RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#61 » by therealbig3 » Thu Aug 3, 2017 8:49 pm

Scizzup wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:
Fundamentals21 wrote:
Durant did really well with Westbrook missing large chunks of the season in 2014, though. OKC was #6 Offense, #3 SRS type team. I don't think we'll ever get to see him solo-ing again, but he's proven otherwise. You can build around him with an Ok cast and do just fine. I don't feel this is just a shot % type bias, in any sense. I'd post further but Durant is an established figure and I feel you would need more than RAPM and eye test (btw, what you posted is super subjective) to really make a case against him.

Edit:

Since you follow elgee, etc.



From 2016 Offseason. Significantly more to KD.




You point to the 2014 RS as proof that KD could do great things without Westbrook...but then I'd point to the playoffs the year before without Westbrook, and how much KD and the Thunder struggled.


Wait, you think the 2013 playoffs series vs the DPOY/TA/Tayshawn was an indictment on him w/o Russ? He put up 29/10/7 with Perkins/Thabo starting. If he had Steven Adams instead of Perkins that series goes 6/7. If Clippers had advanced a good chance okc wins that series with Clippers wing defense.


I'm not saying it's an indictment, it's in response to people wanting to praise his 2014 RS without Westbrook, as if to show that he was able to get things done without Westbrook. When the playoffs showed a different story.

And yeah, I'm interested in seeing how he does against an elite defense in the playoffs. Who cares if he's able to light up a weak perimeter defense like the Clippers? What does that tell us about Durant exactly?
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#62 » by therealbig3 » Thu Aug 3, 2017 8:58 pm

pandrade83 wrote:
Scizzup wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:


You point to the 2014 RS as proof that KD could do great things without Westbrook...but then I'd point to the playoffs the year before without Westbrook, and how much KD and the Thunder struggled.


Wait, you think the 2013 playoffs series vs the DPOY/TA/Tayshawn was an indictment on him w/o Russ? He put up 29/10/7 with Perkins/Thabo starting. If he had Steven Adams instead of Perkins that series goes 6/7. If Clippers had advanced a good chance okc wins that series with Clippers wing defense.



Love this. If this is your shining example that Durant can't carry the load alone, I don't really think there's a leg to stand on. Those supporting casts have been so fragile that in order to beat a good team, you need strong performances out of both Westbrook & Durant.


You kind of want it both ways on this one. First of all, I was responding to Durant's performance during the 2014 RS being held up as some shining example of what he can do without Westbrook. There have been countless examples of stars and teams overachieving during the RS and getting exposed during the playoffs. That's what the 2014 Thunder would have been if Westbrook didn't come back for the playoffs.

Second of all, you're bringing this up to defend Durant, but then mentioning how the Thunder fell to 16th from 2nd offensively once he left, as if Westbrook wasn't working with a bunch of non-shooters and borderline NBA players in Durant's absence.

Furthermore, with regards to Durant not being a reliable playoff performer...I mean, he underperformed in 3 straight playoff runs (2013, 2014, and 2016). If you want to give him a pass in 2013 because of Westbrook's absence, that's fine...that still leaves 2014 and 2016 in which it would be revisionist history to act like he played well. Westbrook outplayed him in both of those playoff runs.

2012 and 2017 are really the only examples of Durant playing great in the playoffs...and in 2017 he was playing with an all-time stacked team in which he wasn't even receiving the brunt of the defensive attention. Even in 2012, I thought he had a disappointing Finals, as his lack of being able to do anything other than put up a lot of points efficiently was exposed. Even in the way he generates points, he's not really doing it in a way that draws a lot of gravity and creates opportunities for teammates on the level of other offensive anchors.

With CP3, his issues are his injuries. That's a fair reason to take Durant, because CP3 is playing hurt all the time. But when he's been healthy, you really can't knock him specifically for much. It's really easy to see that CP3 is playing really well, the team tends to die without him on the court, and his team just gets overwhelmed at the end. With Durant, I can specifically point to things he's not doing well enough, and that if he played better, his team wouldn't have lost (2014 vs the Spurs, 2016 vs the Warriors).
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#63 » by 2klegend » Thu Aug 3, 2017 9:28 pm

It's safe to say by now that Chris Paul is the most efficient PG in the game, which back up by stat. His stat alone put him pretty high on the list. If playoff woe was the reason to ignore him, then let talk about the playoff situation.

