Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving?

[bwgood77]

He only played in 18 games. Miami wasn't a good team to start the season. They were 11-30 in the first half. He played in two stretches of 9 games and was battling injuries. It's WAY too early to definitely judge him, just like it's WAY too early to definitely judge Bender, who also had a negative 4 OBPM. But battling injuries and playing 18 games is hardly a good reflection of what type of impact he will provide going forward.

As a rookie he had a BPM of -.6 and Chriss had a BPM of -1.6. Chriss was slightly better on the offensive side and far worse on the defensive side as a rookie. Bam hasn't played but the Miami pick is more than a year away from playing.

Its a pretty good trade for the Cavs for the long term perspective with Winslow and Bam; Dragic instead of Bledsoe (just comping the Suns trade pieces) - though older wouldn't hurt in 2017/18 season. I can see them doing it - unless they want to ship Irving out West for the sake of getting him out of conference. I think the value of Bam today is more than a Tbd draft pick and the comparison of Winslow v Chriss or Warren, that could go either way. What does LeBron want? End of the day, if Dragic helps his team more, he would pick Dragic I think.

Also if LeBron definitely plans to leave after next season, he might rather leave Dragic stranded in Cleveland than do it to his friend Bledsoe. That's total conjecture but could be a factor.

There was a report somewhere that Bledsoe's camp wouldn't want him there pretty much meaning he wouldn't stay long term.

[AtheJ415]

He only played in 18 games. Miami wasn't a good team to start the season. They were 11-30 in the first half. He played in two stretches of 9 games and was battling injuries. It's WAY too early to definitely judge him, just like it's WAY too early to definitely judge Bender, who also had a negative 4 OBPM. But battling injuries and playing 18 games is hardly a good reflection of what type of impact he will provide going forward.

As a rookie he had a BPM of -.6 and Chriss had a BPM of -1.6. Chriss was slightly better on the offensive side and far worse on the defensive side as a rookie. Bam hasn't played but the Miami pick is more than a year away from playing.

I'm not really judging him as an ultimate player. I'm judging the supposed statement that Winslow helps you win NOW, and thus the Cavs would prefer the Miami trade, and also that he is still a blue chip prospect.

He has never shown any ability to help you win now at the NBA level. He didn't as a rookie. He didn't as a sophomore. His shooting has been awful across the board--not just from 3. That is not what was expected from him coming in. People thought his 3 point shot would struggle but that he would be good in transition, getting to the rim, and be improving at the free throw line and mid range. None of that has happened. He's been abysmal at all across the board. I don't believe that a player like Winslow is still a blue chip prospect after 2 years where his performance at his given weakness has gotten worse since college. He is near RFA, which will make him costly, and he does not look like a franchise player at all. There is still a long ways for him to go, so obviously he can develop into the player people thought, but I don't see any reason why that alone makes him a blue chip prospect when his performances are what they have been. It's like watching Archie Goodwin 2 years in and seeing 0 improvement and some additional holes on top of that and still considering him a blue chip high upside prospect. I don't believe his stock is that high anymore.

When NYK drafted Porzingis with him on the board, the knock was that Winslow helps the Knicks win today. He didn't help Miami win at all according to the numbers. His offense has shown more holes than people thought in college. His D has been great but it was supposed to be.

I wouldn't trade any of Chriss, Bender, Warren, our pick next year, Miami's unprotected pick for him. The big difference I see is that Warren actually helps you win today (as does Chriss despite not being great). With Chriss and Bender, they were supposed to be raw projects with high athletic upside. Chriss did better than expected as a rookie given his profile, and I'm not just considering BPM here--Chriss has better numbers than Winslow overall. He wasn't just a little better overall on offense relative to Winslow. The numbers actually show the gap in offense between Winslow and Chriss is bigger than the gap on defense, and thus Chriss is the better player TODAY. His ORtg-DRtg differential is better, his win share/48 is better, his career steal % is better, his turnover % is better, his PER is better. Bender might have been worse as a rookie than expected, but not by much. He was also a big time project who is too young and weak to be effective in the league as a rookie. Winslow did worse than expected as a rookie and the few games he played as a sophomore. He then got hurt, which also doesn't help his stock. Why on earth would somebody consider his stock "blue chip" as a prospect given all of that, or have faith that he will be more likely to reach his upside than any of those guys?

