Political Roundtable Part XIV

[Wizardspride]

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[montestewart]

I haven't wrapped my head around this or done enough research. So don't beat me up on this but to get purged you need to not vote and then not respond to a change of address confirmation.

So, is the notion that you should:
1) Never purge the voter rolls3) You shouldn't have to confirm a change of address
or
4) other

Given how few actual voter fraud violation we observe, you should balance the right to vote that you will deny people against the voter fraud you will prevent. There will be many, many instances where purging the voting rolls will accidentally deny a citizen
2) It should be 2 or more voting cycles
the legal right to vote (or make it more difficult, with the statistical likelihood that some people will give up), with almost no balancing benefit of preventing fraud. When that is the case, you should not purge anything. The right to vote is the most important right a citizen has, and when there is any possible doubt that you will be affecting that, you should not do it.

Not going to yell at you, but statistically speaking, the *only* discernible purpose of such actions is to prevent people from voting, and the people most likely to be denied the vote are people who tend to vote Democrat. You guys just need to stop pursuing this - it's an extremely bad look. Does voter roll clutter result in actual voter fraud? No? Then leave it alone.

So, 4 - other. Unless there is a necessary action - proven fraud, just leave it alone. This kind of goes with my "government where government is necessary" vs. "government meddling.

Question (I haven't bothered with the research - I don't expect you to do it either). Was the Ohio purging done because of proven voter fraud? Is it a long-term policy that they are just enforcing. Has the enforcement just coming up now or has it been going on for some time.

And even if there was fraud - did they do due diligence to find out the number of case they would prevent vs. the number of eligible voters that didn't vote. Guessing no.

When I read these articles it is frustrating - none of the real questions are answered. Sigh.

Yes, an extremely bad look within a perpetual cycle of Republicans hiding the ball, moving the goal line, and relentlessly changing the rules on the fly until their rules are the only rules. These blatantly partisan voter purge and residency verification efforts, even if they did not prevent/discourage voting, look like needless expenditure of public funds, loudly promoted by Republicans, to create the illusion of an appropriate response to voter fraud perpetrated by and propping up Democrats.

Republicans routinely allege but never prove widespread voter fraud, even where Republicans control all the mechanisms through which to uncover such fraud. Rather than acknowledging the lack of evidence, Trump and his pousse continue to pull wild allegations out of their ascots, escalating a cynical Republican meme, akin to Obama being born in Kenya, etc., disconnected from facts, tied heavily to race, and intended to delegitimize the political process.

Take away politics and fake news and Republican party/media/social media fake news about fake news, and there seems to be much more evidence that Trump is compromised by Russia than evidence of widespread voter fraud. The unstated goal of the Trump-led Republican party is to topple the republic and create a new one in its own red, white, and blue, falsely pious, silk and polyester, blond, tanning booth, comb over image. Hide your comic books!

[popper]

Progressive NYT columnist Thomas Friedman wants D’s to connect with the following Trump issues and take them in a constructive direction. Good advice IMO.

• We can’t take in every immigrant who wants to come here; we need, metaphorically speaking, a high wall that assures Americans we can control our border with a big gate that lets as many people in legally as we can effectively absorb as citizens.

• The Muslim world does have a problem with pluralism — gender pluralism, religious pluralism and intellectual pluralism — and suggesting that terrorism has nothing to do with that fact is naïve; countering violent extremism means constructively engaging with Muslim leaders on this issue.

• Americans want a president focused on growing the economic pie, not just redistributing it. We do have a trade problem with China, which has reformed and closed instead of reformed and opened. We have an even bigger problem with automation wiping out middle-skilled work and we need to generate more blue-collar jobs to anchor communities.

• Political correctness on college campuses has run ridiculously riot. Americans want leaders to be comfortable expressing patriotism and love of country when globalization is erasing national identities. America is not perfect, but it is, more often than not, a force for good in the world.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/opinion/donald-trump-gut-democrats.html?rref=collection%2Fcolumn%2Fthomas-l-friedman&action=click&contentCollection=opinion&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection

[payitforward]

Worth quoting the beginning of Friedman's Op Ed as well:

"I was talking the other day to a wise executive friend and he recalled for me something his favorite boss liked to say: When people rise to the top of an organization and get power, they usually do one of two things: 'They either swell or they grow.'

"Donald Trump has swollen.

