RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23

[Joao Saraiva]

I'll vote among Durant, Scottie Pippen and Chris Paul. Call me crazy but maybe I'll add Billups to the hunt soon. I really think he's one of the greatest guards of all time.

[Clyde Frazier]

Sad to see wade leapfrog pettit (went 21 and 23 in 2014). Obviously out of my control as i haven't had the time to contribute to this project as I would've liked. Just look at wade's career as rather uneven relative to pettit's. I'll definitely be lending my support to him in this thread.

[mischievous]

Sad to see wade leapfrog pettit (went 21 and 23 in 2014). Obviously out of my control as i haven't had the time to contribute to this project as I would've liked. Just look at wade's career as rather uneven relative to pettit's. I'll definitely be lending my support to him in this thread.

Eh. Wade reached much higher heights than Pettit. 06, 09 and 10-11 are all seasons better than Pettit's peak. There is nothing sad here.

[Clyde Frazier]

Sad to see wade leapfrog pettit (went 21 and 23 in 2014). Obviously out of my control as i haven't had the time to contribute to this project as I would've liked. Just look at wade's career as rather uneven relative to pettit's. I'll definitely be lending my support to him in this thread.

Eh. Wade reached much higher heights than Pettit. 06, 09 and 10-11 are all seasons better than Pettit's peak. There is nothing sad here.

I disagree. Pettit overall had a more impressive career year in and year out to me. I know you're a wade fan, so i'm not gonna bother arguing with you any further. Don't have the time or energy. Just wanted to put my opinion out there.

[mischievous]

Sad to see wade leapfrog pettit (went 21 and 23 in 2014). Obviously out of my control as i haven't had the time to contribute to this project as I would've liked. Just look at wade's career as rather uneven relative to pettit's. I'll definitely be lending my support to him in this thread.

Eh. Wade reached much higher heights than Pettit. 06, 09 and 10-11 are all seasons better than Pettit's peak. There is nothing sad here.

I disagree. Pettit overall had a more impressive career year in and year out to me. I know you're a wade fan, so i'm not gonna bother arguing with you any further. Don't have the time or energy. Just wanted to put my opinion out there.

Its fine to have Petitt higher, i just don't get the "it's sad" comment. Apparently enough posters see Wade as having the more impressive career. Arguments can be made and have been made both ways.

[pandrade83]

My Top 2 Point Guards left: Working on it - but whoever it is doesn't get the vote.
My Top 2 wing/forwards left: Durant/Pettit
My Top 2 Centers left: Ewing/Mikan full disclosure - I grew up a Knicks fan.

Kevin Durant is great. He really is. For a second, I was worried he would be the Drexler to Lebron. I'm glad he's became so much more (and that's not an insult to Drexler). I loved that he figured out in the Finals that he is the best center in the league because he is the evolution of where that position is going. I loved that he really took his defensive game to another level this year. I loved that he went right at Lebron in the Finals. I sincerely believe he has the potential to become a Top 10 GOAT player and pass Bird. If he doesn't get injured those two years (I really believe OKC wins the '13 title if he doesn't get hurt), the narrative changes and he's in the Top 20. He's still "only" 44th in Win Shares, "only" 33rd in VORP, I think he will get to where he is going. He's a situation where the RPAM stats are wrong. Some things that highlight his impact:

- > 60% TS every year since '12 on >25 ppg every year during that time span. That's amazing efficiency - better than Dirk - who got all kinds of love earlier.
- A strong playmaker on top of his deadly efficiency - hovering at or around 5 apg since '13; that's why his TOV rate hovers around 12.
- OKC falls from 2nd in offensive efficiency to 16th once he departs
- GS improves from -2.6 to -4.8 on Defense this year. I know some are saying his D Impact is questionable and his career advanced stats are middling but I believe that's due to the context of the team; the improvement when he arrived in GS is material.


Patrick Ewing anchored a defense that was best in the league for 3 straight years and Top 4 for nearly a decade. He forced MJ into a Game 7, and had MJ down 2-0 in '93. Everyone holds the '94 Finals over his head - what is forgotten is that he set the Finals blocks record in that series. He never won the big one and has some memorable defeats - but even in defeat he was a monster ('95 Gm 7 vs Indy, '97 Gm 7 vs. Miami, '92/'93 series vs. Chicago). He was what got them over the hump ('90 vs. Boston, '92 vs. Detroit) and he never played with another player in their prime who will sniff this list. It's unfortunate that he never quite got a chip - his offensive deficiencies had a way of showing up at the worst times.