CP3 may be the most unfortunate godly PG. Whether it's either him or one of core teammates suffered an injury, the Clippers never seem to gel at the right time. He truly never had a fair playoff experience since 2014. Despite that unfortunate situation, CP3 maintains his playoff average as his REG which is pretty impressive.

1st Pick: Chris Paul
2nd Pick: John Havlicek
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#64 » by Scizzup » Thu Aug 3, 2017 9:41 pm

therealbig3 wrote:
Scizzup wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:


You point to the 2014 RS as proof that KD could do great things without Westbrook...but then I'd point to the playoffs the year before without Westbrook, and how much KD and the Thunder struggled.


Wait, you think the 2013 playoffs series vs the DPOY/TA/Tayshawn was an indictment on him w/o Russ? He put up 29/10/7 with Perkins/Thabo starting. If he had Steven Adams instead of Perkins that series goes 6/7. If Clippers had advanced a good chance okc wins that series with Clippers wing defense.


I'm not saying it's an indictment, it's in response to people wanting to praise his 2014 RS without Westbrook, as if to show that he was able to get things done without Westbrook. When the playoffs showed a different story.

And yeah, I'm interested in seeing how he does against an elite defense in the playoffs. Who cares if he's able to light up a weak perimeter defense like the Clippers? What does that tell us about Durant exactly?


yea he clearly underachieved 2016, I only quoted the 13. Grizz are a matchup nightmare for most teams when they are able to slow the game down (13 was their best version). Thabo is okay even though teams would cheat of him but Perkins was absolutely horrible offensively. playing half court against Grizzlies without great shooters player and a big part of your offense missing would hurt any player. mov/srs when he plays speaks for itself.

btw I am not a voter so I won't reply derail.
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Mikan is due, Pettit is too, that's how I'll vote, how about you? 

Post#65 » by JoeMalburg » Thu Aug 3, 2017 10:04 pm

Give me George Mikan as my primary vote. Getting used to saying that, hoping this will be the last time.

It seems like it comes down to "era transportability" and how much of a determent you view his playing in the era he did as.

I like the argument that non of his peers have popped up yet and are unlikely to anytime soon. I tend to believe I view the pre-shot clock guys more favorable than most and even I have to admit I don't have Cousy until the thirties, Arizin and Schayes until the 40's and the other early NBA elites like Neil Johnston, Bill Sharman, Easy Ed and co. until after the century mark.

But we should note that it is just a eight year window from the dawn of the league until the retirement of Mikan and the age of the 24 second shot clock. Regardless, the only major objection I have to anyone who isn't voting for Mikan yet is if you're just ruling those guys out because of the era, and I think a few voters are. The project expressly states that these players are to be considered and if you haven't done your due diligence in terms of research, you're doing a disservice to the results.

A few things about Mikan that i feel are getting lost in the discussion and which actually bode well for him in terms of how he'd have fared in other eras.

1) Mikan was a superior athlete and a player of considerable all-around skill. He developed an ambidextrous hook shot, the preferred weapon at the time, had good ball handling and passing skills for a big man and was a near 80% foul shooter for his regular and postseason career, a feat today's big men still struggle to achieve. Here's a couple of early newspaper accounts detail Big George grace and dexterity despite his imposing frame.

"Image

And the great Joe Lapchick, former Original Cetlics and the first great Knicks coach opined as follows...

Image

This is important because it shows a refinement of skill level and overall athleticism that relative to his era was perceived as exceptional. Mikan was not some lumbering oaf who simply out muscled and out-reached his pint-sized peers, he was exactly what we have come to find most great big men in NBA history to be, a much better athlete than people his size who developed an essential skill set.

2) He also was the type of ferocious competitor that we typically associate with the all-time greats. Mikan was such an ironman that he played with broken bones in all four of his limbs at some point in his career. And he would do anything to win. Red Auerbach began his coaching career against Mikan and remarked sometime in the 1970's "If he played in the NBA today or tomorrow he'd be a great player. He had the competitive drive to be a great player. He was a tough then and he'd be a tough guy now." A decade later he added, "That man would be a stickout anytime, anywhere, under any conditions."

3) We wasn't just a winner in the NBA. It's been noted that Mikan was also a star in the NBA for two franchises in his first two years and that he was a stud in college and that he was the dominant force in the only integrated elite pro basketball prior to 1950, the World Pro Basketball Tournament and exhibition games against the Harlem Globetrotters and New York Rens. Mikan earned the respect of opponents and fans of all races by playing his ass off and winning a whole lot. Here's former Rens coach Bob Douglass on Big George. "George (Mikan) was the reason we wanted to play them so badly. He was the best and we wanted to measure ourselves against the best. He gave us back everything we gave him...there was a lot of mutual respect and any bad blood had to do with wanting to win the game, not hurt the other man."

