Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving?

[DirtyDez]

Have a feeling that Kyrie's going to end up on the most random team possible, like the Kings or the Magic. just some team nobody thought of because they didn't have any assets but somehow the Cavs get fooled into making a deal. i.e. literally every major trade that has happened in the last year.

I think it will come down to Lebron. Lebron always gets what he wants and Gilbert will do everything except possibly include future unprotected picks to make it happen.

That means Bledsoe
That means an experienced veteran who knows how to play the game - Dudley, or chandler
that might mean a guy like Chriss to appease the Cleveland FO for a young guy
that means the heat pick
that possibly might mean the Suns second rounder for

Kyrie
Shumpert - if taking a contract got to dump a contract
Frye - because Dan Gilbert will be shipping $3-5m in this deal
RJ - perhaps too

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycf3ch8s

Probably saves the Cavs nearly 30m in L-Tax saving. I know Cavs fans don't care but that's a lot of cheese. Maybe we could work out a buyout with Shump.

[Moochthemonkey]

Read on Twitter

That's a lot of cheese.

Well, IMO, Warren definitely shouldn't be either. Wiggins isn't even their best player. KAT, then Butler, THEN Wiggins. Warren is our 3rd best player as we sit today. MAYBE Jackson supplants him, but point is, and no, I'm not going down the Warren-is-better-than-Wiggins rabbit hole, but if their 3rd best player is not available for trade, AND is getting the Max, then Warren, shouldn't be available for trade, and should get at least an 80% of Max salary; He's at LEAST 80% the player Wiggins is, he just wasn't drafted 1st overall, and isn't only 22.

Of 93 SGs and 71 SFs, depending how you view Wiggins, for O/D/RPM, Wiggins finished with 1.56 ORPM (13th/13th-SF), -3.16 DRPM and (91st/69th), and -1.60 RPM (52nd/45th) last year, I'm sorry, I'm not seeing a 'Max' player. That's not even close,and if most of you do not believe Warren is better, yet his advanced stats blow Wiggins' out of the water. Maybe he'll figure it out by year 2 or 3 of the contract, but I sure as heck wouldn't pay max money for those numbers...I don't care how he looks; I want production.

Wiggins is overrated and one of the worst defenders in the league. He probably shouldn't get the max. Warren's #s overall are better as I've shown in the past (though in the 3 ball era we are in he doesn't hold as much value around the league right now..that's fine by me). Warren should not get 80% of the max though no matter what Wiggins got. Sometimes things happen more due to reputation and perceived upside. He's a year and a half younger and improved dramatically on his 3 ball this past year.

well, Otto Porter is making about 85% of Wiggins contract per 4-year value.
unless Warren recedes, you would think teams out there would be willing to shell out a contract in the same ballpark.
if Suns are not willing to match...that makes trade involving Warren more palatable (i.e. in a package for Kyrie athough I still value Warren more than our 2016 rookies)
I think the Suns should match unless there's serious discussions with Boogie and they need the space to sign him

[Moochthemonkey]

I think it will come down to Lebron. Lebron always gets what he wants and Gilbert will do everything except possibly include future unprotected picks to make it happen.

That means Bledsoe
That means an experienced veteran who knows how to play the game - Dudley, or chandler
that might mean a guy like Chriss to appease the Cleveland FO for a young guy
that means the heat pick
that possibly might mean the Suns second rounder for

Kyrie
Shumpert - if taking a contract got to dump a contract
Frye - because Dan Gilbert will be shipping $3-5m in this deal
RJ - perhaps too

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycf3ch8s

Probably saves the Cavs nearly 30m in L-Tax saving. I know Cavs fans don't care but that's a lot of cheese. Maybe we could work out a buyout with Shump.

doesn't matter about Shumpert. either way there's 37.5 million off the books that summer when Booker's rookie deal ends and Kyrie opts out

[bwgood77]

Well, IMO, Warren definitely shouldn't be either. Wiggins isn't even their best player. KAT, then Butler, THEN Wiggins. Warren is our 3rd best player as we sit today. MAYBE Jackson supplants him, but point is, and no, I'm not going down the Warren-is-better-than-Wiggins rabbit hole, but if their 3rd best player is not available for trade, AND is getting the Max, then Warren, shouldn't be available for trade, and should get at least an 80% of Max salary; He's at LEAST 80% the player Wiggins is, he just wasn't drafted 1st overall, and isn't only 22.

