Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving?

[mab2039]

Shumpert for Dudley or Chandler
take on Frye or RJ - saves them a boat load of money

I know you keep saying it, but the above trade you mentioned does not save them money nor does it make any sense. I dont think they are looking to trade RJ or Frye, they are being paid peanuts compared to other players around the league. And they bring vast experience and veteran leadership. Shumpert is a dead weight to them, i agree on that. Dudley and Chandler is not worth their contract considering their age and Cleveland has no use for them.
BTW Gilbert is not looking for savings, he is one of the very few owners who would go balls to the walls for championships.

Agree with most of that except two things. Cavs absolutely could use Dudley, a good vet and great 3pt shooter around Bron. Second, every rich guy wants to save money if they can. If they can get rid of Shump's contract (and they have been trying, per Lowe), they will. Gilbert is willing to spend money if it's worth it. By all indications Shump isn't to him.

How can they use Dudley at 10 mil who plays the same position as Lebron when they have cheaper alternative in RJ and Jeff Green. What they need is a versatile athletic defender which Dudley is not at this age. Yes every rich guy wants to save money but if you look at Gilberts willingness to spend money on the roster, you cant help appreciate it. Btw i already said Shumpert is a dead weight to them so ofcourse they want to trade him. He is athletic and can be versatile but his head isnt straight meaning low IQ.

[Mulhollanddrive]

If we can do: Bledsoe, Dudley, Warren, Top 10 Protected Pick

Post-Booker core of Booker, Jackson, Chriss, Bender, Ulis and 2018, 2019 Top 10 Picks remain for the shot of 2 or 3 All-Stars for #thetimeline.

So even if Irving leaves our strategy is still in tact.

[mab2039]

Shumpert for Dudley or Chandler
take on Frye or RJ - saves them a boat load of money

I know you keep saying it, but the above trade you mentioned does not save them money nor does it make any sense. I dont think they are looking to trade RJ or Frye, they are being paid peanuts compared to other players around the league. And they bring vast experience and veteran leadership. Shumpert is a dead weight to them, i agree on that. Dudley and Chandler is not worth their contract considering their age and Cleveland has no use for them.
BTW Gilbert is not looking for savings, he is one of the very few owners who would go balls to the walls for championships.

Well the Cavs have to pay the luxury tax at a 4:1 rate iirc so getting rid of Frye saves them $28 millions, Shumpert $40, etc. I think Gilbert is stingier than you think. Look at what he is offering his GM's. Lowest salary in the league by a wide margin. I think he was only willing to spend so much as long as LeBron was with them but now that he's probably gonna move on next year, Gilbert seems to be looking towards the post-LeBron era too.
So I think it is very much in their interest to attach one or two of those in a trade.

What do you mean, Gilbert is stingier than i think? Are you telling me you know him personally? Just look at the way he has spent on the roster in the past and tell me if you think he is stingier. BTW i said roster not staff. You know why he offers low pays to his GM's, its because he is one of those hands on owners who gets into negotiating and dealing of the club by himself many times. How did dolan paying that sum of money to Phil turn out? It could be bad or it could be good but his way of spending money on roster is not questionable.

[mab2039]

BTW Gilbert is not looking for savings, he is one of the very few owners who would go balls to the walls for championships.

But won't pay Griffin. :/

Would you rather have Sarver or Gilber as an owner of the Phoenix Suns? Let me answer that question for you, If gilbert had been the owner instead of Sarver from the begining, you would already have multiple championship to show for it.

[lilfishi22]

If we can do: Bledsoe, Dudley, Warren, Top 10 Protected Pick

Post-Booker core of Booker, Jackson, Chriss, Bender, Ulis and 2018, 2019 Top 10 Picks remain for the shot of 2 or 3 All-Stars for #thetimeline.

So even if Irving leaves our strategy is still in tact.

I'd say Warren or the pick, not both.

[AtheJ415]

BTW Gilbert is not looking for savings, he is one of the very few owners who would go balls to the walls for championships.

But won't pay Griffin. :/

Would you rather have Sarver or Gilber as an owner of the Phoenix Suns? Let me answer that question for you, If gilbert had been the owner instead of Sarver from the begining, you would already have multiple championship to show for it.

That is unbelievably incorrect, and also Sarver hasn't been cheap in about a decade. It's one of the biggest misnomer's in the NBA. He let Amare go, and then that very same offseason spent as much on Hakim Warrick, Hedo Turkoglu, etc.. He also sold draft picks (Rondo, Deng) only to spend even more on Banks. His issue has not been being cheap--it has been choosing to spend the money on the wrong players.