Alternate vote: Bob Pettit

More on him when I actually vote for him. But suffice to say he has the resume that needs to get recognition before much longer. Almost out of guys elite guys who won a ring as the clear cut best player and won at least one MVP. They need to be off the board before much longer or someone's got some spalnin' to do.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#66 » by pandrade83 » Thu Aug 3, 2017 11:00 pm

therealbig3 wrote:
pandrade83 wrote:
Scizzup wrote:
Wait, you think the 2013 playoffs series vs the DPOY/TA/Tayshawn was an indictment on him w/o Russ? He put up 29/10/7 with Perkins/Thabo starting. If he had Steven Adams instead of Perkins that series goes 6/7. If Clippers had advanced a good chance okc wins that series with Clippers wing defense.



Love this. If this is your shining example that Durant can't carry the load alone, I don't really think there's a leg to stand on. Those supporting casts have been so fragile that in order to beat a good team, you need strong performances out of both Westbrook & Durant.


You kind of want it both ways on this one. First of all, I was responding to Durant's performance during the 2014 RS being held up as some shining example of what he can do without Westbrook. There have been countless examples of stars and teams overachieving during the RS and getting exposed during the playoffs. That's what the 2014 Thunder would have been if Westbrook didn't come back for the playoffs.

Second of all, you're bringing this up to defend Durant, but then mentioning how the Thunder fell to 16th from 2nd offensively once he left, as if Westbrook wasn't working with a bunch of non-shooters and borderline NBA players in Durant's absence.

Furthermore, with regards to Durant not being a reliable playoff performer...I mean, he underperformed in 3 straight playoff runs (2013, 2014, and 2016). If you want to give him a pass in 2013 because of Westbrook's absence, that's fine...that still leaves 2014 and 2016 in which it would be revisionist history to act like he played well. Westbrook outplayed him in both of those playoff runs.

2012 and 2017 are really the only examples of Durant playing great in the playoffs...and in 2017 he was playing with an all-time stacked team in which he wasn't even receiving the brunt of the defensive attention. Even in 2012, I thought he had a disappointing Finals, as his lack of being able to do anything other than put up a lot of points efficiently was exposed. Even in the way he generates points, he's not really doing it in a way that draws a lot of gravity and creates opportunities for teammates on the level of other offensive anchors.

With CP3, his issues are his injuries. That's a fair reason to take Durant, because CP3 is playing hurt all the time. But when he's been healthy, you really can't knock him specifically for much. It's really easy to see that CP3 is playing really well, the team tends to die without him on the court, and his team just gets overwhelmed at the end. With Durant, I can specifically point to things he's not doing well enough, and that if he played better, his team wouldn't have lost (2014 vs the Spurs, 2016 vs the Warriors).


There's 3 playoff knocks on CP3 I have:
1) you mentioned it - inability to be available at 100% in the playoffs.
2) He rarely has a bad game in an elimination/closeout setting - I've discussed this & praised him for it. That said - he never has that signature game in the playoffs that you can point to - it's almost like he doesn't have another gear.
3) He gets outplayed by quality opposing point guards in the playoffs frequently ('12 vs Parker, '14 vs. Curry and then by Westbrook, '15 vs. Harden). At some point, I need him to outplay an all-star point guard.

So on Durant - you mention '14 & '16 - yes - there's things he could've done better. But if 30-9-4 ('14) & 28-7-3 (full disclosure: Corrected Version) ('16) while scoring pretty efficiently is underperforming - I'm not sure what else to tell you - other than that really spells out just how good he is. We're voting on player #23 here, not player #3; the warts are pretty small compared to who's left.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#67 » by andrewww » Fri Aug 4, 2017 1:45 am

Vote: Kevin Durant
Alternate: Stephen Curry


I think both KD and Curry are simply better, more impactful (at winning) than their counterparts like Nash or Paul. Mikan played in a weak era that wouldn't translate into today's game imo. Bob Pettit has perhaps the most complete resume, but as an individual player I think a couple of guys have a better case at this juncture.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#68 » by trex_8063 » Fri Aug 4, 2017 3:58 am