Mikan: I need to reconcile the fact that at peak, for his era his impact is as great as anyone's - but the era he played in might get taken to the cleaners by the ACC - even after nutrition/medical benefits are applied. I have him slotted as my next Center to get my support after Ewing is in.

Point Guards: I need to do more work here; 1 or 2 more good years from Steph & he probably passes Pettit - but I'm not ready to put him in over Ewing - yet - nor do I feel that way about any of the other point guards. More to come.

Pettit: Very impressive for his era and for his era, I think you can definitely argue he did more than Durant. His era was just a lot weaker than Durant's. His prime held up well - no "hanging on" years - 10 really good seasons. Held his own against Baylor/West just fine, worked with Hagan to knock off Russell's Celtics (albeit Russell only played 4 games) and was the best player in that series - dropped 50 in the final game. He held up very well even after Chamberlain & Russell joined the league & the league became progressively more athletic. He's a little bit lucky to get his chip - but that's part of how things go - ultimately he did get the chip and he DID anchor the league's best offense until the Big O & West came around. He'd be my 2nd choice here except for 1) the whole 50's thing & 2) I don't put as much stock in titles won from that era unless you beat one of Pettit, Russell, Chamberlain, West/Baylor, Robertson to do so. And he didn't actually BEAT Russell - that series was tied - but Boston had a massive point differential edge and nearly won Games 5 & 6 which lead me to believe that the Celtics would've won. Otherwise, see my comments from Mikan - you might as well have won the ACC (even after adjusting for health/nutritional benefits). I'll be voting for him before Mikan because of how he held up in a league that had those elite players in it - whereas I don't even think Mikan does that well if he is transported just 10 years ahead.

1st choice: Kevin Durant
Alternate Selection: Patrick Ewing

[pandrade83]

Eh. Wade reached much higher heights than Pettit. 06, 09 and 10-11 are all seasons better than Pettit's peak. There is nothing sad here.

I disagree. Pettit overall had a more impressive career year in and year out to me. I know you're a wade fan, so i'm not gonna bother arguing with you any further. Don't have the time or energy. Just wanted to put my opinion out there.

Its fine to have Petitt higher, i just don't get the "it's sad" comment. Apparently enough posters see Wade as having the more impressive career. Arguments can be made and have been made both ways.

I agree. We're at a point where the reasonable candidate list goes double digit deep (imo). Obviously I made my vote and my vote is my vote but there's a lot of ways where I think a person can go here.

[JoeMalburg]

My Top 2 Point Guards left: Working on it - but whoever it is doesn't get the vote.
My Top 2 wing/forwards left: Durant/Pettit
My Top 2 Centers left: Ewing/Mikan full disclosure - I grew up a Knicks fan.

Kevin Durant is great. He really is. For a second, I was worried he would be the Drexler to Lebron. I'm glad he's became so much more (and that's not an insult to Drexler). I loved that he figured out in the Finals that he is the best center in the league because he is the evolution of where that position is going. I loved that he really took his defensive game to another level this year. I loved that he went right at Lebron in the Finals. I sincerely believe he has the potential to become a Top 10 GOAT player and pass Bird. If he doesn't get injured those two years (I really believe OKC wins the '13 title if he doesn't get hurt), the narrative changes and he's in the Top 20. He's still "only" 44th in Win Shares, "only" 33rd in VORP, I think he will get to where he is going. He's a situation where the RPAM stats are wrong. Some things that highlight his impact:

- > 60% TS every year since '12 on >25 ppg every year during that time span. That's amazing efficiency - better than Dirk - who got all kinds of love earlier.
- A strong playmaker on top of his deadly efficiency - hovering at or around 5 apg since '13; that's why his TOV rate hovers around 12.
- OKC falls from 2nd in offensive efficiency to 16th once he departs
- GS improves from -2.6 to -4.8 on Defense this year. I know some are saying his D Impact is questionable and his career advanced stats are middling but I believe that's due to the context of the team; the improvement when he arrived in GS is material.


Patrick Ewing anchored a defense that was best in the league for 3 straight years and Top 4 for nearly a decade. He forced MJ into a Game 7, and had MJ down 2-0 in '93. Everyone holds the '94 Finals over his head - what is forgotten is that he set the Finals blocks record in that series. He never won the big one and has some memorable defeats - but even in defeat he was a monster ('95 Gm 7 vs Indy, '97 Gm 7 vs. Miami, '92/'93 series vs. Chicago). He was what got them over the hump ('90 vs. Boston, '92 vs. Detroit) and he never played with another player in their prime who will sniff this list. It's unfortunate that he never quite got a chip - his offensive deficiencies had a way of showing up at the worst times.