Of 93 SGs and 71 SFs, depending how you view Wiggins, for O/D/RPM, Wiggins finished with 1.56 ORPM (13th/13th-SF), -3.16 DRPM and (91st/69th), and -1.60 RPM (52nd/45th) last year, I'm sorry, I'm not seeing a 'Max' player. That's not even close,and if most of you do not believe Warren is better, yet his advanced stats blow Wiggins' out of the water. Maybe he'll figure it out by year 2 or 3 of the contract, but I sure as heck wouldn't pay max money for those numbers...I don't care how he looks; I want production.

Wiggins is overrated and one of the worst defenders in the league. He probably shouldn't get the max. Warren's #s overall are better as I've shown in the past (though in the 3 ball era we are in he doesn't hold as much value around the league right now..that's fine by me). Warren should not get 80% of the max though no matter what Wiggins got. Sometimes things happen more due to reputation and perceived upside. He's a year and a half younger and improved dramatically on his 3 ball this past year.

well, Otto Porter is making about 85% of Wiggins contract per 4-year value.
unless Warren recedes, you would think teams out there would be willing to shell out a contract in the same ballpark.
if Suns are not willing to match...that makes trade involving Warren more palatable (i.e. in a package for Kyrie athough I still value Warren more than our 2016 rookies)
I think the Suns should match unless there's serious discussions with Boogie and they need the space to sign him

Otto Porter's value was very high this year because he shot 43.4% from 3...today in this league that is HIGHLY valued. I expected Porter to get the max. I think unless Warren vastly improves his 3 pt shooting, there just won't be much of a market. I think with him it's going to be more about the market next year. I've read that nba execs think there was a bubble last year and people went crazy with contracts as if the cap would keep going up rapidly, and when it didn't, people put a big halt on these big contracts, expect for a couple teams that like to spend big in NY and Brooklyn offering crazy contracts.

I think there are only like 9 teams projected to have cap space next summer. I'm not entirely sure what those teams are and what their needs are. I was a little worried Brooklyn would make him a big crazy offer but then they took on the Mozgov contract and after the Porter contract was matched they took on DeMarre Carroll and Allen Crabbe. They may have some space but they need to spend it on bigs. At the wing they have Crabbe/Carroll/LeVert and they are playing RHJ as a small ball PF right now.

I guess the Knicks could offer him a contract if Melo stays and then opt out next summer...at that point they could use a SF. It would have to be a team like that. If they do a Melo trade for equal long term money though they won't have cap space.

The problem is that of course we really want Warren to play really well this year so we know he's a part of the future but that would also increase his market value. With the Kyrie trade pending they can't really extend him (doubt they would anyway) but if they knew they wanted him for the future they could try to do a reasonable extension.

I don't think I see Warren making more than like $15 million a year, and probably more like $12.

[jredsaz]

Wiggins is overrated and one of the worst defenders in the league. He probably shouldn't get the max. Warren's #s overall are better as I've shown in the past (though in the 3 ball era we are in he doesn't hold as much value around the league right now..that's fine by me). Warren should not get 80% of the max though no matter what Wiggins got. Sometimes things happen more due to reputation and perceived upside. He's a year and a half younger and improved dramatically on his 3 ball this past year.

well, Otto Porter is making about 85% of Wiggins contract per 4-year value.
unless Warren recedes, you would think teams out there would be willing to shell out a contract in the same ballpark.
if Suns are not willing to match...that makes trade involving Warren more palatable (i.e. in a package for Kyrie athough I still value Warren more than our 2016 rookies)
I think the Suns should match unless there's serious discussions with Boogie and they need the space to sign him

Otto Porter's value was very high this year because he shot 43.4% from 3...today in this league that is HIGHLY valued. I expected Porter to get the max. I think unless Warren vastly improves his 3 pt shooting, there just won't be much of a market. I think with him it's going to be more about the market next year. I've read that nba execs think there was a bubble last year and people went crazy with contracts as if the cap would keep going up rapidly, and when it didn't, people put a big halt on these big contracts, expect for a couple teams that like to spend big in NY and Brooklyn offering crazy contracts.

I think there are only like 9 teams projected to have cap space next summer. I'm not entirely sure what those teams are and what their needs are. I was a little worried Brooklyn would make him a big crazy offer but then they took on the Mozgov contract and after the Porter contract was matched they took on DeMarre Carroll and Allen Crabbe. They may have some space but they need to spend it on bigs. At the wing they have Crabbe/Carroll/LeVert and they are playing RHJ as a small ball PF right now.