Well, I'm sorta gonna switch gears from how I thought I was going to vote in this thread. I've been looking at Patrick Ewing a lot of late, and his resume is damn impressive. And how much more would be influenced if he had a title attached to it? He came awfully close in '94, going the distance with Hakeem and the Rockets and losing a G7 by just six points (a series in which the Knicks actually out-scored the Rockets by 5 pts, too, btw).
Also of interest is that in the six seasons that Jordan and the Bulls won the title, only TWO teams ever forced them to a game 7: the '98 Pacers in the ECF, and the '92 Knicks (ECSF).
And the Knicks also got the one other improbably trip to the finals in '99 on the strength of some remarkable playoff defense. Ewing got injured and actually missed all of the finals (as well as most of the ECF), but fwiw, it was the earlier rounds where their defense was the most impressive. Relative to the competition faced they were -6.3 DRTG in the 1st round, -11.2 DRTG in the semis, -6.7 DRTG in the ECF (Ewing played in 2 of 6 games in that series); -5.1 DRTG in finals.

It's really an impressive resume of playoff success when we consider---as pandrade83 mentioned---that there isn't a single teammate he had in those runs who's likely to even get a mention in this project. In an all-time sense, the best teammates he ever had in his prime were guys like Mark Jackson, Charles Oakley, and Anthony Mason.

Few other fun tidbits:
*There have only ever been eight team defenses that were -8.0 rDRTG or better for the season.......TWO of them were anchored by Patrick Ewing (and fwiw, ZERO by Hakeem, Robinson, or Mutombo; technically zero by Ben Wallace, too, though likely only because Sheed didn't join the team till mid-season).
**We have DRAPM for '97 and after (late prime and post-prime for both he and Hakeem): best 3 years combined or best 5 years both have Ewing slightly higher.
***If include colts18's NPI rs-only RAPM (or APM??) for '94-'96, we have impact data dipping well back into their respective primes. Best 3-years, 5-years, or 7-years of combined RAPM again have Ewing rated slightly over Hakeem.


While obviously not as offensively fluid and resilient as someone like Hakeem (or any of the other centers we've voted in), Ewing was obviously far from an offensive slouch. He meanwhile is, imo, an often underrated defensive anchor (because he played the entirety of his career in the shadows of Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo [also Eaton] at his position), and had some pretty excellent longevity.


So I'm switching my top pick to him.
1st vote: Patrick Ewing
2nd vote: Chris Paul
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#69 » by trex_8063 » Fri Aug 4, 2017 4:10 am

Thru post #68:

George Mikan - 5 (JoeMalburg, JordansBulls, penbeast0, Winsome Gerbil, wojoaderge)
Bob Pettit - 3 (Dr Positivity, Pablo Novi, scabbarista)
Chris Paul - 3 (2klegend, Bad Gatorade, Narigo)
Patrick Ewing - 2 (Hornet Mania, trex_8063)
Elgin Baylor - 2 (euroleague, Outside)
Kevin Durant - 2 (pandrade83, andrewww)
Stephen Curry - 1 (oldschooled)


Thread will be open for anywhere from another 14-20 hours (kinda depending on when I have the time/opportunity to tally and reboot tomorrow afternoon).

eminence wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

Clyde Frazier wrote:.

PaulieWal wrote:.

Colbinii wrote:.

Texas Chuck wrote:.

drza wrote:.

Dr Spaceman wrote:.

fpliii wrote:.

euroleague wrote:.

pandrade83 wrote:.

Hornet Mania wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

SactoKingsFan wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

JordansBulls wrote:.

RSCS3_ wrote:.

BasketballFan7 wrote:.

micahclay wrote:.

ardee wrote:.

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MyUniBroDavis wrote:.

kayess wrote:.

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Jaivl wrote:.

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andrewww wrote:.

colts18 wrote:.

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Cyrusman122000 wrote:.

Winsome Gerbil wrote:.

Narigo wrote:.

wojoaderge wrote:.

TrueLAfan wrote:.

90sAllDecade wrote:.

Outside wrote:.

scabbarista wrote:.

janmagn wrote:.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:.

Arman_tanzarian wrote:.

oldschooled wrote:.

Pablo Novi wrote:.

john248 wrote:.

mdonnelly1989 wrote:.

Senior wrote:.

twolves97 wrote:.

CodeBreaker wrote:.

JoeMalburg wrote:.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#70 » by RCM88x » Fri Aug 4, 2017 4:19 am

I feel like I'll be posting my vote for Pippen for a while... hopefully that will give me time to develop it further!

