bledose

[Takingbaconback]

Is there an actual rumor floating around with Kemba's name?

If so, and the Cavs are taking deals OVER Kemba, I would think Jackson would have to be included bc Kemba > Bledose

Depends on what else Hornets are giving up. Something like Bledsoe, Warren or Chriss, 1st round pick > Kemba. But no that's just more of fan trade ideas, although it sounds like a good trade for both sides.

[BasketballFan7]

Is there an actual rumor floating around with Kemba's name?

If so, and the Cavs are taking deals OVER Kemba, I would think Jackson would have to be included bc Kemba > Bledose

No, no rumors he would be perfect, too

[Superhuman]

I bet both my left nuts that if a trade were to go down, Jackson would absolutely not be included.