Mikan: I need to reconcile the fact that at peak, for his era his impact is as great as anyone's - but the era he played in might get taken to the cleaners by the ACC - even after nutrition/medical benefits are applied. I have him slotted as my next Center to get my support after Ewing is in.

Point Guards: I need to do more work here; 1 or 2 more good years from Steph & he probably passes Pettit - but I'm not ready to put him in over Ewing - yet - nor do I feel that way about any of the other point guards. More to come.

Pettit: Very impressive for his era and for his era, I think you can definitely argue he did more than Durant. His era was just a lot weaker than Durant's. His prime held up well - no "hanging on" years - 10 really good seasons. Held his own against Baylor/West just fine, worked with Hagan to knock off Russell's Celtics (albeit Russell only played 4 games) and was the best player in that series - dropped 50 in the final game. He held up very well even after Chamberlain & Russell joined the league & the league became progressively more athletic. He's a little bit lucky to get his chip - but that's part of how things go - ultimately he did get the chip and he DID anchor the league's best offense until the Big O & West came around. He'd be my 2nd choice here except for 1) the whole 50's thing & 2) I don't put as much stock in titles won from that era unless you beat one of Pettit, Russell, Chamberlain, West/Baylor, Robertson to do so. And he didn't actually BEAT Russell - that series was tied - but Boston had a massive point differential edge and nearly won Games 5 & 6 which lead me to believe that the Celtics would've won. Otherwise, see my comments from Mikan - you might as well have won the ACC (even after adjusting for health/nutritional benefits). I'll be voting for him before Mikan because of how he held up in a league that had those elite players in it - whereas I don't even think Mikan does that well if he is transported just 10 years ahead.

1st choice: Kevin Durant
Alternate Selection: Patrick Ewing

My Top 2 Point Guards left: Working on it - but whoever it is doesn't get the vote.
My Top 2 wing/forwards left: Durant/Pettit
My Top 2 Centers left: Ewing/Mikan full disclosure - I grew up a Knicks fan.

Kevin Durant is great. He really is. For a second, I was worried he would be the Drexler to Lebron. I'm glad he's became so much more (and that's not an insult to Drexler). I loved that he figured out in the Finals that he is the best center in the league because he is the evolution of where that position is going. I loved that he really took his defensive game to another level this year. I loved that he went right at Lebron in the Finals. I sincerely believe he has the potential to become a Top 10 GOAT player and pass Bird. If he doesn't get injured those two years (I really believe OKC wins the '13 title if he doesn't get hurt), the narrative changes and he's in the Top 20. He's still "only" 44th in Win Shares, "only" 33rd in VORP, I think he will get to where he is going. He's a situation where the RPAM stats are wrong. Some things that highlight his impact:

- > 60% TS every year since '12 on >25 ppg every year during that time span. That's amazing efficiency - better than Dirk - who got all kinds of love earlier.
- A strong playmaker on top of his deadly efficiency - hovering at or around 5 apg since '13; that's why his TOV rate hovers around 12.
- OKC falls from 2nd in offensive efficiency to 16th once he departs
- GS improves from -2.6 to -4.8 on Defense this year. I know some are saying his D Impact is questionable and his career advanced stats are middling but I believe that's due to the context of the team; the improvement when he arrived in GS is material.


Patrick Ewing anchored a defense that was best in the league for 3 straight years and Top 4 for nearly a decade. He forced MJ into a Game 7, and had MJ down 2-0 in '93. Everyone holds the '94 Finals over his head - what is forgotten is that he set the Finals blocks record in that series. He never won the big one and has some memorable defeats - but even in defeat he was a monster ('95 Gm 7 vs Indy, '97 Gm 7 vs. Miami, '92/'93 series vs. Chicago). He was what got them over the hump ('90 vs. Boston, '92 vs. Detroit) and he never played with another player in their prime who will sniff this list. It's unfortunate that he never quite got a chip - his offensive deficiencies had a way of showing up at the worst times.

Mikan: I need to reconcile the fact that at peak, for his era his impact is as great as anyone's - but the era he played in might get taken to the cleaners by the ACC - even after nutrition/medical benefits are applied. I have him slotted as my next Center to get my support after Ewing is in.

Point Guards: I need to do more work here; 1 or 2 more good years from Steph & he probably passes Pettit - but I'm not ready to put him in over Ewing - yet - nor do I feel that way about any of the other point guards. More to come.