Vote: Scottie Pippen

In my opinion the GOAT perimeter defender, and one of the best passing Forwards of all time. Pippen posted an impressive prime run of 9 seasons from '90 to '98, averaging a BPM of 6.1 and a WS/48 of .173. He ranks an impressive 13th all time in career playoff WS, 18th in career average playoff BPM, and an insane 5th all time in playoff VORP.

In my opinion, probably the idea 2nd option. Doesn't need the ball to have an impact and when he does, is a 3 way threat to drive, pass or shoot.

2nd Vote: George Mikan
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#71 » by 2klegend » Fri Aug 4, 2017 4:22 am

George Mikan only played for 7 seasons. Technically 6 1/2 considered the missed games. Why him?
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#72 » by Pablo Novi » Fri Aug 4, 2017 4:26 am

trex_8063 wrote:Thru post #68:

George Mikan - 5 (JoeMalburg, JordansBulls, penbeast0, Winsome Gerbil, wojoaderge)
Bob Pettit - 3 (Dr Positivity, Pablo Novi, scabbarista)
Chris Paul - 3 (2klegend, Bad Gatorade, Narigo)
Patrick Ewing - 2 (Hornet Mania, trex_8063)
Elgin Baylor - 2 (euroleague, Outside)
Kevin Durant - 2 (pandrade83, andrewww)
Stephen Curry - 1 (oldschooled)


Thread will be open for anywhere from another 14-20 hours (kinda depending on when I have the time/opportunity to tally and reboot tomorrow afternoon).

This is a pretty decent list of candidates for GOAT #23 (it'd be better if Cousy was garnering any traction).
I've been voting since around GOAT #7 or #8 and, iirc, I haven't cast my VOTE for anyone (yet) who actually won that round.
Hmmm. (lol)

My main argument for such as: Pettit, Baylor, Cousy and Mikan is that they had decidedly more "Great Years" - as defined by selections to the ALL-League 1st-Teams and 2nd-Teams.
In the cases of: CP3, Ewing, Durant & Curry - they CLEARLY didn't dominate their own positions during their careers (yet) to, imo, merit as much consideration as: Pettit, Baylor, Cousy & Mikan.

Also, so far, we haven't selected a single player who played that far back - that strikes me as decidedly unbalanced, decades-wise.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#73 » by Lost92Bricks » Fri Aug 4, 2017 4:49 am

Doctor MJ wrote:I'll add this: Paul has had some great on-court ORtgs and I think we've at times misunderstood them. Not that Paul wasn't great, but Doc Rivers really, really just likes to play the same lineups over and over again and it makes for some very impressive numbers along these lines. Now, it doesn't necessarily inflate Paul's +/- numbers to be clear, and those numbers are more important, but I remember on-court ORtg being a big selling point for Paul in prior debates along these lines in the past, and the Doc Rivers factor typically wasn't really part of that conversation at the time.

But they were high even before Doc.

2013: 116.5 (highest in the league)
2012: 113.5 (3rd highest in the league)
2008: 115.2 (6th highest in the league)
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#74 » by Clyde Frazier » Fri Aug 4, 2017 5:11 am

trex_8063 wrote:Well, I'm sorta gonna switch gears from how I thought I was going to vote in this thread. I've been looking at Patrick Ewing a lot of late, and his resume is damn impressive. And how much more would be influenced if he had a title attached to it? He came awfully close in '94, going the distance with Hakeem and the Rockets and losing a G7 by just six points (a series in which the Knicks actually out-scored the Rockets by 5 pts, too, btw).
Also of interest is that in the six seasons that Jordan and the Bulls won the title, only TWO teams ever forced them to a game 7: the '98 Pacers in the ECF, and the '92 Knicks (ECSF).
And the Knicks also got the one other improbably trip to the finals in '99 on the strength of some remarkable playoff defense. Ewing got injured and actually missed all of the finals (as well as most of the ECF), but fwiw, it was the earlier rounds where their defense was the most impressive. Relative to the competition faced they were -6.3 DRTG in the 1st round, -11.2 DRTG in the semis, -6.7 DRTG in the ECF (Ewing played in 2 of 6 games in that series); -5.1 DRTG in finals.

It's really an impressive resume of playoff success when we consider---as pandrade83 mentioned---that there isn't a single teammate he had in those runs who's likely to even get a mention in this project. In an all-time sense, the best teammates he ever had in his prime were guys like Mark Jackson, Charles Oakley, and Anthony Mason.