Also, Gilbert would not have won us a title, let alone multiple ones, unless he could have somehow prevented (1) Tim Donaghy rigging a game, and (2) the Robert Horry hip check and subsequent suspensions. Those are the only teams that had a real shot at winning one in Sarver's tenure, and I fail to see how ownership would have fixed that.

[jredsaz]

Top 3 protected?

I hope so

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Needs to be at least top 5. All of Doncic, Porter, Ayton, Bagley, and Bamba imo are more valuable than Jackson. There also isn't a wide variation between those 5 in value imo (except maybe Bagley or Doncic depending on who you ask). Thus, top 3 doesn't make sense to me. Top 5 makes a lot of sense, but I'd do top 10. At the end of the day Bledsoe is already nearly as good as Kyrie, happens to be BFF with their star player, and we are probably taking salary back also. If we are also trading Warren or Chriss, that is overkill. Kyrie refuses to agree to re-sign, and I feel like we are bidding against ourselves and a horrible Dragic + Winslow or Aldridge + something package.

We will see how many of those players end up as better prospects than Jackson. Giles was #1 and Jackson was #2 at this time last year. The #20 and #4 picks in the draft.

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[jredsaz]

But won't pay Griffin. :/

Would you rather have Sarver or Gilber as an owner of the Phoenix Suns? Let me answer that question for you, If gilbert had been the owner instead of Sarver from the begining, you would already have multiple championship to show for it.

That is unbelievably incorrect, and also Sarver hasn't been cheap in about a decade. It's one of the biggest misnomer's in the NBA. He let Amare go, and then that very same offseason spent as much on Hakim Warrick, Hedo Turkoglu, etc.. He also sold draft picks (Rondo, Deng) only to spend even more on Banks. His issue has not been being cheap--it has been choosing to spend the money on the wrong players.

Also, Gilbert would not have won us a title, let alone multiple ones, unless he could have somehow prevented (1) Tim Donaghy rigging a game, and (2) the Robert Horry hip check and subsequent suspensions. Those are the only teams that had a real shot at winning one in Sarver's tenure, and I fail to see how ownership would have fixed that.

A better owner would have offered Joe Johnson the $55 million and if he didn't, would have matched the Hawks offer instead of trading him away. That probably gets us one if not more rings.

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[Villalobos]

I know you keep saying it, but the above trade you mentioned does not save them money nor does it make any sense. I dont think they are looking to trade RJ or Frye, they are being paid peanuts compared to other players around the league. And they bring vast experience and veteran leadership. Shumpert is a dead weight to them, i agree on that. Dudley and Chandler is not worth their contract considering their age and Cleveland has no use for them.
BTW Gilbert is not looking for savings, he is one of the very few owners who would go balls to the walls for championships.

Agree with most of that except two things. Cavs absolutely could use Dudley, a good vet and great 3pt shooter around Bron. Second, every rich guy wants to save money if they can. If they can get rid of Shump's contract (and they have been trying, per Lowe), they will. Gilbert is willing to spend money if it's worth it. By all indications Shump isn't to him.

How can they use Dudley at 10 mil who plays the same position as Lebron when they have cheaper alternative in RJ and Jeff Green. What they need is a versatile athletic defender which Dudley is not at this age. Yes every rich guy wants to save money but if you look at Gilberts willingness to spend money on the roster, you cant help appreciate it. Btw i already said Shumpert is a dead weight to them so ofcourse they want to trade him. He is athletic and can be versatile but his head isnt straight meaning low IQ.

Dudley plays a ton at PF now, and last year he had a DRPM of 1.89 on one of the worst defensive teams in the league. He's good, he knows how to play basketball, he can shoot, and he can defend. And even if he did play the same position as LeBron he'd be a lifeline on that garbage bench they have. Richard Jefferson was trash last year and should have retired and he'll be worse next year at 37 years old. Jeff Green is barely a basketball player, no matter how athletic he is. He'll probably play about as many minutes as Derrick Williams did in the playoffs.

And my point about Shump sailed right over your head so forget about it.

[AtheJ415]

I hope so

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Needs to be at least top 5. All of Doncic, Porter, Ayton, Bagley, and Bamba imo are more valuable than Jackson. There also isn't a wide variation between those 5 in value imo (except maybe Bagley or Doncic depending on who you ask). Thus, top 3 doesn't make sense to me. Top 5 makes a lot of sense, but I'd do top 10. At the end of the day Bledsoe is already nearly as good as Kyrie, happens to be BFF with their star player, and we are probably taking salary back also. If we are also trading Warren or Chriss, that is overkill. Kyrie refuses to agree to re-sign, and I feel like we are bidding against ourselves and a horrible Dragic + Winslow or Aldridge + something package.