Using Winslow's rookie year for comparison, since he was injured 80% of this past year, he had a higher WS and WS/48 than Chriss. They had the same differential in ORtg-DRtg. I wouldn't call him a blue chip prospect, and I wouldn't trade either Bender or Chriss for him, but that's likely due in large part to being somewhat attached to them. I think Winslow had about the same impact as Chriss as a rookie, and more impact than Bender, but then got injured in his second year. I won't penalize him for that.

I'm not penalizing him for his injury, I'm penalizing him for the games he played as a sophomore. I'm looking at his career numbers mostly in aggregate, and those 20 games are over 20% of his career games in the NBA. They are very relevant. Things like WS/48 and shooting percentages aren't impacted by missed games.

[bwgood77]

I'm not penalizing him for his injury, I'm penalizing him for the games he played as a sophomore. I'm looking at his career numbers mostly in aggregate, and those 20 games are over 20% of his career games in the NBA. They are very relevant. Things like WS/48 and shooting percentages aren't impacted by missed games.

But things like WS/48 are impacted by nagging injuries. As a rookie, he had a higher WS/48 than Booker did in either year.

[Gorilla Warfare]

Read on Twitter

Here is your daily cryptic Bledsoe tweet. Onward.

It’s probably just related to his 2k18 rating.

[AtheJ415]

I'm not penalizing him for his injury, I'm penalizing him for the games he played as a sophomore. I'm looking at his career numbers mostly in aggregate, and those 20 games are over 20% of his career games in the NBA. They are very relevant. Things like WS/48 and shooting percentages aren't impacted by missed games.

But things like WS/48 are impacted by nagging injuries. As a rookie, he had a higher WS/48 than Booker did in either year.

Yeah, but in that year his team had drastically more wins to share, which impacts WS/48. Booker and the rest of the Suns should have worse WS numbers than him due to the team they play on. Same holds for the start of the 2nd year, even though Miami was bad when he was healthy. In fact, when Miami was bad at almost Phoenix's level (like they were to start his sophomore year), Winslow's WS numbers became negative and drastically worse than Chriss's.

Also, I'm not looking at just WS. ORtg-DRtg, shooting percentages, PER, TO%, Usage, all of it. The overall numbers for Winslow's career do not favor him over Chriss and certainly not over Booker. Bender is the only argument to make, but even then it is a bad one imo because Bender was supposed to be a huge long-term project where as Winslow was supposed to be an immediate contributor.

[NavLDO]

Yeah, I don't see the point for us to give up much of anything for Irving. The Cavs are the team in the bind, not us. After watching the SL, I'd be fine with giving up Chriss, but not Warren or the Miami pick. My deal would be Bledsoe and Chriss/Miami pick, and that is it. If it doesn't get it done, then play out the season, and try and move Knight next year.

I'm disinclined to offer either Miami pick. If we need to move up a couple spots to get our guy in next year's draft, that Miami pick may very well be necessary to that.

So no. I'm just not into the idea of Kyrie at all.

So, my wife really LOVES the Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean Movies...Like to the point that I've seen the first 4 in the series about 20 times each...so when you started the sentence above, my mind did not finish the sentence with "...offer either Miami pick," it ended with "to acquiesce to your request." LOL...sorry, off-topic

[bwgood77]

I'm not penalizing him for his injury, I'm penalizing him for the games he played as a sophomore. I'm looking at his career numbers mostly in aggregate, and those 20 games are over 20% of his career games in the NBA. They are very relevant. Things like WS/48 and shooting percentages aren't impacted by missed games.

But things like WS/48 are impacted by nagging injuries. As a rookie, he had a higher WS/48 than Booker did in either year.