I guess the Knicks could offer him a contract if Melo stays and then opt out next summer...at that point they could use a SF. It would have to be a team like that. If they do a Melo trade for equal long term money though they won't have cap space.

The problem is that of course we really want Warren to play really well this year so we know he's a part of the future but that would also increase his market value. With the Kyrie trade pending they can't really extend him (doubt they would anyway) but if they knew they wanted him for the future they could try to do a reasonable extension.

I don't think I see Warren making more than like $15 million a year, and probably more like $12.

Wardens value is all predicated on his 3 point shot. If he can shoot at or above 35% his number goes way up. A team with space will be willing to throw a large offer out there for him. If he continues to struggle for deep we will get him for cheap.

The good news that there aren't very many teams with large amounts of space next year. That, plus his RFA status l, are going to help keep costs down as much as anything.

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[Qwigglez]

Some of the comments made by David Griffin on Kyrie Irving makes me want to trade for him again.

"I see this as him looking for a fit for himself, to take the next step in his career. I think this is a guy who wants to know how good he can be. LeBron casts a very large shadow over an organization. And most of it is really, really positive. You know you are expected to win a championship by way of example. But what that doesn't always allow is for a player like Kyrie to test his boundaries and see how good he can really be, and can I really be the frontman of a team like that."

I think Kyrie maybe seems himself as a Steph Curry kind of player. Curry was the key that made the 2014-15 Warriors win a championship, I look back at that team and wonder how the hell did they win it all.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2015.html
Draymond was their third leading scorer averagin 11 points, 9 boards, and only 4 assist. Good assists for a big man, but not what he posts today.
Again looking back at that team, they won 67 games with a 26 year old Curry, 24 year old Klay, 24 year old Draymond, 22 year old Barnes. They had decent vets around with Bogut, Iggy, Lee, and LB, but none of those guys had championship caliber experience.

I could really see us having a pretty comparable team just younger if we were to trade for Kyrie by only giving up Bledsoe/Chriss and picks.

Curry = Irving
Klay = Booker
Green = Bender
Iggy = Jackson
Barnes = Warren
Bogut = Chandler
Lee = Dudley
Speights = Williams
Livingston = Ulis


And no, I'm not saying our guys are equally as skilled as those guys at this point in their career, I was just making a team comparison that I feel McD is trying to blueprint the Warriors.

[LukasBMW]

If the expansion draft was tomorrow, what 7 players would you protect?

Me:

Bledsoe
Ulis
Booker
Warren
Jackson
Bender
Chriss

That leaves Knight, Chandler, Dudley, Sauce, Len, Reed, and Jr unprotected.

Of the above, I'd think Chandler, Len, and Knight could be most likely to be picked up.

[Saberestar]

Watson has posted some other short videos.
https://www.instagram.com/earljwatson/

[lilfishi22]

Some of the comments made by David Griffin on Kyrie Irving makes me want to trade for him again.

"I see this as him looking for a fit for himself, to take the next step in his career. I think this is a guy who wants to know how good he can be. LeBron casts a very large shadow over an organization. And most of it is really, really positive. You know you are expected to win a championship by way of example. But what that doesn't always allow is for a player like Kyrie to test his boundaries and see how good he can really be, and can I really be the frontman of a team like that."

I think Kyrie maybe seems himself as a Steph Curry kind of player. Curry was the key that made the 2014-15 Warriors win a championship, I look back at that team and wonder how the hell did they win it all.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2015.html
Draymond was their third leading scorer averagin 11 points, 9 boards, and only 4 assist. Good assists for a big man, but not what he posts today.
Again looking back at that team, they won 67 games with a 26 year old Curry, 24 year old Klay, 24 year old Draymond, 22 year old Barnes. They had decent vets around with Bogut, Iggy, Lee, and LB, but none of those guys had championship caliber experience.

I could really see us having a pretty comparable team just younger if we were to trade for Kyrie by only giving up Bledsoe/Chriss and picks.

Curry = Irving
Klay = Booker
Green = Bender
Iggy = Jackson
Barnes = Warren
Bogut = Chandler
Lee = Dudley
Speights = Williams
Livingston = Ulis


And no, I'm not saying our guys are equally as skilled as those guys at this point in their career, I was just making a team comparison that I feel McD is trying to blueprint the Warriors.

That's still a great core and that's without Chriss or Miami 1st.

[Moochthemonkey]

well, if James Harden ever gets bored of basketball at least we know there's another profession he would excel in

[lilfishi22]

well, if James Harden ever gets bored of basketball at least we know there's another profession he would excel in

Everyone slams Kyrie for his poor defense. At least Kyrie tries, Harden puts in no effort but that doesn't stop him from becoming an MVP candidate.

