Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving?

[bwgood77]

New report says kyrie went a couple days without talking to any teammates during playoffs. Now it's not a Superstar Bron/Kyrie thing, if true, its a kyrie/Everybody thing. Could appear Bron is completely justified in saying get rid of him!

Also

Knicks reengaged trade talks with Houston, Melo says he still has no desire to be any part of cavs organization, ala Jimmy butler.

I THINK THE KYRIE THING HAPPENS SOON!!! I'm not saying necessarily to Phx, but somewhere, I don't think the Cav's can afford to drag this out much longer!

I just listened to the podcast. Definitely seems like James Jones leaked that info to McMenamin. He basically admitted it without admitting it.

Not sure what to make of it. Considering the Suns made an offer (albeit a lowball offer) seems that not worried about chemistry issues. I also think Irving and Jones have been in communication indirectly or thru "back channels".

McMenamin also says they could go into the season with Kyrie and pull off a Wiggins deal when Teague is eligible to be traded. The Wolves owner recently said he wants to see more from Wiggins before giving him a max deal. Butler is very close with Irving and he's been campaigning for him.

By that point the Cavaliers team will have imploded

I've always thought that's the best deal that could happen...but it has sounded like Wiggins will get the max far before that date.

In other news, I'm really glad Magic is the Lakers GM now.

Read on Twitter

[BobbieL]

Read on Twitter

Make it a 4 team trade.

Irving to NY

Melo to Houston

Bledsoe, Lee, Ryan Anderson, Miami 1st, NY 1st to CLE

Ntkilia and Frye to PHX

I wouldn't be surprised if something likes this happens, but we better not give up Bledsoe AND our Miami 1st round pick for Ntilikina. If anything, Cleveland's sends us their pick w/ Ntilikina if we are sending them Bledsoe.

I don't think the Suns need to send any more to the Cavs. Bledsoe for Nikita/Frye is a fair deal for Bledsoe. MOre than fair. If they want a second rounder - well they can have Torontos. The Knicks should be giving the Cavs a 1st rounder as all they are giving up is Lee and Frank N. And the Rockets should be giving up a lot for somebody to take Ryan Anderson

Amico thinks Irving trade talks will continue into September - he lists the Suns as front runners

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If it does happen - and its the Suns straight up for Kyrie and the CAvs - well we all know what it will be: Kyrie for Bled, Miami Pick, young forward and the Suns take Frye to save Dan Gilbert money

[Jarlaxle0204]

Please don't trade Bender.

[mab2039]

If the rumor about Miami deal is true then i dont know how you are trumping that offer with just Bledsoe, Bender and Miami 1st. I dont know if Cleveland is enamored with just Miami 1st that Phoenix is offering all that much. Miami deal gives them Winslow, who is a blue chip prospect they desire. Ofcourse Miami does not have the 1st rounder to offer but if they offered Bam Adebayo, then its a slam dunk for Cavs.
Justice Winslow was injured last year and his offense needs a lot of work but his defense is straight savage.

[Kerrsed]

If the rumor about Miami deal is true then i dont know how you are trumping that offer with just Bledsoe, Bender and Miami 1st. I dont know if Cleveland is enamored with just Miami 1st that Phoenix is offering all that much. Miami deal gives them Winslow, who is a blue chip prospect they desire. Ofcourse Miami does not have the 1st rounder to offer but if they offered Bam Adebayo, then its a slam dunk for Cavs.
Justice Winslow was injured last year and his offense needs a lot of work but his defense is straight savage.

See, this is what i find funny. If you deal with damn near any Cav fan on the board, they will tell you that any of our offers made will not get the job done unless it has Jackson and/or our unprotected 2018 pick. Yet you see them saying they would rather do the Miami deal than our deals. Its like LMAO. Bledsoe>>>Dragic (and its no question). They scoff at the idea that Bender or Chriss or Warren is a "Blue Chip Prospect" yet are fine with Winslow, who really hasnt showed much, some would say shown less, was a later pick than Bender or Chriss, and was 2nd team rookie along with Chriss. So how exactly is Chris (or Bender or Warren) trash in their eyes, yet they would be gun-ho about Winslow? Yeah.....