Pettit: Very impressive for his era and for his era, I think you can definitely argue he did more than Durant. His era was just a lot weaker than Durant's. His prime held up well - no "hanging on" years - 10 really good seasons. Held his own against Baylor/West just fine, worked with Hagan to knock off Russell's Celtics (albeit Russell only played 4 games) and was the best player in that series - dropped 50 in the final game. He held up very well even after Chamberlain & Russell joined the league & the league became progressively more athletic. He's a little bit lucky to get his chip - but that's part of how things go - ultimately he did get the chip and he DID anchor the league's best offense until the Big O & West came around. He'd be my 2nd choice here except for 1) the whole 50's thing & 2) I don't put as much stock in titles won from that era unless you beat one of Pettit, Russell, Chamberlain, West/Baylor, Robertson to do so. And he didn't actually BEAT Russell - that series was tied - but Boston had a massive point differential edge and nearly won Games 5 & 6 which lead me to believe that the Celtics would've won. Otherwise, see my comments from Mikan - you might as well have won the ACC (even after adjusting for health/nutritional benefits). I'll be voting for him before Mikan because of how he held up in a league that had those elite players in it - whereas I don't even think Mikan does that well if he is transported just 10 years ahead.

1st choice: Kevin Durant
Alternate Selection: Patrick Ewing

What do you think of Realbigs take that Durant is overrated, there still a very good player, by reputation and that impact numbers suggest that he is a notch below the other superstars of a similar reputation and that the Warriors were more dependent on curry then he this season?

And I tend to think that the rent was the more crucial player and that the playoffs bore that out, when you seen the Warriors at their true potential with Durrant seemingly fully acclimated. Do you think that the numbers might be more a reflection of Durants unselfish nature and his natural deference to the existing team order? Or do you think there's something more to it?

[oldschooled]

Debate been going on Thomas and CP3 last thread and i just want to go OT and post this. Jordan just said Isaiah is the toughest to guard.

Watch on YouTube

[pandrade83]

What do you think of Realbigs take that Durant is overrated, there still a very good player, by reputation and that impact numbers suggest that he is a notch below the other superstars of a similar reputation and that the Warriors were more dependent on curry then he this season?

And I tend to think that the rent was the more crucial player and that the playoffs bore that out, when you seen the Warriors at their true potential with Durrant seemingly fully acclimated. Do you think that the numbers might be more a reflection of Durants unselfish nature and his natural deference to the existing team order? Or do you think there's something more to it?

I agree with your assessment of the playoffs. The playoffs bore out Durant's value and candidly I think that he's the best player on GSW when healthy. He was the best Warrior in the Finals. He had more WS/48 than Curry in both the regular season & playoffs. I get that RAPM doesn't love him - but there comes a point when you have to look at the "traditional" stats & what your eyes tell you. The more advanced metrics can give us new insights to complement the other stuff - but when they start telling you things like Isiah wasn't the best player on the Pistons from '87-'90 or Durant is overrated - when EVERYTHING else tells us the opposite - that's where things break down.

Sometimes the more advanced the algorithms can break down - and when you get to that point, that's where - like any data point - you have to question it.

[euroleague]

For #23, I'm going with:
Elgin Baylor
Alt: Cousy
HM: Curry
This is because of the arguments I've made in the past several threads. Cousy just changed the game so much, in a way no other PG really has. He re-imagined the passing game.

Curry - I value peak very highly, and if he quit now he'd have 2 MVPs, 2 rings, the best winning season ever, and many other records in addition to having changed the way the NBA views the 3 pointer. I think a GOAT level peak, and his impact on the game, are far better determinations of "greatness" than few more years of longevity putting up ok stats.

Players I'm considering for this tier: PG: Cousy, Paul, Isiah Thomas, Curry
SF: Baylor, Durant, Havlicek
C: Mikan


In terms of Durant:

So with regards to Durant, it just really bothers me that there is such a disconnect between his +/- and his box score stats, and that people for the most part tend to be infatuated by the latter. I pretty much only care about how much those numbers translate into impact, otherwise Adrian Dantley should go soon as well.

Now, I for one am not really surprised that Durant isn't a super high impact player (relative to other superstars...he's obviously a high impact player overall), because when I watch him, he doesn't seem to be imposing his will on the game on either side of the court, because he's not skilled enough offensively or defensively, and I'm pretty confident in believing that a player who scores 30+ PPG on 60%+ TS isn't necessarily having elite offensive impact, but that seems to be where most people are getting tripped up when it comes to Durant. His box score looks amazing, but the evidence shows that GS didn't even really improve all that much with him, and they still depend a lot more on Curry, even if he scored less on lower TS%.