Guard defense today just isn't as important as it once was.

[King4Day]

If the expansion draft was tomorrow, what 7 players would you protect?

Me:

Bledsoe
Ulis
Booker
Warren
Jackson
Bender
Chriss

That leaves Knight, Chandler, Dudley, Sauce, Len, Reed, and Jr unprotected.

Of the above, I'd think Chandler, Len, and Knight could be most likely to be picked up.

I think the biggest debate is Warren and Sauce. If we kept Warren, it means we're 100% committed to him (or to trading him).
But you probably have the same 7 that most would keep.
In this day and age, it would be really fun to experience one of these. From both sides of the coin.

[Frank Lee]

Looking at the trade machine... man there are some horrible teams out there. Dallas, Brooklyn, Detroit, Atlanta, Orlando, US. Its not the year to consider a Tank repeat as it will likely occur naturally. I thought we had cornered ourselves into mediocrity but man... look at Toronto... $90 mill per for the next 3 wrapped up in Lowery, DeRoz, Ibaka, and JoVal ??? Between Bledsoe, Chandler, Dudley, and Knight.... almost 60% of our projected cap space for next year is eaten, but at a paltry $51 mill... and then the elders drop off. Sure, we are on the cusp of paying 20+ mill per to somebody, but for now, McD and Sarver have insulated themselves from the recent price hike/hype in salaries.

This league is IMO, venturing into a dangerous area... 2 or 3 really good teams, 2 or 3 pretty good teams....and 5 or 6 really bad teams. The rest 20 or so mediocre ones, one or two players away from being really good or really bad, but not competitive enough to unseat the good ones. Shades of the Laker/Celt/Sixer dominated 80s. (Detroit did slip in there in 88 and 89) If not for the great rivalries, that decade would have been tough on the average fan. Nowadays, these guys are so buddy buddy in their league wide millionaire club, that hard edge competition is gone. Its easy to cope with losing when you crawl home to your 5000 sq ft man cave. The focus for many of these guys is not winning the championship.... its making the roster for a few years/contracts and if wise, be set for life. Big money strikes again.

[BobbieL]

That means Bledsoe
That means an experienced veteran who knows how to play the game - Dudley, or chandler
that might mean a guy like Chriss to appease the Cleveland FO for a young guy
that means the heat pick
that possibly might mean the Suns second rounder for

Kyrie
Shumpert - if taking a contract got to dump a contract
Frye - because Dan Gilbert will be shipping $3-5m in this deal
RJ - perhaps too

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycf3ch8s

Probably saves the Cavs nearly 30m in L-Tax saving. I know Cavs fans don't care but that's a lot of cheese. Maybe we could work out a buyout with Shump.

doesn't matter about Shumpert. either way there's 37.5 million off the books that summer when Booker's rookie deal ends and Kyrie opts out

Correct. Shumpert expires in 2019 like Dudley or Chandler. So taking on his salary and giving the Cavs Dudley or Chandler is just because one of those two players is valued over Shumpert by Cavs and their GM LeBron . I am not taking Shumpert as a salary dump AND keeping DudleyChandler. Its only a one for one trade - or in addition to the Bledsoe, young player, picks etc. As Shumpert has two years left on his deal so that would hose the Suns cap

Now, Frye and Jefferson are another matter - they expire this year - so the Suns would just be doing Gilberts pocketbook a favor and adding value for the Cavs. But if adding Frye doesn't bring value to the deal - meaning the Cavs do not see saving 35 to 40m and still want Jackson, etc - forget it.

And yes, as presently constructed: Bledsoe, Chandler and Dudley are 37.5 off the cap in 2019 - adding Shumpert for say Dudley, doesn't change that.

its a pipedream - two weeks ago - was wanting Kyrie, now - ehh. The thrill is gone... (and probably for the best )

[NavLDO]

Well, IMO, Warren definitely shouldn't be either. Wiggins isn't even their best player. KAT, then Butler, THEN Wiggins. Warren is our 3rd best player as we sit today. MAYBE Jackson supplants him, but point is, and no, I'm not going down the Warren-is-better-than-Wiggins rabbit hole, but if their 3rd best player is not available for trade, AND is getting the Max, then Warren, shouldn't be available for trade, and should get at least an 80% of Max salary; He's at LEAST 80% the player Wiggins is, he just wasn't drafted 1st overall, and isn't only 22.