"Every character flaw he had before taking office — from his serial lying to his intellectual laziness to his loyalty just to himself and his needs — has grown only larger and more toxic as he has been president. He seems not to have grown a whit in the job. He has surprised only on the downside — never once challenging his own base with new thinking or appearing to be remotely interested in being president of all the people, not just his base...."

[popper]

Worth quoting the beginning of Friedman's Op Ed as well:

"I was talking the other day to a wise executive friend and he recalled for me something his favorite boss liked to say: When people rise to the top of an organization and get power, they usually do one of two things: 'They either swell or they grow.'

"Donald Trump has swollen.

"Every character flaw he had before taking office — from his serial lying to his intellectual laziness to his loyalty just to himself and his needs — has grown only larger and more toxic as he has been president. He seems not to have grown a whit in the job. He has surprised only on the downside — never once challenging his own base with new thinking or appearing to be remotely interested in being president of all the people, not just his base...."

What do you think about Friedman's advice to D's which was the subject of my post. Do you agree or disagree with him on the need for D's to embrace these positions? If not, where do you disagree.

[Zonkerbl]

Progressive NYT columnist Thomas Friedman wants D’s to connect with the following Trump issues and take them in a constructive direction. Good advice IMO.

• We can’t take in every immigrant who wants to come here; we need, metaphorically speaking, a high wall that assures Americans we can control our border with a big gate that lets as many people in legally as we can effectively absorb as citizens.

• The Muslim world does have a problem with pluralism — gender pluralism, religious pluralism and intellectual pluralism — and suggesting that terrorism has nothing to do with that fact is naïve; countering violent extremism means constructively engaging with Muslim leaders on this issue.

• Americans want a president focused on growing the economic pie, not just redistributing it. We do have a trade problem with China, which has reformed and closed instead of reformed and opened. We have an even bigger problem with automation wiping out middle-skilled work and we need to generate more blue-collar jobs to anchor communities.

• Political correctness on college campuses has run ridiculously riot. Americans want leaders to be comfortable expressing patriotism and love of country when globalization is erasing national identities. America is not perfect, but it is, more often than not, a force for good in the world.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/opinion/donald-trump-gut-democrats.html?rref=collection%2Fcolumn%2Fthomas-l-friedman&action=click&contentCollection=opinion&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection

I don't know who the hell Friedman thinks he is. I have no idea who he is.

Republicans need to stop dictating to progressives how to think, and *listen* for once.

And quit fricking griping about political correctness you whiney little children. If you don't understand something, don't talk about it.

Didn't read any of the other stuff. Because I can't take anyone seriously who complains about political correctness, much less some idiot who says it's "rampant on campus." The county I grew up in Ohio is the heroin overdose capital of the country, and you're whining about political correctness. AGAIN.

FOCUS ON WHAT MATTERS.

[dckingsfan]

You are all wet Zonk (fight, fight!)

Friedman is right on - Especially on the first 3 points

• We can’t take in every immigrant who wants to come here; we need, metaphorically speaking, a high wall that assures Americans we can control our border with a big gate that lets as many people in legally as we can effectively absorb as citizens.
-- Familial vs. Skills - this is a no brainer and one you agree with - come on - you know it!

• The Muslim world does have a problem with pluralism — gender pluralism, religious pluralism and intellectual pluralism — and suggesting that terrorism has nothing to do with that fact is naïve; countering violent extremism means constructively engaging with Muslim leaders on this issue.
-- The party of Women's rights (we have gotten into this on before ) - oh wait.

• Americans want a president focused on growing the economic pie, not just redistributing it. We do have a trade problem with China, which has reformed and closed instead of reformed and opened. We have an even bigger problem with automation wiping out middle-skilled work and we need to generate more blue-collar jobs to anchor communities.
-- The Ds are definitely not the party of productivity. They have no message other than unionize McDonald's workers (okay, that is a bit harsh).

I think there are a bunch of issues that Progressives are dead-on. But these issues KILLED them in the last election cycle. The DNC has its collective head buried in the sand, IMO. Kind of pisses me off - their incompetence at least partially lead us to the Trump maniac.

[montestewart]

Progressive NYT columnist Thomas Friedman wants D’s to connect with the following Trump issues and take them in a constructive direction. Good advice IMO.

• We can’t take in every immigrant who wants to come here; we need, metaphorically speaking, a high wall that assures Americans we can control our border with a big gate that lets as many people in legally as we can effectively absorb as citizens.