Well, when your team wins 73 games without you, it's hard to imagine having a huge impact. Despite KD's style of play being pretty suitable for the warriors, it was clear he effected team chemistry and Curry's position as the clear leader - and Curry was GOAT level, so even though Durant is a ridiculously good scorer, it's hard to argue him as 1a/1b with Curry.

KD w/ Thunder should've beat the warriors, and would've won the championship in 2016 almost 100% if draymond was suspended game 5. It took Klay heroics to save the GSW, and Klay just didn't do that in the finals. Considering thunder were crushing GSW before that momentum, and GSW was crushing the cavs, it was quite a surprise the Thunder didn't take it home.

These ref decisions were super sketchy, and I have trouble awarding the Cavs that accolade of "title winners" in an honest way.

[therealbig3]

Except the eye test doesn't support Durant. When you say EVERYTHING points the other way...you mean PPG and TS%?

Because my eye test tells me that Durant still has issues in terms of his defensive awareness and his perimeter defense (he gets broken down off the dribble a lot). It also tells me that offensively, he's not breaking down the defense to anywhere near the degree of other offensive superstars, because of his relatively weak handle and mediocre passing ability. He's a fantastic scorer, and can put up a lot of points on high efficiency, but he tends to pick his spots, and doesn't really scare the defense into compromising, which means he's not making others around him that much better.

And it's not like it's one form of +/-, like JUST RAPM that says he's not having a huge impact...it's all forms of it. Consistently, over the years. In fact, I'd say the ONLY piece of data that supports Durant being as highly regarded as he is, are box score stats, while everything else says he's a borderline top 5 player, solidly within the top 10, but solidly behind guys like LeBron and Curry.

[therealbig3]

So with regards to Durant, it just really bothers me that there is such a disconnect between his +/- and his box score stats, and that people for the most part tend to be infatuated by the latter. I pretty much only care about how much those numbers translate into impact, otherwise Adrian Dantley should go soon as well.

And this has held true despite two different team circumstances and two different sets of teammates. His DRAPM wasn't even very impressive, even on GS, despite that being a consensus improvement for him this year.

Now, I for one am not really surprised that Durant isn't a super high impact player (relative to other superstars...he's obviously a high impact player overall), because when I watch him, he doesn't seem to be imposing his will on the game on either side of the court, because he's not skilled enough offensively or defensively, and I'm pretty confident in believing that a player who scores 30+ PPG on 60%+ TS isn't necessarily having elite offensive impact, but that seems to be where most people are getting tripped up when it comes to Durant. His box score looks amazing, but the evidence shows that GS didn't even really improve all that much with him, and they still depend a lot more on Curry, even if he scored less on lower TS%.

To me, Durant has empty stats to a degree. Not to the point where he's no longer a stud of a player, but to the point that I see him as a borderline top 5 player instead of the "arguably best in the league" player that seems to be the popular narrative now...I would take LeBron, Curry, and CP3 over Durant without much hesitation, and I think I would probably favor Kawhi as well, and I think Westbrook has a really strong case too.

With all that in mind, I really don't think he should go ahead of Ewing, Paul, Nash, or Curry. Durant just isn't an all time great offensive anchor, due to the severe lack of gravity he has compared to Paul/Nash/Curry, and his defense has become pretty wildly overrated...to me, I don't see him as much more than an above average defensive wing. Certainly nowhere close to Ewing's defensive impact, and Ewing himself was a really good offensive big.

I get what you're saying, but at the same time +/- isn't gospel truth for deciding player value either. GSW were an absolute machine before Durant joined so it's not great surprise that they were more comfortable when they could go back to the old core and not have to concern themselves with feeding a new superstar.

Durant's impact can be seen in the way the Thunder became appreciably worse as soon as he left. They dropped off from a team capable of going up 3-2 on GSW (and were one Klay Thompson explosion away from the Finals) to a one-man show with no chance to escape the 2nd round. Some of that could be attributed to OKC leaning too heavily on Westbrook when they could be better off with a balanced attack, I don't believe that myself but it's at least debatable, though I think even the most optimistic scenario featuring Kanter/Roberson/Adams with more touches wouldn't bridge much of that gap.

Dantley isn't a great comparison because in spite of his offensive similarity he was a laughable defender. Durant has always been at least respectable since entering his prime and last year better than that. In this case I think +/- just isn't telling the whole story.