Few other fun tidbits:
*There have only ever been eight team defenses that were -8.0 rDRTG or better for the season.......TWO of them were anchored by Patrick Ewing (and fwiw, ZERO by Hakeem, Robinson, or Mutombo; technically zero by Ben Wallace, too, though likely only because Sheed didn't join the team till mid-season).
**We have DRAPM for '97 and after (late prime and post-prime for both he and Hakeem): best 3 years combined or best 5 years both have Ewing slightly higher.
***If include colts18's NPI rs-only RAPM (or APM??) for '94-'96, we have impact data dipping well back into their respective primes. Best 3-years, 5-years, or 7-years of combined RAPM again have Ewing rated slightly over Hakeem.


While obviously not as offensively fluid and resilient as someone like Hakeem (or any of the other centers we've voted in), Ewing was obviously far from an offensive slouch. He meanwhile is, imo, an often underrated defensive anchor (because he played the entirety of his career in the shadows of Hakeem, Robinson, Mutombo [also Eaton] at his position), and had some pretty excellent longevity.


So I'm switching my top pick to him.
1st vote: Patrick Ewing
2nd vote: Chris Paul


Vote 1 - Patrick Ewing

Vote 2 - Bob Pettit

Piggybacking on trex's post...

Those knicks teams were built on defense, and while there’s no question ewing had great defensive players around him, he was the anchor nonetheless. NY’s defensive RTG ranks from 92-99:

92 - 2nd
93 - 1st
94 - 1st
95 - 1st
96 - 4th
97 - 2nd
98 - 4th
99 - 4th

Top 5 defense for 8 straight seasons and best in the league for 3 straight? That’s damn impressive any way you slice it. 92 was riley’s first year as head coach, and he found a way to manage all these strong personalities (mason, oakley, mcdaniel, starks, harper, etc.) and help them channel that towards performance on the court.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#75 » by euroleague » Fri Aug 4, 2017 5:14 am

Pablo Novi wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:Thru post #68:

George Mikan - 5 (JoeMalburg, JordansBulls, penbeast0, Winsome Gerbil, wojoaderge)
Bob Pettit - 3 (Dr Positivity, Pablo Novi, scabbarista)
Chris Paul - 3 (2klegend, Bad Gatorade, Narigo)
Patrick Ewing - 2 (Hornet Mania, trex_8063)
Elgin Baylor - 2 (euroleague, Outside)
Kevin Durant - 2 (pandrade83, andrewww)
Stephen Curry - 1 (oldschooled)


Thread will be open for anywhere from another 14-20 hours (kinda depending on when I have the time/opportunity to tally and reboot tomorrow afternoon).

This is a pretty decent list of candidates for GOAT #23 (it'd be better if Cousy was garnering any traction).
I've been voting since around GOAT #7 or #8 and, iirc, I haven't cast my VOTE for anyone (yet) who actually won that round.
Hmmm. (lol)

My main argument for such as: Pettit, Baylor, Cousy and Mikan is that they had decidedly more "Great Years" - as defined by selections to the ALL-League 1st-Teams and 2nd-Teams.
In the cases of: CP3, Ewing, Durant & Curry - they CLEARLY didn't dominate their own positions during their careers (yet) to, imo, merit as much consideration as: Pettit, Baylor, Cousy & Mikan.

Also, so far, we haven't selected a single player who played that far back - that strikes me as decidedly unbalanced, decades-wise.


Durant has dominated his position for quite a while in terms of Forward/MVP consideration. LBJ has been, in most people's eyes, the best SF - but there's no reason to penalize Isiah Thomas for playing in Magic's era, or Bill Russell for playing in Wilt's.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#76 » by Joao Saraiva » Fri Aug 4, 2017 8:18 am

My 1st vote goes do Kevin Durant.

Several seasons at MVP level, competing with LBJ for that since at least 2013.

More seasons than Curry, and since I believe he's the better player I'd give him a very slight edge prime and peak wise, but obviously a bigger one in longevity.

Has won both awards, finals MVP and MVP.

My 2nd vote goes to CP3. I still believe he has the edge over Curry.


Mikan would be my next choice. Maybe I won't need to vote for him after all. Still think he lacks a bit of longevity, despite the domination in his own era.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#77 » by rebirthoftheM » Fri Aug 4, 2017 12:13 pm

therealbig3 wrote:

And I feel like this is the issue with people that ask for more than just +/- for proof of why a guy with big box scores isn't as good as people think...I give my opinion of Durant's game in a qualitative way that's not even that controversial, since it's been the main criticisms of him for most of his career really, and he's not really any better today, and I get a "well that's just super subjective" back...yeah, it's subjective, but what else do you want? I gave my subjective analysis for why Durant isn't having elite impact out there, despite what the box score says. It's backed up majorly by +/- data (again, not just RAPM, but lineup-specific numbers as well).