• The Muslim world does have a problem with pluralism — gender pluralism, religious pluralism and intellectual pluralism — and suggesting that terrorism has nothing to do with that fact is naïve; countering violent extremism means constructively engaging with Muslim leaders on this issue.

• Americans want a president focused on growing the economic pie, not just redistributing it. We do have a trade problem with China, which has reformed and closed instead of reformed and opened. We have an even bigger problem with automation wiping out middle-skilled work and we need to generate more blue-collar jobs to anchor communities.

• Political correctness on college campuses has run ridiculously riot. Americans want leaders to be comfortable expressing patriotism and love of country when globalization is erasing national identities. America is not perfect, but it is, more often than not, a force for good in the world.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/opinion/donald-trump-gut-democrats.html?rref=collection%2Fcolumn%2Fthomas-l-friedman&action=click&contentCollection=opinion&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection

I don't know who the hell Friedman thinks he is. I have no idea who he is.

Republicans need to stop dictating to progressives how to think, and *listen* for once.

And quit fricking griping about political correctness you whiney little children. If you don't understand something, don't talk about it.

Didn't read any of the other stuff. Because I can't take anyone seriously who complains about political correctness, much less some idiot who says it's "rampant on campus." The county I grew up in Ohio is the heroin overdose capital of the country, and you're whining about political correctness. AGAIN.

FOCUS ON WHAT MATTERS.

I don't mind discussions about the first three. I don't think Trump wants to have conversations. I agree about political correctness, a big red herring. There's always been political correctness in academia, and those with minority views, at college or not, have always had to deal with the objections of the majority (or sometimes a vocal minority).

[Wizardspride]

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[payitforward]

Zonk -- if you are really asking who he is, Thomas Friedman is the author of some well-regarded journalistic books about... I guess you'd say "the global political situation." Probably best-known is "The World is Flat," but he made his name with "From Beirut to Jerusalem" (about... well it's obvious).

Popper -- I wouldn't call Friedman a Republican, but I also wouldn't particularly call him a "progressive."

To take the easiest of his issues, first... "political correctness" is an idiotic phrase, but the stuff it stands for (especially on campuses) is equally idiotic. By this point, it's evolved to a point where I'd say it's harmful to the educational process itself. It's sister movements (identity politics, "safe" place, etc.) are all equally stupid.

But, what, I wonder, does this have to do with "...leaders (being) comfortable expressing patriotism and love of country?" & who says "globalization is erasing national identities?" I wish! Instead, we live in a time when nationalistic populism is on the rise globally. An awful development in my opinion, & if anything it has *a lot* in common with the worst aspects of "political correctness" (the creation of inviolable ethnic, or quasi-ethnic identities). Friedman's thinking in this paragraph is even more shallow than typical of him.

As to "America is not perfect, but it is, more often than not, a force for good in the world" -- "good" is a weasel word in that claim. A force for whose good? It's a meaningless claim until that gets unpacked -- & I do mean thoroughly unpacked. I wouldn't say, for example, that the US is a force for "good" in the lives of Iranians. (Be careful how you respond to that, Popper, if you do respond: it's a little bit of a trap.) & anyway, how does that relate to "political correctness" I wonder?

I'll respond to the other points tomorrow.

(Btw, I met Friedman at a small, by-invitation tech retreat I attend yearly. This was about 10 years ago, I think. Like the rest of us at this gathering he was taking notes on the conversation on his laptop. At a break, I went over to where he was sitting & had an inane chat w/ him about I don't remember what. But I do remember seeing the screen of his laptop -- he was using an ancient word processing program called Xywrite, which I hadn't seen in at least a dozen years! Most interesting thing about him! )

Edit: I forgot.... A lot of people in technology think Tom Friedman is a shallow guy. One of them wrote hilarious "Thomas Friedman Op Ed Generator," which I recommend: http://thomasfriedmanopedgenerator.com/about.php

[popper]

Zonk -- if you are really asking who he is, Thomas Friedman is the author of some well-regarded journalistic books about... I guess you'd say "the global political situation." Probably best-known is "The World is Flat," but he made his name with "From Beirut to Jerusalem" (about... well it's obvious).

Popper -- I wouldn't call Friedman a Republican, but I also wouldn't particularly call him a "progressive."