And we keep being told that the Miami pick isnt good enough and it HAS to be our 1st round pick and unprotected. Thats another big ol' LMFAO. Bam? You mean the last pick in the lotto? Why because he was good in Summer league? Shhhhhheeeeeettttt..... We all know that summer league dont mean a damn thing, as players like Goodwin and Banks showed us (and that was just on our team!).

So for them say that the Miami trade blows ours out of the water and they would take that over ours anyday, my words of wisdom are, "Go ahead and take the Miami deal LOL". I think Miami's names just being thrown out there to try to up our offer. I think that pretty much any teams "New and Improved" offer is bs. Cleveland is just gonna play themselves.

[Dambo]

When will the full season schedule be released.

[mab2039]

If the rumor about Miami deal is true then i dont know how you are trumping that offer with just Bledsoe, Bender and Miami 1st. I dont know if Cleveland is enamored with just Miami 1st that Phoenix is offering all that much. Miami deal gives them Winslow, who is a blue chip prospect they desire. Ofcourse Miami does not have the 1st rounder to offer but if they offered Bam Adebayo, then its a slam dunk for Cavs.
Justice Winslow was injured last year and his offense needs a lot of work but his defense is straight savage.

See, this is what i find funny. If you deal with damn near any Cav fan on the board, they will tell you that any of our offers made will not get the job done unless it has Jackson and/or our unprotected 2018 pick. Yet you see them saying they would rather do the Miami deal than our deals. Its like LMAO. Bledsoe>>>Dragic (and its no question). They scoff at the idea that Bender or Chriss or Warren is a "Blue Chip Prospect" yet are fine with Winslow, who really hasnt showed much, some would say shown less, was a later pick than Bender or Chriss, and was 2nd team rookie along with Chriss. So how exactly is Chris (or Bender or Warren) trash in their eyes, yet they would be gun-ho about Winslow? Yeah.....

And we keep being told that the Miami pick isnt good enough and it HAS to be our 1st round pick and unprotected. Thats another big ol' LMFAO. Bam? You mean the last pick in the lotto? Why because he was good in Summer league? Shhhhhheeeeeettttt..... We all know that summer league dont mean a damn thing, as players like Goodwin and Banks showed us (and that was just on our team!).

So for them say that the Miami trade blows ours out of the water and they would take that over ours anyday, my words of wisdom are, "Go ahead and take the Miami deal LOL". I think Miami's names just being thrown out there to try to up our offer. I think that pretty much any teams "New and Improved" offer is bs. Cleveland is just gonna play themselves.

First i am not a Cavs fan, Second i never said anything about Phoenix trading JJ or your unprotected pick. Not all players are valued the same way by all teams.You say Irving is not that much of an improvement and yet you are saying Bledsoe>>>Dragic(without any question). I dont follow that logic that much. I will agree that Bledsoe is a little better than dragic because he is younger and a better defender but Dragic is not a slouch either. But what i disagree with you is, Irving is superior to Bledsoe. His playoffs performances speaks for itself.
When i said Cavs might prefer Miami heat because Goran can play offball, he can paly the two guard with Rose on the floor and he is way better 3pt shooter than Bledsoe. And chriss and Bender might not even be able to play that much meaningful minutes come playoff time. Winslow is a far better defender who can help them right now. Bam is not a sure thing, i know that. BTW Josh Jackson isn't a sure thing, you should know that too. All i am saying is Miami gives them a win now players with less future but Winslow is a good prospect to have.

[AtheJ415]

If the rumor about Miami deal is true then i dont know how you are trumping that offer with just Bledsoe, Bender and Miami 1st. I dont know if Cleveland is enamored with just Miami 1st that Phoenix is offering all that much. Miami deal gives them Winslow, who is a blue chip prospect they desire. Ofcourse Miami does not have the 1st rounder to offer but if they offered Bam Adebayo, then its a slam dunk for Cavs.
Justice Winslow was injured last year and his offense needs a lot of work but his defense is straight savage.

