Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving?

[pidi]

puh, damn all this kyrie blabla.. if they want to trade him, they´ve already traded him by now. if the suns realy want him, than they would have figured out a way to get him.

why not packing the bledsoe/miami´s 5th / chandler / dudley and get another trade done - what we need a pg. than go out and find one there are other teams with talent on theyre roster..

[Qwigglez]

Bledsoe is probably catching up on Game of Thrones and someone died that he wasn't anticipating...

[denial]

His whole life isn't basketball. He's obviously going through a break-up (with a woman... not a basketball team).

[AtheJ415]

His whole life isn't basketball. He's obviously going through a break-up (with a woman... not a basketball team).

Doubt it. Didn't he just get married last month? I don't know what he is tweeting about. My hope as a Suns fan is actually that he has been traded. Whether for Frank N or Irving, it helps the team's future to go younger, and it would give him the chance to play in the playoffs. Even if it was NYK, him and Porzingis is good enough to make it in the horrid east. It would be good for both parties from a basketball perspective.

[Villalobos]

re: that Clippers report. The guy they're quoting in the article doesn't actually say Kyrie wants to go there. It just says he likes LA and is working out there this summer. Unless the guy had more to say outside of the article, they're reading too much into that. If Kyrie really wanted to go there that much he would've had them on his list.

Clippers dont have anything to give. Wont trade DJ/Blake, so that leaves Beverly, Rivers, Dekker? Eww.

They wanted to trade DJ for the 4th pick (supposedly Jerry West is high on Josh Jackson). I think they'd trade him for Kyrie.

Beverly, Dekker (or Harrell), and DJ is a good package. Cavs probably want a pick too. Maybe Jerry West is swatting their hands away from ESPN TradeMachine because they'd either be giving too much or he doesn't think Kyrie is all that great.

[Kerrsed]

I suggest you guys read past Bledsoe tweets. Its crazy because these two tweets are cryptic as ****, yet every other tweet is just a normal straight up tweet. He isnt one of these guys that constantly tweeting about something without including a reference to what he is talking about. These two tweets are unlike every other tweet he has made and thats what makes me really ponder about what it is.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Hope he becomes the Lavar Ball of Gymnastics.

[thamadkant]

Bledsoe with the tweets..

Um, is he a fan of another sports team that has lost or something?

What could these 2 cryptic tweets be about!!

He probably dropped his sandwich on floor.

dunno... maybe his steak... I cant picture Bledsoe eating white carbs, the guy is ripped on and off season.

[NavLDO]

At this point.... doing nothing looks like the best route.... right now. Let the season play out... somebody might get hungry for Bled or Chandler.

It would be prudent to get another year of playing these youngsters to really see what we have. Would suck to throw in a kid on a deal and then have him breakout. They are all incredibly cheap for the upcoming year and continuing bargains till re-sign time.

I'd move Bled and a pick for Kyrie. Thats it. Keep the Cheap Children

So, I've gotta ask, Frank, is it really you? This just doesn't seem like something Frank would consider a 'good idea'. I'm waiting on you to call for McD's head, and start winning now.

Has this last season finally 'pulverized' you into submission? To a point where you feel getting 'on the bus' is better than keep getting 'hit by the bus'? That McD apparently is here to stay for awhile, so you may as well support him?

Just curious...

Your passion as a Sun's fan, of course, has never been in question--staunch as the most die hard fan here--just your 'willingness to see McD's plan through' is a new one on you...looks good...

...of course, this is the point where I'm getting impatient...I want to start the 'upward trend' now. Get Kyrie, but as you say, for Bledsoe and any number of picks is fine with me, but I suspect they want a player, and IF I had to give one up, it would be tough, but Chriss, by a nose...only due to Bender's versatility...but boy, I think Chriss is going to be good...and Bender hasn't shown much...yet...