To take the easiest of his issues, first... "political correctness" is an idiotic phrase, but the stuff it stands for (especially on campuses) is equally idiotic. By this point, it's evolved to a point where I'd say it's harmful to the educational process itself. It's sister movements (identity politics, "safe" place, etc.) are all equally stupid.

But, what, I wonder, does this have to do with "...leaders (being) comfortable expressing patriotism and love of country?" & who says "globalization is erasing national identities?" I wish! Instead, we live in a time when nationalistic populism is on the rise globally. An awful development in my opinion, & if anything it has *a lot* in common with the worst aspects of "political correctness" (the creation of inviolable ethnic, or quasi-ethnic identities). Friedman's thinking in this paragraph is even more shallow than typical of him.

As to "America is not perfect, but it is, more often than not, a force for good in the world" -- "good" is a weasel word in that claim. A force for whose good? It's a meaningless claim until that gets unpacked -- & I do mean thoroughly unpacked. I wouldn't say, for example, that the US is a force for "good" in the lives of Iranians. (Be careful how you respond to that, Popper, if you do respond: it's a little bit of a trap.) & anyway, how does that relate to "political correctness" I wonder?

I'll respond to the other points tomorrow.

(Btw, I met Friedman at a small, by-invitation tech retreat I attend yearly. This was about 10 years ago, I think. Like the rest of us at this gathering he was taking notes on the conversation on his laptop. At a break, I went over to where he was sitting & had an inane chat w/ him about I don't remember what. But I do remember seeing the screen of his laptop -- he was using an ancient word processing program called Xywrite, which I hadn't seen in at least a dozen years! Most interesting thing about him! )

Edit: I forgot.... A lot of people in technology think Tom Friedman is a shallow guy. One of them wrote hilarious "Thomas Friedman Op Ed Generator," which I recommend: http://thomasfriedmanopedgenerator.com/about.php

Edit -

[Wizardspride]

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/paul-manafort-blew-the-whistle-on-don-jrs-secret-russia-meeting-report/

Paul Manafort blew the whistle on Don Jr’s secret Russia meeting: report


Paul Manafort appears to be the source who revealed to congressional investigators that he attended a meeting last year with Donald Trump Jr. and a Russian lawyer promising damaging information against Hillary Clinton.

The former Trump campaign chairman’s home was raided late last month by FBI agents seeking evidence in a widening probe of his activity before the election — including his financial ties to Russian oligarchs — after his bank records were subpoenaed, reported Bloomberg Politics.

Federal investigators have been examining allegations that Manafort laundered money from Russia Eastern Europe through New York real estate, according to two sources familiar with that inquiry.

Special counsel Robert Mueller is now investigating those transactions, along with the purchase of Trump properties by wealthy Russians over the past decade and disgraced national security adviser Mike Flynn’s foreign entanglements.

The predawn raid on Manafort’s Virginia home caught the political adviser and his lawyers off guard, according to Bloomberg Politics, because it came a day after he provided notes to the Senate Intelligence Committee on his meeting with Trump Jr. and the Russian attorney.

The Bloomberg report also seems to indicate that Manafort initially told investigators about that meeting — which the president’s son first denied with his father’s help but then provided emails showing how the meeting was set up.

“In fact, Manafort had alerted authorities to a controversial meeting on June 9, 2016, involving Trump’s son Donald Jr., other campaign representatives and a Russian lawyer promising damaging information on Hillary Clinton, according to people familiar with the matter,” Bloomberg reported. “The president and his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, were dragged into the matter as details repeatedly emerged that contradicted the initial accounts of that meeting.”

[Dat2U]

Progressive NYT columnist Thomas Friedman wants D’s to connect with the following Trump issues and take them in a constructive direction. Good advice IMO.

• We can’t take in every immigrant who wants to come here; we need, metaphorically speaking, a high wall that assures Americans we can control our border with a big gate that lets as many people in legally as we can effectively absorb as citizens.

• The Muslim world does have a problem with pluralism — gender pluralism, religious pluralism and intellectual pluralism — and suggesting that terrorism has nothing to do with that fact is naïve; countering violent extremism means constructively engaging with Muslim leaders on this issue.

• Americans want a president focused on growing the economic pie, not just redistributing it. We do have a trade problem with China, which has reformed and closed instead of reformed and opened. We have an even bigger problem with automation wiping out middle-skilled work and we need to generate more blue-collar jobs to anchor communities.