Winslow was a blue chip prospect years ago. He has done absolutely 0 in the NBA for anybody to consider him a centerpiece of a trade. Look at his numbers. They are abysmal, and not just in general, but also for his age. Dude had a NEGATIVE winshare last year for god's sake. His career PER is 8.3, and is a career 40% FG, 25% 3, and 66% FT shooter. His ORtg-DRtg is grossly negative. To say he hasn't shown much on O is an understatement. I could argue he may be the worst offensive player in basketball. And his D numbers aren't that great either. His DBPM was 1.5. Very good for his age, but not "savage".

Goran is a solid player, but numbers and relationship with Lebron favors Bledsoe to him. Winslow is no more proven than Bender and Bender has as much upside in my opinion. He was a much higher pick in a much better draft (at least relative to at the time thoughts), so I don't believe I would be alone in that assessment.

Bam was considered by most a late 1st in this very deep draft. He ended up going earlier and looked good in Summer League. I actually like him as a player, but that is not necessarily more valuable than the Miami 1st next year.

In fact, I would argue that if the trade is Bled and Chriss alone that is much better than Miami's with Bam and Winslow. Chriss had 17 and 7 per 36 after the all star break, and is a better athlete than both Winslow and Bam.

[mab2039]

If the rumor about Miami deal is true then i dont know how you are trumping that offer with just Bledsoe, Bender and Miami 1st. I dont know if Cleveland is enamored with just Miami 1st that Phoenix is offering all that much. Miami deal gives them Winslow, who is a blue chip prospect they desire. Ofcourse Miami does not have the 1st rounder to offer but if they offered Bam Adebayo, then its a slam dunk for Cavs.
Justice Winslow was injured last year and his offense needs a lot of work but his defense is straight savage.

Winslow was a blue chip prospect years ago. He has done absolutely 0 in the NBA for anybody to consider him a centerpiece of a trade. Look at his numbers. They are abysmal, and not just in general, but also for his age. Dude had a NEGATIVE winshare last year for god's sake. His career PER is 8.3, and is a career 40% FG, 25% 3, and 66% FT shooter. His ORtg-DRtg is grossly negative. To say he hasn't shown much on O is an understatement. I could argue he may be the worst offensive player in basketball. And his D numbers aren't that great either. His DBPM was 1.5. Very good for his age, but not "savage".

Goran is a solid player, but numbers and relationship with Lebron favors Bledsoe to him. Winslow is no more proven than Bender and Bender has as much upside in my opinion. He was a much higher pick in a much better draft (at least relative to at the time thoughts), so I don't believe I would be alone in that assessment.

Bam was considered by most a late 1st in this very deep draft. He ended up going earlier and looked good in Summer League. I actually like him as a player, but that is not necessarily more valuable than the Miami 1st next year.

In fact, I would argue that if the trade is Bled and Chriss alone that is much better than Miami's with Bam and Winslow. Chriss had 17 and 7 per 36 after the all star break, and is a better athlete than both Winslow and Bam.

Winslow was injured much of last year, may be you should look that up or watch some games other than just Suns basketball. And i clearly said his offense needs work but his defense is what a team like Cavs severly lacked last year. And you talk of Winslow like he is 25, he is 21, a year older than Chriss and 2 years older than Bender. Benders rookie season was one of the worst btw, but i didnt come here to call him a bust. Its all about what other team needs. May be Cavs have other options regarding Irving trade. What i am saying is, you might value Chriss or Bender highly, which you should. But at the same time Cavs might not value them all that much because they already have superior player playing that position and they were sorely lacking defensive player like WInslow.

