esqtvd wrote:og15 wrote:esqtvd wrote:
And Doc went for it. What would we be saying if he'd traded Jamal for prospects and late-round picks, say back in 2014, and Jamal went on to win 6th Man of the Year with some other contender? He closed the CP/BG window prematurely, trying to save his job by feathering his long-term nest.
Or he refused to admit his gambles were wrong and kept trotting out Spencer Hawes or the Knucklehead Twins [Josh Smith and Lance Stephenson]?
Doc was so screwed either way, if you had your knives out for him. He was brought in to win and win now, except, as Justin rightly notes, Blake and Chris and DJ just didn't have the critical mass of Garnett, Pierce and Ray Allen. Plus we were capped out and the draft pick cupboard was in the red.
We also do not know what Doc tried, or if Sterling nixed it, or any of 100 things behind the scenes that Justin has alluded to from his high orbit above Planet LAC. Doc has alluded to deals he was not permitted to make, as well. You can call him a liar or a BSer, but that is not established as fact. You lack the required background information. You quote Michael Eaves.
NB: For the sake of clarity, I omitted the parts of OG's post here that I'd joust with, but he makes the key point that is often neglected: Even best-case, later draft picks take 2-3 years to be actually playoff rotation-worthy, and by then they're headed for at least restricted free agency, and they're gonna get paid. This is the equation.
Anyone who's familiar with economics knows about the information question. The Spurs built a dynasty on scooping up foreigners but now everybody is. There are no secrets anymore. There are no bargains.
Basically, you need to develop and maintain a team culture--of course a winning culture--to attract anyone who has a choice where to play. But not just a winning culture. If your desirable free agents want out, they're out and gone. Kyrie is like, get me the f*** out of here and I don't blame him. Winning isn't everything, at least not here in professional sports in the 21st century.
I'm not criticizing the idea of going for win now. I'm criticizing the win more moves that were actually made. Ask any poster here, nothing I am saying is in hindsight. I criticized signing Mullens and Jamison while saying you wanted defense.
I praised the Hawes signing, but said it should signal a change to the defensive scheme because Hawes can't do hedge and recover, and I didn't like that scheme anyways, Hawes or no Hawes. Guess what? Hawes failed defensively on the team, had confidence issues. How is this surprising? Everyone knows the guy is slow footed. Scheme is changed to zone up vs the pick and roll the next season, oh great.
After Redick was signed, I said Crawford's value is high, you need more defense and size on the wing, you can't have two primarily offense guys, Jamal should be traded. I understand not doing it in 13-14, Doc just came, during the season Redick got injured. I said it again in the next summer though.
15-16, I said you can't trade for Lance and still have both Jamal and Austin on the team. If you are trading for Lance, you have to trade Jamal. These guys don't fit, it doesn't make sense. I also said Josh Smith at the minimum? Great, but if you are bringing him in, you have to be totally on the same page in terms of his role and what you want from him.
I'm no basketball genius, a lot of this is common sense, and you want them to be credited for trying. They made some great moves, they made some great minimum signings, Pablo, Aldrich, Mbah, Johnson, Felton, Speights. I don't consider the signing good if the team wins, it's if it makes sense. The problem is that they built rosters which we knew did not fit and made no sense but Doc always seemed to think he was the coach of coaches and could make it work, then half way through the season you trade half your bench.
Yes you taken risks, but taking risks that are bad and many people can pin point how and why they are bad moves, there's nothing to be commended about that because "well they took some risks and contenders have to take some risks".
Well, I could have told you why moves that worked out wouldn't work, but they did anyway.
JJ doesn't D and is a horrible secondary ballhandler. When we acquaired him, Austin was statistically one of the worst players in NBA history. Luc has no offense.
Your skepticisms were all well-founded as it turned out, but the Knucklehead Twins [Smith and Lance] failed because they're knuckleheads. We were all almost unanimous about Hawes, but as we saw when he joined other teams, the real problem wasn't strategy or tactics, it's that he basically sucks.
They were all longshots, and the reason they failed was the same reason they were longshots in the first place! There were reasons why all those guys you listed were available for the minimum, but those flaws were overcome. Others washed out. As Justin aptly notes, maxxed out as we were with 2/3 of the sal cap going to only 3 players, longshots and minimum-wagers were all we had.
I edited the post to be more clear about some things, but that's okay.
Redick was known as a very solid team defender, and he had started taking on some ball handling roles his last season with Orlando. The Clippers didn't bring him in as ball handler, but his ability to fit in to a defensive scheme and be neutral or even slightly positive was known. SVG always mentioned this, and I mentioned this when he was signed. I did not have those concerns about him.
Luc was the last player signed and he was known as being an elite defender, a great teammate, and a good locker room guy, it was hard for him to not work out unless there were expectations outside of his abilities. He did improve the 3PT shooting efficiency a little, but still low volume and still play off on offense more so than Barnes.
Austin was young and still developing, and he was traded for Bullock. You are correct, he worked out better than most thought or to be more accurate wanted, and I was critical of him when he was not good, but I pointed out when he was good. I was touting the fact that he shot 40% 3PT over the last 30-40 games in 15-16 and that he was finishing over 60% at the rim as a Clipper while people were still complaining that he can't shoot and can't finish. I don't see any value in being unfair. When he was traded for, yes, I said he was below average and while he could get better, I was not a big fan of the move. Before he left New Orleans, he did two things, learned how to finish at the basket better than terrible, and started competing on defense, and I gave him that. YMMV on whether people agree that he necessarily worked out or not, lol
Hawes did and does suck, but he could have sucked less, but you also have to know your personnel, and Doc is not dumb, so those mistakes are mind boggling.
I think you're closing in on my point though. Doc made moves as an overly confident coach. This has been my argument since 13-14, yes, very early, I was saying Doc is making moves with the idea that he will coach players to be better than their reality, and he kept doing that. Pop in talking to coaches said they (SA) don't sign more than one "selfish", or "knucklehead" or "ball stopping" or whatever type player. Doc already had Austin and Jamal, not knuckleheads, but not really ball movement type guys, guys you have to accommodate with. He then brings in Lance Stephenson and Josh Smith, and you only do that when you are overrating yourself as a coach because you now think you're going to merge 4 conflicting players, two being knuckleheads (though Lance was said to be good in that regard).
Minimum contracts and long shots are not all we had. We had these players on good contracts that could be traded to bring in value: Jared Dudley, Matt Barnes, JJ Redick, Jamal Crawford. We had a good amount first round picks that could be traded with those players. We had the MLE each year, and mMLE in 15-16. We had a good team and a favorable location to attract players for cheaper. We also had DeAndre Jordan as a possible trade chip as the weakest of the big three while making similar money. Love the guy and his health, but again, you built up his value, he was wanted, if you think you can do better by being stronger at another position, but getting weaker at C, that's an option, and we've discussed that.
Now, the 4 main starters were just such a good 4 man unit, add any SF and they were always a top 3 five man unit in the league, so sure, you really don't want to mess with that. I get that part, I agree, it's a known commodity, they've shown they can play with anyone. Jamal, he was on the decline right after Doc got there, but he still had that "6th man of the year" aura, and there were teams needing scoring that wanted him. The earlier moves with Dudley and the pick, holding on to Jamal too long, that set up the stage for them having to make desperation moves. Doc didn't come into a situation where he had to make desperation moves, the early moves set up that situation.