I'm not using it as gospel. It strongly supports my eye test though. And nobody has really responded to that. Because it wasn't a secret that Durant had serious issues in the playoffs before when it came to facing increased defensive pressure and being forced into being more of a ball handler. That was just hidden these last playoffs with GS, because Curry took the bulk of the defensive attention.

Durant is still the same player he's always been, and that player is not someone I'd support over Curry or Paul or Ewing or Nash at this point.

And Dantley isn't really close to being an offensive superstar either, it wasn't just his defense holding him back. If Durant isn't creating a lot of separation from Dantley in your mind on that end of the floor, then that just proves my point even more, because the vast majority of Durant's impact comes on the offensive end.

[JordansBulls]

1st Vote: George Mikan - 2nd all time in Playoff PER and a 5x time champion
2nd Vote: Clyde Drexler

[trex_8063]

Same votes as last time for me:

23. Patrick Ewig
Alt vote: Elgin Baylor

After this I'm considering the old-school legends (Mikan, Pettit) and a mix of 90s/00s players (Nash, Kidd, Pippen, Drexler). Once we get more towards 30 the younger guys with great peaks but short resumes (relative to retired players anyway) will start gaining traction.

Why Ewing over the rest of the guys you mentioned?

[Winsome Gerbil]

23. Mikan
24. Pippen

And if the pattern holds, that means Pippen will get it this time.

[mikejames23]

Except the eye test doesn't support Durant. When you say EVERYTHING points the other way...you mean PPG and TS%?

Because my eye test tells me that Durant still has issues in terms of his defensive awareness and his perimeter defense (he gets broken down off the dribble a lot). It also tells me that offensively, he's not breaking down the defense to anywhere near the degree of other offensive superstars, because of his relatively weak handle and mediocre passing ability. He's a fantastic scorer, and can put up a lot of points on high efficiency, but he tends to pick his spots, and doesn't really scare the defense into compromising, which means he's not making others around him that much better.

And it's not like it's one form of +/-, like JUST RAPM that says he's not having a huge impact...it's all forms of it. Consistently, over the years. In fact, I'd say the ONLY piece of data that supports Durant being as highly regarded as he is, are box score stats, while everything else says he's a borderline top 5 player, solidly within the top 10, but solidly behind guys like LeBron and Curry.

Durant did really well with Westbrook missing large chunks of the season in 2014, though. OKC was #6 Offense, #3 SRS type team. I don't think we'll ever get to see him solo-ing again, but he's proven otherwise. You can build around him with an Ok cast and do just fine. I don't feel this is just a shot % type bias, in any sense. I'd post further but Durant is an established figure and I feel you would need more than RAPM and eye test (btw, what you posted is super subjective) to really make a case against him.

Edit:

Since you follow elgee, etc.

His combined WOWY runs in the last 2 years against 3 different controlled lineups: 102 games in the lineup at 9.4 SRS. 18 games out of the lineup, OKC was -0.39.

From 2016 Offseason. Significantly more to KD.

[Hornet Mania]

Same votes as last time for me:

23. Patrick Ewig
Alt vote: Elgin Baylor

After this I'm considering the old-school legends (Mikan, Pettit) and a mix of 90s/00s players (Nash, Kidd, Pippen, Drexler). Once we get more towards 30 the younger guys with great peaks but short resumes (relative to retired players anyway) will start gaining traction.

Why Ewing over the rest of the guys you mentioned?

Two-way big men who can be elite defensive anchors are incredibly valuable, and he's the best one left. I always thought Hakeem was a bit better than Admiral who was a bit better than Ewing, so it doesn't seem right to drop him much further than this. I think Pat gets underrated a bit as well because the Knicks were never able to break through.

Had they won a title at any point in the 90s his narrative would be dramatically different. I never liked his supporting cast, so I don't necessarily blame him for failing to get a ring. Ewing's defense allowed them to contend and without him the bully ball style simply wouldn't have worked.

All the guys I listed have problems. Baylor never won much, Mikan played in a very early era, Nash thrived in an up-tempo style but his teams could never maximize his impact while playing passable defense, Kidd couldn't shoot (until very late in his career), Pippen and Drexler were great swing men but not quite as valuable as an elite big. With so many question marks I prefer to side with the big man.

[Winsome Gerbil]

Actually, let me switch my alternate vote to Petit for a true respect your elders pairing:

23) Mikan
24) Petit

[Narigo]

Vote: Chris Paul
Second Vote: Artis Gilmore

Edit for later