[Kerrsed]

If the rumor about Miami deal is true then i dont know how you are trumping that offer with just Bledsoe, Bender and Miami 1st. I dont know if Cleveland is enamored with just Miami 1st that Phoenix is offering all that much. Miami deal gives them Winslow, who is a blue chip prospect they desire. Ofcourse Miami does not have the 1st rounder to offer but if they offered Bam Adebayo, then its a slam dunk for Cavs.
Justice Winslow was injured last year and his offense needs a lot of work but his defense is straight savage.

See, this is what i find funny. If you deal with damn near any Cav fan on the board, they will tell you that any of our offers made will not get the job done unless it has Jackson and/or our unprotected 2018 pick. Yet you see them saying they would rather do the Miami deal than our deals. Its like LMAO. Bledsoe>>>Dragic (and its no question). They scoff at the idea that Bender or Chriss or Warren is a "Blue Chip Prospect" yet are fine with Winslow, who really hasnt showed much, some would say shown less, was a later pick than Bender or Chriss, and was 2nd team rookie along with Chriss. So how exactly is Chris (or Bender or Warren) trash in their eyes, yet they would be gun-ho about Winslow? Yeah.....

And we keep being told that the Miami pick isnt good enough and it HAS to be our 1st round pick and unprotected. Thats another big ol' LMFAO. Bam? You mean the last pick in the lotto? Why because he was good in Summer league? Shhhhhheeeeeettttt..... We all know that summer league dont mean a damn thing, as players like Goodwin and Banks showed us (and that was just on our team!).

So for them say that the Miami trade blows ours out of the water and they would take that over ours anyday, my words of wisdom are, "Go ahead and take the Miami deal LOL". I think Miami's names just being thrown out there to try to up our offer. I think that pretty much any teams "New and Improved" offer is bs. Cleveland is just gonna play themselves.

First i am not a Cavs fan, Second i never said anything about Phoenix trading JJ or your unprotected pick. Not all players are valued the same way by all teams.You say Irving is not that much of an improvement and yet you are saying Bledsoe>>>Dragic(without any question). I dont follow that logic that much. I will agree that Bledsoe is a little better than dragic because he is younger and a better defender but Dragic is not a slouch either. But what i disagree with you is, Irving is superior to Bledsoe. His playoffs performances speaks for itself.
When i said Cavs might prefer Miami heat because Goran can play offball, he can paly the two guard with Rose on the floor and he is way better 3pt shooter than Bledsoe. And chriss and Bender might not even be able to play that much meaningful minutes come playoff time. Winslow is a far better defender who can help them right now. Bam is not a sure thing, i know that. BTW Josh Jackson isn't a sure thing, you should know that too. All i am saying is Miami gives them a win now players with less future but Winslow is a good prospect to have.

I know/knew you wernt. Just had to vent after reading everywhere how our offer is ****, yet the Miami deal is sooooo much better. Wasnt meant to be combative to your post at all. And i did not say that Irving isnt that much of an improvement over Bledsoe. His Age and offense dictate that he is. And im not saying that Bledsoe is lightyears ahead of Dragic, but Bledsoe has the age advantage (Just like Irving does over him), much better defense, but also outputs better stats (in every CAT minus 3PT).

As for Dragic playing off the ball, yeah, Cleveland isnt going to want that. Trust me, we tried that YEARS ago, it was a failure and and he got so frustrated with it he asked to be traded (so we did).

Dissatisfied with his role on the team, Goran Dragic says he’s made up his mind that he’s leaving the Phoenix Suns, preferably before Thursday’s trade deadline.

If not, he has made it clear there is no way he would re-sign with the team after this season.

As Dragic put it, “I don’t trust them anymore.”