We will see how many of those players end up as better prospects than Jackson. Giles was #1 and Jackson was #2 at this time last year. The #20 and #4 picks in the draft.

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Well obviously we will see. It's easy to say that after the fact, but the only reason Giles fell was due to rampant injuries and a poor showing post-injury. It isn't like people were proven wrong on Giles. He had serious injuries that hampered him and destroyed his stock. Also, DX had Fultz 1 all of last year.

Point being, you can only make decisions based on information at the time. Doncic is considered the best European prospect ever by many. Porter is considered a franchise cornerstone (as is Jackson). Bagley is considered a generational talent. Ayton is a 2 way 7 footer who has the tools to be a plus player on offense and defense, and Bamba is a great athlete with Gobert-esque length and an improving jumper. It isn't a crazy statement at all to say that all of those guys may have more value than Jackson today.

[LukasBMW]

The opportunity cost of Irving is Bledsoe/Warren/Miami pick.

For argument sake, let's say we could move Bledsoe for a younger PG with potential on a rookie deal.
Let's also say that the Miami pick is late lotto - #12

Instead of Irving we could have:

Ulis/Bledsoe replacement
Booker/
Jackson/Warren
Bender/Chriss
2018 top 5 pick (us)/2018 end of lotto pick (Miami)

So basically we "double up" with youth talent at every position EXCEPT SG where Booker is a sure thing.

The 2018 draft is loaded with true centers. We can take our best shot at two of them.

And we keep Warren.

And we add another young PG.

So basically going into the summer of 2018 we will have doubled up on high quality rookies with potential at every position, Warren will be our only rotation player not on a rookie deal, and we will have cap room.

Isn't that a better situation?

Only half of our youth has to pan out for it to work.

Ulis will be a backup at worst
Booker is a stud
I'm high on both Jackson and Chriss
One of Bender and Chriss will live up to expectation
We have two more shots at a center in the 2018 draft

It's a controlled bet. Kinda like getting two chances to win at roulette and only risking one hand.

[MrMiyagi]

Here's an unlikely monkey wrench for y'all to consider: What if not trading for Kyrie now lands us LeBron next offseason?

Now, I know it seems easy to make up a bigger star coming to Phoenix as a straw man argument, but when I hear "Cleveland wants (Bledsoe/Booker/Jackson)," I hear "LeBron wants (Bledsoe/Booker/Jackson)". How far-fetched is it really that LeBron takes his talents to Phoenix to groom a young team to carry him to more championships than Jordan? His boy James Jones is in our Front Office now too.

People love to talk about Westbrook/PG13/LeBron heading to the Lakers like it's a sure thing, but if LeBron and Kyrie can't get along, what makes him think Russell "I don't need Durant" Westbrook would defer to him? Wouldn't it be easier to mold a group of talented 20 year olds to suit your needs?

[Sunzgunz]

There is nothing 'cryptic' about an ex hurricane saying hes getting a bag! In Miami it's called 'blunt!'

He's not 'packing' a bag. He's getting a bag. He's 'packing' a bowl!

Funny thing is, cavs never worked him out, although they didnt have a pick, lol. Some of local pundits in Cleveland thought he'd be worth sneaking into the 2nd round though.

Knicks worked him out....as did a dozen other teams.

Thats why I was thinking Colorado vacation.

Yeah, I hadn't got there yet, lol. Dank minds think alike! Wait, I think it's great minds, lol

Weed Reed

[Qwigglez]

With Kyrie publicly saying he won't sign with an extension with any team that trades for him I'm leaning towards not trading for him, unless the package deal isn't too much. The reason I say this is because we have been the number 1 team rumored to get him, so it's almost a diss at the Suns specifically. To me, this is completely different than him having four teams he wants to go to because it appears in my opinion, he is targeting the Suns and telling us not to trade for him basically.
Now, I would still likely trade Bledsoe Miami 2018 1st, Jones Jr/Reed to get him, but I doubt that gets it done. I'd even go as far as giving them a pick swap with our pick though our pick is top 10 protected.

[Moochthemonkey]

Would you rather have Sarver or Gilber as an owner of the Phoenix Suns? Let me answer that question for you, If gilbert had been the owner instead of Sarver from the begining, you would already have multiple championship to show for it.

That is unbelievably incorrect, and also Sarver hasn't been cheap in about a decade. It's one of the biggest misnomer's in the NBA. He let Amare go, and then that very same offseason spent as much on Hakim Warrick, Hedo Turkoglu, etc.. He also sold draft picks (Rondo, Deng) only to spend even more on Banks. His issue has not been being cheap--it has been choosing to spend the money on the wrong players.