Of 93 SGs and 71 SFs, depending how you view Wiggins, for O/D/RPM, Wiggins finished with 1.56 ORPM (13th/13th-SF), -3.16 DRPM and (91st/69th), and -1.60 RPM (52nd/45th) last year, I'm sorry, I'm not seeing a 'Max' player. That's not even close,and if most of you do not believe Warren is better, yet his advanced stats blow Wiggins' out of the water. Maybe he'll figure it out by year 2 or 3 of the contract, but I sure as heck wouldn't pay max money for those numbers...I don't care how he looks; I want production.

Wiggins is overrated and one of the worst defenders in the league. He probably shouldn't get the max. Warren's #s overall are better as I've shown in the past (though in the 3 ball era we are in he doesn't hold as much value around the league right now..that's fine by me). Warren should not get 80% of the max though no matter what Wiggins got. Sometimes things happen more due to reputation and perceived upside. He's a year and a half younger and improved dramatically on his 3 ball this past year.

well, Otto Porter is making about 85% of Wiggins contract per 4-year value.
unless Warren recedes, you would think teams out there would be willing to shell out a contract in the same ballpark.
if Suns are not willing to match...that makes trade involving Warren more palatable (i.e. in a package for Kyrie athough I still value Warren more than our 2016 rookies)
I think the Suns should match unless there's serious discussions with Boogie and they need the space to sign him

Absolutely. Look at Warren's 3rd Season compared to Otto Porter's; very similar in a lot of areas; where Warren is significantly behind is 3PT Attps and 3PT%, but Warren had a 40% average his 2nd season, albeit on a smaller # of attps.

But if teams are only going after 3s that can hit, well, 3s, then maybe Warren is safe and we get lucky and get him on the cheap. I think we should be perfectly fine with a PG/SG, and maybe PF if Bender breaks out, to be to hit the lion's share of our 3s, and let 'Buckets' do his thing. Our HC should be maximizing our team's strengths, which I think he does fairly well; no need to push Warren into doing something that hides his talents, right? It's ok to be different than other teams, IMO...that will help us to succeed!

[jredsaz]

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycf3ch8s

Probably saves the Cavs nearly 30m in L-Tax saving. I know Cavs fans don't care but that's a lot of cheese. Maybe we could work out a buyout with Shump.

doesn't matter about Shumpert. either way there's 37.5 million off the books that summer when Booker's rookie deal ends and Kyrie opts out

Correct. Shumpert expires in 2019 like Dudley or Chandler. So taking on his salary and giving the Cavs Dudley or Chandler is just because one of those two players is valued over Shumpert by Cavs and their GM LeBron . I am not taking Shumpert as a salary dump AND keeping DudleyChandler. Its only a one for one trade - or in addition to the Bledsoe, young player, picks etc. As Shumpert has two years left on his deal so that would hose the Suns cap

Now, Frye and Jefferson are another matter - they expire this year - so the Suns would just be doing Gilberts pocketbook a favor and adding value for the Cavs. But if adding Frye doesn't bring value to the deal - meaning the Cavs do not see saving 35 to 40m and still want Jackson, etc - forget it.

And yes, as presently constructed: Bledsoe, Chandler and Dudley are 37.5 off the cap in 2019 - adding Shumpert for say Dudley, doesn't change that.

its a pipedream - two weeks ago - was wanting Kyrie, now - ehh. The thrill is gone... (and probably for the best )

Shumpert has a player option in 2018. I think he takes it. He will be able to secure more than the $11 million guaranteed unless he gets injured or just plays awful basketball. His 3/D ability adds value to the Suns as well.

[sportscrazy]

Would Courtney Lee + Frank Ntilikina be enough to generate another asset from the Suns in an Eric Bledsoe deal by any chance?

[BobbieL]

Would Courtney Lee + Frank Ntilikina be enough to generate another asset from the Suns in an Eric Bledsoe deal by any chance?

Lee has three years left on his deal - so that's not good. One of the goals now should to be as "clean in 2019" as Week says as possible. Right now, only the guys on rookie deals and Knight are on the books for 2019

If you take on Lee, you are losing cap space.. Plus, Lee with Knight is almost duplicative and with his injury, nobody is taking Knight. Before the KNight injury, Lee might have been an option if say the Cavs got Knight, the Knicks Shumpert and the Suns Lee. now, I don't think realistic at all.

[NTB]

I'd trade Bledsoe for Ntilikina straight off.

[DB43]

I need some fake insider info to get me excited. Someone please say Kyrie is getting traded to the suns in the next couple days again...