The 28-year-old guard, whose points and assists are down considerably from last season, says he doesn’t like his role of “standing in the corner” and wants to go to a team where he can be a true point guard again.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/basketball/dissatisfied-with-role-dragic-asks-suns-for-trade/article23057147/

I also dont understand when it comes to the youngsters (Blue Chips). The idea is they want one for if (WHEN) Lebron leaves. Warren has experience and is a microwave off the bench. I think out of anyone he would have a role if push came to shove on the contending team. He's played starters minutes at both SF and PF and proves he has what it takes. Hell, Chriss spent the entire season as our starting PF last season. But Winslow? Really? His is a SF through and through. How is he going to "help them right now"? When lebron sits for his 5 minutes per game? And Cmon! Winslow has only started in a total of 23 games in BOTH SEASONS COMBINED! I just dont buy that he is a better "Blue Chip Prospect" than any of the guys that we have been offering.

Im just saying, look at a player comparison of all 4 guys and tell me that Winslow is the best guy : http://bkref.com/tiny/qkhaN
And here's the link if you want to try to use Winslows "Better stats" from his rookie season: http://bkref.com/tiny/kMJNs

[AtheJ415]

If the rumor about Miami deal is true then i dont know how you are trumping that offer with just Bledsoe, Bender and Miami 1st. I dont know if Cleveland is enamored with just Miami 1st that Phoenix is offering all that much. Miami deal gives them Winslow, who is a blue chip prospect they desire. Ofcourse Miami does not have the 1st rounder to offer but if they offered Bam Adebayo, then its a slam dunk for Cavs.
Justice Winslow was injured last year and his offense needs a lot of work but his defense is straight savage.

See, this is what i find funny. If you deal with damn near any Cav fan on the board, they will tell you that any of our offers made will not get the job done unless it has Jackson and/or our unprotected 2018 pick. Yet you see them saying they would rather do the Miami deal than our deals. Its like LMAO. Bledsoe>>>Dragic (and its no question). They scoff at the idea that Bender or Chriss or Warren is a "Blue Chip Prospect" yet are fine with Winslow, who really hasnt showed much, some would say shown less, was a later pick than Bender or Chriss, and was 2nd team rookie along with Chriss. So how exactly is Chris (or Bender or Warren) trash in their eyes, yet they would be gun-ho about Winslow? Yeah.....

And we keep being told that the Miami pick isnt good enough and it HAS to be our 1st round pick and unprotected. Thats another big ol' LMFAO. Bam? You mean the last pick in the lotto? Why because he was good in Summer league? Shhhhhheeeeeettttt..... We all know that summer league dont mean a damn thing, as players like Goodwin and Banks showed us (and that was just on our team!).

So for them say that the Miami trade blows ours out of the water and they would take that over ours anyday, my words of wisdom are, "Go ahead and take the Miami deal LOL". I think Miami's names just being thrown out there to try to up our offer. I think that pretty much any teams "New and Improved" offer is bs. Cleveland is just gonna play themselves.

First i am not a Cavs fan, Second i never said anything about Phoenix trading JJ or your unprotected pick. Not all players are valued the same way by all teams.You say Irving is not that much of an improvement and yet you are saying Bledsoe>>>Dragic(without any question). I dont follow that logic that much. I will agree that Bledsoe is a little better than dragic because he is younger and a better defender but Dragic is not a slouch either. But what i disagree with you is, Irving is superior to Bledsoe. His playoffs performances speaks for itself.
When i said Cavs might prefer Miami heat because Goran can play offball, he can paly the two guard with Rose on the floor and he is way better 3pt shooter than Bledsoe. And chriss and Bender might not even be able to play that much meaningful minutes come playoff time. Winslow is a far better defender who can help them right now. Bam is not a sure thing, i know that. BTW Josh Jackson isn't a sure thing, you should know that too. All i am saying is Miami gives them a win now players with less future but Winslow is a good prospect to have.

The problem with all of this is that absolutely 0 can be backed up by the numbers. Winslow literally may be the worst offensive player in basketball. He is also not a "win now" player. He would be if he only played 1 part of the game, but his offense is so very bad that he is actually a negative win share player, which is incredibly difficult to accomplish. If you were looking for an athletic defender I could legitimately argue that Derrick Jones Jr. is a more win now player than Winslow.