I don't mean to distract away from thins here, but you were railing on about Durant all through the finals, and dedicated many posts to it. Clearly it irks you and you do have an investment in critiquing how people view him. What ends up happening in these situation is that there will be a push back from the other side, who then see this and believe you are only emphasizing and constructing narratives that support your pov.

Same applies with the Durant crew. Rinse and repeat. It becomes a battles of narratives, stories and "I value X, you value Y".

For instance, someone earlier just noted how Durant contributed pretty well to the Warriors in the PS. This confirms what many of us saw in the finals in particular, where the Warriors actually faced a legit opponent. KD's presence for instance totally nullified Lebron's ability to roam on defense. It compelled LBJ to be engaged man to man on pretty much every possession, and to expend energy on that end due to Durant's threat. They ended up going to RJ for this very reason and the results were not good at all. This hurt the Cavs- majorly on the defensive end. Durant also gave them a reliable scoring option in the half-court and was pretty good on defense for the first 2 games of the series. His play-making in the series was also pretty good (and yes, I know he looks better on the Warriors on this front because of the talent). He shouldered a lot of duties that made his team succeed, and IMO without him, LBJ is sitting with his 4th ring.

He also helped Curry in particularly be as productive as he could be by shouldering some of the responsibilities either directly or indirectly.

To some, this is a testament to his ceiling raising capabilities. That you can drop Durant on a talented team and he will elevate them, instead of taking away from their talented players. To others, his Warriors play will forever be tarnished because of the Warriors 2016 RS stuff and the fact that they beat him in the PS. To each their own I guess, though I would firmly put myself in the category who was proven wrong by Durant.
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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#78 » by drza » Fri Aug 4, 2017 12:34 pm

pandrade83 wrote:So on Durant - you mention '14 & '16 - yes - there's things he could've done better. But if 30-8-9 ('14) & 28-6-7 ('16) while scoring pretty efficiently is underperforming - I'm not sure what else to tell you - other than that really spells out just how good he is. We're voting on player #23 here, not player #3; the warts are pretty small compared to who's left.


I've been following along when I could with the Paul, and now Paul/Durant discussions. For the most part just in absorb mode, but I did notice the underlined above and wanted to clarify because those assist numbers seemed way high from my memory. So, I looked it up.

In 2014, Durant averaged 29.6 pts (57% TS), 8.9 reb, 3.9 assists, 3.8 TO, +7.1 on/off +/-
In 2016, Durant averaged 28.4 pts (54% TS), 7.1 reb, 3.3 assists, 3.6 TO, +6.0 on/off +/-

Those assist numbers clearly don't jive with what you wrote. Looking at how the stat columns are laid out on B-R, is it possible that you accidentally used the DRB number in place of assists?

As far as the comp, if it's Durant vs Paul, then I tend to be on the side that Paul has consistently, throughout his career, including in the playoffs, been a bigger impact player than Durant. Interesting questions have been brought up as to whether Paul's style places a limit on his upside, or whether his control of his teams is so large that it makes him look relatively better while limiting the team's upside. And I think those are discussions worth having, and thoughts like that have started to sway me in some comparisons (e.g. Paul vs Kobe in 2008). But against Durant, those points are less convincing to me because Paul's level of impact has just been consistently well beyond anything that we've seen from Durant in their careers. Paul has issues with health in the playoffs, but when he plays I've been more impressed with him than with Durant in the postseason as well.

As far as this voting slot, among those that have received votes so far my leaning would be Ewing and Paul as my frontrunners (and I haven't even had the chance to weigh in on Ewing yet). Joe's most recent Mikan post made me feel something, though, so I'm marinating on him as well. But I'm not sure that I'll be able to get back to this thread again before voting, and I want to have something on the board. So, I'll vote:

1st: Ewing
2nd: Paul

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Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#79 » by dhsilv2 » Fri Aug 4, 2017 1:18 pm

therealbig3 wrote:So with regards to Durant, it just really bothers me that there is such a disconnect between his +/- and his box score stats, and that people for the most part tend to be infatuated by the latter. I pretty much only care about how much those numbers translate into impact, otherwise Adrian Dantley should go soon as well.