• Political correctness on college campuses has run ridiculously riot. Americans want leaders to be comfortable expressing patriotism and love of country when globalization is erasing national identities. America is not perfect, but it is, more often than not, a force for good in the world.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/opinion/donald-trump-gut-democrats.html?rref=collection%2Fcolumn%2Fthomas-l-friedman&action=click&contentCollection=opinion&region=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=1&pgtype=collection

The assembly-line jobs are gone forever. The remaining blue collar jobs generally require at least medium skill. There needs to be an emphasis on putting resources (especially in rust belt communities) that focus on skill-driven training and job placement programs. This ridiculous idea that we can somehow bring back these low skill jobs by offer tax breaks needs to stop being propagated.

On another note, America is a force for good? LOL. Are we still putting that crap out there? Are we a force for good in the middle east? When Trump talks about dropping bombs in Korea, is he a force for good?

[dckingsfan]

[The assembly-line jobs are gone forever. The remaining blue collar jobs generally require at least medium skill. There needs to be an emphasis on putting resources (especially in rust belt communities) that focus on skill-driven training and job placement programs. This ridiculous idea that we can somehow bring back these low skill jobs by offer tax breaks needs to stop being propagated.

Agreed on this - we should be trying to increase the productivity of our workers. The problem is where do those training dollars come from - our federal, state and local budgets are strapped.

Our current politicians are in a hole dug deep by previous politicians that kicked the ball down the road.

[payitforward]

This is more or less the line I'd have taken as well on TF's 3d bullet point. To put it simply a president cannot grow the economic pie. Economies grow based on increasing worker productivity. Period. There is no other way. Nor can we "generate more blue-collar jobs." What does that even mean?

Manufacturing is being automated. Globally. It's a one-way road. As I've mentioned before China has 25% fewer manufacturing jobs today than it did 10 years ago. We will certainly bring a lot of manufacturing back to our shores, but it won't bring a lot of jobs with it.

It makes sense to manufacture goods near the market where they'll be distributed -- doing that lowers the cost of distribution. To the degree that automation basically levels the value added by manufacturing, it will follow that model. This means that, no, we will not be exporting a lot more to China. That part of Friedman's point is moot.

What can change that? Innovation. Anyone think a president can affect innovation? This president?

[JWizmentality]

I want to care about the opioid crisis but I just don't.

Sent from my ASUS_Z01BDC using Tapatalk

[dckingsfan]

This is more or less the line I'd have taken as well on TF's 3d bullet point. To put it simply a president cannot grow the economic pie. Economies grow based on increasing worker productivity. Period. There is no other way. Nor can we "generate more blue-collar jobs." What does that even mean?

Manufacturing is being automated. Globally. It's a one-way road. As I've mentioned before China has 25% fewer manufacturing jobs today than it did 10 years ago. We will certainly bring a lot of manufacturing back to our shores, but it won't bring a lot of jobs with it.

It makes sense to manufacture goods near the market where they'll be distributed -- doing that lowers the cost of distribution. To the degree that automation basically levels the value added by manufacturing, it will follow that model. This means that, no, we will not be exporting a lot more to China. That part of Friedman's point is moot.

What can change that? Innovation. Anyone think a president can affect innovation? This president?

Very good points. I would add that the federal government can grow (or slow) the economy though tax code and immigration as well. State and local governments through better education (if you believe that the better educated have a change to be more productive).

[dckingsfan]

I want to care about the opioid crisis but I just don't.

You should if you are a tax payer - you are going to pay for it

[verbal8]

What can change that? Innovation. Anyone think a president can affect innovation? This president?

I can see Trump having a negative effect on innovation.

His rhetoric on immigration, even without his Stupid A## Wall makes the US less inviting for immigrants. The ability to a attract skilled/educated immigrants is a key to advances in technology.

So is the education system. Do we have to look any further than his pick for Education Secretary?

Do you think the EPA is going to fund much climate change research?

Do you think the energy department is going to fund much research in to clean energy?

[verbal8]

I want to care about the opioid crisis but I just don't.

You should if you are a tax payer - you are going to pay for it

True on the cost to the government and society.

While drug addicts may seem to deserve what they get, the innocent bystanders in their families/communities deserve sympathy.

If being mad helps you get engaged, get mad at the(few bad apple) doctors who are enabling this. They can't even use the lame defense of some inner city crack dealers that they didn't have an alternative.