Basically the numbers dictate that doing the Miami trade discussed over the Phoenix trade is trading for a currently worse and older PG with less athletic upside who isn't bff with Lebron (Bledsoe is unquestionably better than Goran by numbers and contract), thus losing now, and gaining 2 future projects, one who is entering his 3rd year and has shown 0 (at least Bender is only 19 still and played like 20 games so that is more understandable), and another who had a good summer league and was a recent late lottery pick.

[AtheJ415]

If the rumor about Miami deal is true then i dont know how you are trumping that offer with just Bledsoe, Bender and Miami 1st. I dont know if Cleveland is enamored with just Miami 1st that Phoenix is offering all that much. Miami deal gives them Winslow, who is a blue chip prospect they desire. Ofcourse Miami does not have the 1st rounder to offer but if they offered Bam Adebayo, then its a slam dunk for Cavs.
Justice Winslow was injured last year and his offense needs a lot of work but his defense is straight savage.

Winslow was a blue chip prospect years ago. He has done absolutely 0 in the NBA for anybody to consider him a centerpiece of a trade. Look at his numbers. They are abysmal, and not just in general, but also for his age. Dude had a NEGATIVE winshare last year for god's sake. His career PER is 8.3, and is a career 40% FG, 25% 3, and 66% FT shooter. His ORtg-DRtg is grossly negative. To say he hasn't shown much on O is an understatement. I could argue he may be the worst offensive player in basketball. And his D numbers aren't that great either. His DBPM was 1.5. Very good for his age, but not "savage".

Goran is a solid player, but numbers and relationship with Lebron favors Bledsoe to him. Winslow is no more proven than Bender and Bender has as much upside in my opinion. He was a much higher pick in a much better draft (at least relative to at the time thoughts), so I don't believe I would be alone in that assessment.

Bam was considered by most a late 1st in this very deep draft. He ended up going earlier and looked good in Summer League. I actually like him as a player, but that is not necessarily more valuable than the Miami 1st next year.

In fact, I would argue that if the trade is Bled and Chriss alone that is much better than Miami's with Bam and Winslow. Chriss had 17 and 7 per 36 after the all star break, and is a better athlete than both Winslow and Bam.

Winslow was injured much of last year, may be you should look that up or watch some games other than just Suns basketball. And i clearly said his offense needs work but his defense is what a team like Cavs severly lacked last year. And you talk of Winslow like he is 25, he is 21, a year older than Chriss and 2 years older than Bender. Benders rookie season was one of the worst btw, but i didnt come here to call him a bust. Its all about what other team needs. May be Cavs have other options regarding Irving trade. What i am saying is, you might value Chriss or Bender highly, which you should. But at the same time Cavs might not value them all that much because they already have superior player playing that position and they were sorely lacking defensive player like WInslow.

I am looking at his CAREER numbers. Not just last year. His offense doesn't just "need work". It is arguably the worst in all of basketball. The numbers show that.

The numbers also show that Chriss is MUCH BETTER than Winslow, as is Warren, as is Derrick freaking Jones Jr. It's funny you say Bender's rookie season was one of the worst, because his numbers from the few games he played as the youngest player in basketball on a horrid team with a poor X's and O's coach are nearly identical to Winslow's CAREER numbers with a much better team and coach around him. Meaning you are both claiming that Winslow helps you win now, while claiming Bender is not capable of it, despite their overall numbers being damn near identical.

Also, I promise you I watch more basketball than you. And I look at the numbers to back up my opinions. Yours don't have any stats to back them up because your opinion is simply wrong.

[batsmasher]

I am looking at his CAREER numbers. Not just last year. His offense doesn't just "need work". It is arguably the worst in all of basketball. The numbers show that.

The numbers also show that Chriss is MUCH BETTER than Winslow, as is Warren, as is Derrick freaking Jones Jr. It's funny you say Bender's rookie season was one of the worst, because his numbers from the few games he played as the youngest player in basketball on a horrid team with a poor X's and O's coach are nearly identical to Winslow's CAREER numbers with a much better team and coach around him. Meaning you are both claiming that Winslow helps you win now, while claiming Bender is not capable of it, despite their overall numbers being damn near identical.