Yeah, but in that year his team had drastically more wins to share, which impacts WS/48. Booker and the rest of the Suns should have worse WS numbers than him due to the team they play on. Same holds for the start of the 2nd year, even though Miami was bad when he was healthy. In fact, when Miami was bad at almost Phoenix's level (like they were to start his sophomore year), Winslow's WS numbers became negative and drastically worse than Chriss's.

Also, I'm not looking at just WS. ORtg-DRtg, shooting percentages, PER, TO%, Usage, all of it. The overall numbers for Winslow's career do not favor him over Chriss and certainly not over Booker. Bender is the only argument to make, but even then it is a bad one imo because Bender was supposed to be a huge long-term project where as Winslow was supposed to be an immediate contributor.

I think it's pretty rare rookies are expected to be much of an immediate contributor. It's also pretty rare that a rookie grades out above avg defensively like Winslow did, so he definitely contributed on that end, right away. But yes, he can't shoot, so yes, that's a problem. He's basically on par with Stanley Johnson so far.

I think it's typically easier to improve on offense than it is on defense though.

[Saberestar]

Saw this posted in the FB group. Thought it was pretty interesting. Basically proved Gambo to be incorrect.

https://soundcloud.com/siriusxmnba/phoenix-suns-guard-josh-jackson-on-being-involved-in-kyrie-irving-trade-rumors

Gambo was right. Jackson has not been involved in any Irving trade.

The person who said that the Suns talked with Jackson to say him that he is not gonna be traded was Ramona Shelburne.

[Kerrsed]

Read on Twitter

Here is your daily cryptic Bledsoe tweet. Onward.

He just found out that the Suns new sponsor for our jerseys is Viagra.

[MilotheSlayer]

Can someone check on Bled? Seems a little off his rocker tonight?

[Kerrsed]

Can someone check on Bled? Seems a little off his rocker tonight?

Yeah, i hate all this cryptic ****. Its like he wants to say something.....but cant.

Read on Twitter

[MilotheSlayer]

Can someone check on Bled? Seems a little off his rocker tonight?

Yeah, i hate all this cryptic ****. Its like he wants to say something.....but cant.

Read on Twitter

Agreed! And you think if it was him getting traded he wouldn't be as cryptic. At the point he is informed he's traded he doesn't owe the FO any type of silence

[Kerrsed]

Can someone check on Bled? Seems a little off his rocker tonight?

Yeah, i hate all this cryptic ****. Its like he wants to say something.....but cant.

Read on Twitter

Agreed! And you think if it was him getting traded he wouldn't be as cryptic. At the point he is informed he's traded he doesn't owe the FO any type of silence

Ehh...... the FO could tell him not to say anything. Deal might not be completely done, but the fact that he is included could be.

Going through his past tweets, he doesnt post cryptic ****.

[matt131]

Yeah, i hate all this cryptic ****. Its like he wants to say something.....but cant.

Read on Twitter

Agreed! And you think if it was him getting traded he wouldn't be as cryptic. At the point he is informed he's traded he doesn't owe the FO any type of silence

Ehh...... the FO could tell him not to say anything. Deal might not be completely done, but the fact that he is included could be.

Going through his past tweets, he doesnt post cryptic ****.

I feel like he wouldn't be hurt if he was going to the Cavs. Maybe NY then? I'd rather he didn't

[matt131]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2726965-kyrie-irving-trade-rumors-cavaliers-pg-reportedly-prefers-move-to-clippers

[SideSwipe]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2726965-kyrie-irving-trade-rumors-cavaliers-pg-reportedly-prefers-move-to-clippers

#PHXPLEASEUPYOUROFFER

Your truly,

Cavs FO

[TOO]

Clippers dont have anything to give. Wont trade DJ/Blake, so that leaves Beverly, Rivers, Dekker? Eww.

[DirtyDez]

1 hour flight to LAX...

Another reason I think that Kareem would've been a Suns' lifer.

[thamadkant]

Bledsoe with the tweets..

Um, is he a fan of another sports team that has lost or something?

What could these 2 cryptic tweets be about!!

[TOO]

Bledsoe with the tweets..

Um, is he a fan of another sports team that has lost or something?

What could these 2 cryptic tweets be about!!

He probably dropped his sandwich on floor.