Also, Gilbert would not have won us a title, let alone multiple ones, unless he could have somehow prevented (1) Tim Donaghy rigging a game, and (2) the Robert Horry hip check and subsequent suspensions. Those are the only teams that had a real shot at winning one in Sarver's tenure, and I fail to see how ownership would have fixed that.

A better owner would have offered Joe Johnson the $55 million and if he didn't, would have matched the Hawks offer instead of trading him away. That probably gets us one if not more rings.

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that's possible; but JJ made it clear that he didn't want to resign here as the fourth wheel.

Also, who knows how a (frustrated) JJ would fare compared to both Boris & Raja Bell.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Cleveland are only going to get low balled further now that Irving says he will not commit to any team.

I think that means a Bledsoe package will remain the best deal and the decision will be Phoenix or Cleveland rather than any other suitor.

[lilfishi22]

Here's an unlikely monkey wrench for y'all to consider: What if not trading for Kyrie now lands us LeBron next offseason?

Now, I know it seems easy to make up a bigger star coming to Phoenix as a straw man argument, but when I hear "Cleveland wants (Bledsoe/Booker/Jackson)," I hear "LeBron wants (Bledsoe/Booker/Jackson)". How far-fetched is it really that LeBron takes his talents to Phoenix to groom a young team to carry him to more championships than Jordan? His boy James Jones is in our Front Office now too.

People love to talk about Westbrook/PG13/LeBron heading to the Lakers like it's a sure thing, but if LeBron and Kyrie can't get along, what makes him think Russell "I don't need Durant" Westbrook would defer to him? Wouldn't it be easier to mold a group of talented 20 year olds to suit your needs?

Now that we're full blown in rebuild mode, I really only want players that is a better fit for our core. Lebron joining us to me would signal we're going to sell off everything to be championship ready in at most 2 seasons. That means we're losing all our young guys and picks except for maybe Booker and JJ. I'm not keen for that.

I just don't see Lebron wanting to come here to groom our kids...

[DirtyDez]

BTW Gilbert is not looking for savings, he is one of the very few owners who would go balls to the walls for championships.

But won't pay Griffin. :/

Would you rather have Sarver or Gilber as an owner of the Phoenix Suns? Let me answer that question for you, If gilbert had been the owner instead of Sarver from the begining, you would already have multiple championship to show for it.

It's hard to say since both have their flaws. Sarver has been cheap at times and he's always held the team back by overspending. I want an owner who stays out of the way and lets the basketball people make basketball decisions.

Gilbert didn't have a problem taking financial losses at the expense of a championship window but they kinda seem like a mess right now with the GM debacle. He's also been incredible lucky in the lottery which would never happen to the Suns.

[lilfishi22]

With Kyrie publicly saying he won't sign with an extension with any team that trades for him I'm leaning towards not trading for him, unless the package deal isn't too much. The reason I say this is because we have been the number 1 team rumored to get him, so it's almost a diss at the Suns specifically. To me, this is completely different than him having four teams he wants to go to because it appears in my opinion, he is targeting the Suns and telling us not to trade for him basically.
Now, I would still likely trade Bledsoe Miami 2018 1st, Jones Jr/Reed to get him, but I doubt that gets it done. I'd even go as far as giving them a pick swap with our pick though our pick is top 10 protected.

You definitely need to price down the package. Even if theoretically the chances of him resigning is the same, the fact that he's come out to say he won't even verbally commit long term, you need to bring down the value you're willing to trade.

For me, Bledsoe and Miami pick or Chriss is fair.

[DirtyDez]

With Kyrie publicly saying he won't sign with an extension with any team that trades for him I'm leaning towards not trading for him, unless the package deal isn't too much. The reason I say this is because we have been the number 1 team rumored to get him, so it's almost a diss at the Suns specifically. To me, this is completely different than him having four teams he wants to go to because it appears in my opinion, he is targeting the Suns and telling us not to trade for him basically.
Now, I would still likely trade Bledsoe Miami 2018 1st, Jones Jr/Reed to get him, but I doubt that gets it done. I'd even go as far as giving them a pick swap with our pick though our pick is top 10 protected.

Cleveland are only going to get low balled further now that Irving says he will not commit to any team.

I think that means a Bledsoe package will remain the best deal and the decision will be Phoenix or Cleveland rather than any other suitor.

I'm not sure why this is even a story. Why would he blindly re-sign with a new team? These guys should be keeping their options open.