Also, I promise you I watch more basketball than you. And I look at the numbers to back up my opinions. Yours don't have any stats to back them up because your opinion is simply wrong.

He's a good passer for a forward. The 15% AST% this year was just a taste of stuff he can do. And a lot of that was out of the PnR. The low TO rate helps too.

And he rebounds at a solid rate for a forward. Last season he had almost the same TRB% as Chriss.

The defense isn't showing up statistically yet but as someone who watches a lot of basketball, you'd know that his agility and body control mean he has a heap of potential on that end. And the 2.1 STL% is already above average.

Downplaying Winslow's potential at this stage would be naive. He has shown many smaller things which suggest there's plenty to work with. Same can be said for Chriss.

Assessing both statistically at this stage of their career is plain silly because you're picking between absolutely-god-awful and slightly-less-absolutely-god-awful.

[mademan]

I see some kind of middle ground compromise where both teams hate it.

Kyrie/shump for bled/Chriss/warren/ Miami 1st

[carey]

I see some kind of middle ground compromise where both teams hate it.

Kyrie/shump for bled/Chriss/warren/ Miami 1st

Not for 2-years of Kyrie. You have to take one of the non-Bledsoe assets out for sure.

[Frank Lee]

Chriss wouldn't had seen 10 minutes a game had he been on a team playing meaningful games that had a real PF. The guy can dunk yay....but he doest know how to play basketball.... yet. The league has seen many of him.... some make it some dont... but quit trying claim he is anything more than a kid with potential. A starting PF he is not, a sixth man he is not.... except here where he had to beat out a chubby SF and an injured 19 yr old.

I'd take miami's deal over ours. Winslow and Bam look to be far better defenders than Chris and a pick. And Bled and Dragic are pretty much =... but I think Dragic is a better fit. Had Bled been the Defensive-Baller he was sold as, then may be not... but he isn't. And does age really trump Injury when you are dealing with a two year window?

BTW, this team has sucked since handing the helm over to Bledsoe. IMO, his value (to us) has been reduced to Boogie Bait.

[King4Day]

If the rumor about Miami deal is true then i dont know how you are trumping that offer with just Bledsoe, Bender and Miami 1st. I dont know if Cleveland is enamored with just Miami 1st that Phoenix is offering all that much. Miami deal gives them Winslow, who is a blue chip prospect they desire. Ofcourse Miami does not have the 1st rounder to offer but if they offered Bam Adebayo, then its a slam dunk for Cavs.
Justice Winslow was injured last year and his offense needs a lot of work but his defense is straight savage.

See, this is what i find funny. If you deal with damn near any Cav fan on the board, they will tell you that any of our offers made will not get the job done unless it has Jackson and/or our unprotected 2018 pick. Yet you see them saying they would rather do the Miami deal than our deals. Its like LMAO. Bledsoe>>>Dragic (and its no question). They scoff at the idea that Bender or Chriss or Warren is a "Blue Chip Prospect" yet are fine with Winslow, who really hasnt showed much, some would say shown less, was a later pick than Bender or Chriss, and was 2nd team rookie along with Chriss. So how exactly is Chris (or Bender or Warren) trash in their eyes, yet they would be gun-ho about Winslow? Yeah.....

And we keep being told that the Miami pick isnt good enough and it HAS to be our 1st round pick and unprotected. Thats another big ol' LMFAO. Bam? You mean the last pick in the lotto? Why because he was good in Summer league? Shhhhhheeeeeettttt..... We all know that summer league dont mean a damn thing, as players like Goodwin and Banks showed us (and that was just on our team!).

So for them say that the Miami trade blows ours out of the water and they would take that over ours anyday, my words of wisdom are, "Go ahead and take the Miami deal LOL". I think Miami's names just being thrown out there to try to up our offer. I think that pretty much any teams "New and Improved" offer is bs. Cleveland is just gonna play themselves.