And this has held true despite two different team circumstances and two different sets of teammates. His DRAPM wasn't even very impressive, even on GS, despite that being a consensus improvement for him this year.

Now, I for one am not really surprised that Durant isn't a super high impact player (relative to other superstars...he's obviously a high impact player overall), because when I watch him, he doesn't seem to be imposing his will on the game on either side of the court, because he's not skilled enough offensively or defensively, and I'm pretty confident in believing that a player who scores 30+ PPG on 60%+ TS isn't necessarily having elite offensive impact, but that seems to be where most people are getting tripped up when it comes to Durant. His box score looks amazing, but the evidence shows that GS didn't even really improve all that much with him, and they still depend a lot more on Curry, even if he scored less on lower TS%.

To me, Durant has empty stats to a degree. Not to the point where he's no longer a stud of a player, but to the point that I see him as a borderline top 5 player instead of the "arguably best in the league" player that seems to be the popular narrative now...I would take LeBron, Curry, and CP3 over Durant without much hesitation, and I think I would probably favor Kawhi as well, and I think Westbrook has a really strong case too.

With all that in mind, I really don't think he should go ahead of Ewing, Paul, Nash, or Curry. Durant just isn't an all time great offensive anchor, due to the severe lack of gravity he has compared to Paul/Nash/Curry, and his defense has become pretty wildly overrated...to me, I don't see him as much more than an above average defensive wing. Certainly nowhere close to Ewing's defensive impact, and Ewing himself was a really good offensive big.


Do you think Ewing was a top 5 level player for much of his career? 6 times he was top 5 in MVP (never higher than 4 though). Not a single "advanced box score stats" has him ever as a top 5 guy.

I'm not seeing why Ewing is ahead of KD on your list here. The others I can see why you'd rank them over, both with awards and stats. But KD was also the consensus best player on a Thunder team that beat a spurs team on a record level win streak and made the finals, along with an MVP, so I could use that against Chris Paul. Longevity here doesn't really favor Ewing or Paul by much if any either.
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Re: RE: Re: RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #23 

Post#80 » by janmagn » Fri Aug 4, 2017 1:21 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:So with regards to Durant, it just really bothers me that there is such a disconnect between his +/- and his box score stats, and that people for the most part tend to be infatuated by the latter. I pretty much only care about how much those numbers translate into impact, otherwise Adrian Dantley should go soon as well.

And this has held true despite two different team circumstances and two different sets of teammates. His DRAPM wasn't even very impressive, even on GS, despite that being a consensus improvement for him this year.

Now, I for one am not really surprised that Durant isn't a super high impact player (relative to other superstars...he's obviously a high impact player overall), because when I watch him, he doesn't seem to be imposing his will on the game on either side of the court, because he's not skilled enough offensively or defensively, and I'm pretty confident in believing that a player who scores 30+ PPG on 60%+ TS isn't necessarily having elite offensive impact, but that seems to be where most people are getting tripped up when it comes to Durant. His box score looks amazing, but the evidence shows that GS didn't even really improve all that much with him, and they still depend a lot more on Curry, even if he scored less on lower TS%.

To me, Durant has empty stats to a degree. Not to the point where he's no longer a stud of a player, but to the point that I see him as a borderline top 5 player instead of the "arguably best in the league" player that seems to be the popular narrative now...I would take LeBron, Curry, and CP3 over Durant without much hesitation, and I think I would probably favor Kawhi as well, and I think Westbrook has a really strong case too.

With all that in mind, I really don't think he should go ahead of Ewing, Paul, Nash, or Curry. Durant just isn't an all time great offensive anchor, due to the severe lack of gravity he has compared to Paul/Nash/Curry, and his defense has become pretty wildly overrated...to me, I don't see him as much more than an above average defensive wing. Certainly nowhere close to Ewing's defensive impact, and Ewing himself was a really good offensive big.


Do you think Ewing was a top 5 level player for much of his career? 6 times he was top 5 in MVP (never higher than 4 though). Not a single "advanced box score stats" has him ever as a top 5 guy.

I'm not seeing why Ewing is ahead of KD on your list here. The others I can see why you'd rank them over, both with awards and stats. But KD was also the consensus best player on a Thunder team that beat a spurs team on a record level win streak and made the finals, along with an MVP, so I could use that against Chris Paul. Longevity here doesn't really favor Ewing or Paul by much if any either.

Westbrook Harden Ibaka>any supporting cast Ewing ever had

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