This might have more to do with the Suns having many more assets than Miami. I think Ainge said that them having a ton of assets is making teams demand more from them. Could be the same situation with us.

[Qwigglez]

If a deal occurs where we don't get Kyrie, I would mostly prefer it to be the Heat who get Kyrie. The Heat really aren't giving up much as I don't feel Winslow and Bam are even on the same tier as Bender/Chriss in terms of potential. But they lose some depth and I would hope that means they struggle to win games and make our 2018 pick slightly better, maybe even that lucky No 13-14 spot in the draft.

[NavLDO]

If the rumor about Miami deal is true then i dont know how you are trumping that offer with just Bledsoe, Bender and Miami 1st. I dont know if Cleveland is enamored with just Miami 1st that Phoenix is offering all that much. Miami deal gives them Winslow, who is a blue chip prospect they desire. Ofcourse Miami does not have the 1st rounder to offer but if they offered Bam Adebayo, then its a slam dunk for Cavs.
Justice Winslow was injured last year and his offense needs a lot of work but his defense is straight savage.

Winslow was a blue chip prospect years ago. He has done absolutely 0 in the NBA for anybody to consider him a centerpiece of a trade. Look at his numbers. They are abysmal, and not just in general, but also for his age. Dude had a NEGATIVE winshare last year for god's sake. His career PER is 8.3, and is a career 40% FG, 25% 3, and 66% FT shooter. His ORtg-DRtg is grossly negative. To say he hasn't shown much on O is an understatement. I could argue he may be the worst offensive player in basketball. And his D numbers aren't that great either. His DBPM was 1.5. Very good for his age, but not "savage".

Goran is a solid player, but numbers and relationship with Lebron favors Bledsoe to him. Winslow is no more proven than Bender and Bender has as much upside in my opinion. He was a much higher pick in a much better draft (at least relative to at the time thoughts), so I don't believe I would be alone in that assessment.

Bam was considered by most a late 1st in this very deep draft. He ended up going earlier and looked good in Summer League. I actually like him as a player, but that is not necessarily more valuable than the Miami 1st next year.

In fact, I would argue that if the trade is Bled and Chriss alone that is much better than Miami's with Bam and Winslow. Chriss had 17 and 7 per 36 after the all star break, and is a better athlete than both Winslow and Bam.

Winslow was injured much of last year, may be you should look that up or watch some games other than just Suns basketball. And i clearly said his offense needs work but his defense is what a team like Cavs severly lacked last year. And you talk of Winslow like he is 25, he is 21, a year older than Chriss and 2 years older than Bender. Benders rookie season was one of the worst btw, but i didnt come here to call him a bust. Its all about what other team needs. May be Cavs have other options regarding Irving trade. What i am saying is, you might value Chriss or Bender highly, which you should. But at the same time Cavs might not value them all that much because they already have superior player playing that position and they were sorely lacking defensive player like WInslow.

How many positions can Winslow defend? Bender has the ability to defend from the 3 to 5. And while his DBPM isn't that of Winslow's his rookie season, on equal # of possessions or time, Winslow's Blks were 1/3 of Bender's last year. Same for Chriss, and Chriss was much more successful on the Offensive end.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I see some kind of middle ground compromise where both teams hate it.

Kyrie/shump for bled/Chriss/warren/ Miami 1st

Not for 2-years of Kyrie. You have to take one of the non-Bledsoe assets out for sure.

I think I'd love that deal if I were a Cavs fan. Obviously, I hate it as a Suns fan.

I also find it interesting that while the national media appears not to know who TJ Warren is, fans of other teams throw him into almost every Suns trade compulsively. If he were dealt to a team that had national media interest (like Cleveland), I think the media would go bonkers over him pretty quickly and label him an up-and-comer, a late-bloomer, a potential future all-star. But in Phoenix? He's a nobody.

Dumb.