[NTB]

[NavLDO]

Spoiler:

First i am not a Cavs fan, Second i never said anything about Phoenix trading JJ or your unprotected pick. Not all players are valued the same way by all teams.You say Irving is not that much of an improvement and yet you are saying Bledsoe>>>Dragic(without any question). I dont follow that logic that much. I will agree that Bledsoe is a little better than dragic because he is younger and a better defender but Dragic is not a slouch either. But what i disagree with you is, Irving is superior to Bledsoe. His playoffs performances speaks for itself.
When i said Cavs might prefer Miami heat because Goran can play offball, he can paly the two guard with Rose on the floor and he is way better 3pt shooter than Bledsoe. And chriss and Bender might not even be able to play that much meaningful minutes come playoff time. Winslow is a far better defender who can help them right now. Bam is not a sure thing, i know that. BTW Josh Jackson isn't a sure thing, you should know that too. All i am saying is Miami gives them a win now players with less future but Winslow is a good prospect to have.

I know/knew you wernt. Just had to vent after reading everywhere how our offer is ****, yet the Miami deal is sooooo much better. Wasnt meant to be combative to your post at all. And i did not say that Irving isnt that much of an improvement over Bledsoe. His Age and offense dictate that he is. And im not saying that Bledsoe is lightyears ahead of Dragic, but Bledsoe has the age advantage (Just like Irving does over him), much better defense, but also outputs better stats (in every CAT minus 3PT).

As for Dragic playing off the ball, yeah, Cleveland isnt going to want that. Trust me, we tried that YEARS ago, it was a failure and and he got so frustrated with it he asked to be traded (so we did).

Dissatisfied with his role on the team, Goran Dragic says he’s made up his mind that he’s leaving the Phoenix Suns, preferably before Thursday’s trade deadline.

If not, he has made it clear there is no way he would re-sign with the team after this season.

As Dragic put it, “I don’t trust them anymore.”

The 28-year-old guard, whose points and assists are down considerably from last season, says he doesn’t like his role of “standing in the corner” and wants to go to a team where he can be a true point guard again.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/basketball/dissatisfied-with-role-dragic-asks-suns-for-trade/article23057147/

I also dont understand when it comes to the youngsters (Blue Chips). The idea is they want one for if (WHEN) Lebron leaves. Warren has experience and is a microwave off the bench. I think out of anyone he would have a role if push came to shove on the contending team. He's played starters minutes at both SF and PF and proves he has what it takes. Hell, Chriss spent the entire season as our starting PF last season. But Winslow? Really? His is a SF through and through. How is he going to "help them right now"? When lebron sits for his 5 minutes per game? And Cmon! Winslow has only started in a total of 23 games in BOTH SEASONS COMBINED! I just dont buy that he is a better "Blue Chip Prospect" than any of the guys that we have been offering.

Im just saying, look at a player comparison of all 4 guys and tell me that Winslow is the best guy : http://bkref.com/tiny/qkhaN
And here's the link if you want to try to use Winslows "Better stats" from his rookie season: http://bkref.com/tiny/kMJNs

You didn't have Lebron on your team years ago when you had dragic, did you? When you have lebron on your team, he can mask lot of the teams weaknesses. Warren is a good blue chip prospect but i dont think Phoenix is offering him, are they? I dont know if you watched Winslow's rookie year but times he was given minutes he was a game changer defensively.

And yes he can paly 3 positions very effectively, you can go to the heat board and ask how they value Winslow. He is very much like Josh Jackson as a prospect who can do it all, but i think JJ is a little far ahead offensively. But Winslow showed his defensive prowess right out of the gate which JJ is yet to do.
He is not SF through and through, he is built like a tank. In a small ball he can be played multiple positions and he has got good IQ for the game which Chriss is lacking. Yes i like Winslow better than Chriss or even Bender at the moment because of his defense.

OK, now you are just spewing stuff to try to make your point, with no evidence to back it up. I'll tell you now his offense is not really good enough for the 3, and he can't guard the 5 (sorry, 6'6.5" with 8'8.5" is not going to cut it at the 5). Winslow is an offensive project at this point; Bender is an offensive project as well. The difference being, the Suns have the depth to not rush in Bender, Miami did not, really, and if they did, they really should have focused on his shooting. He entered his 2nd season shooting WORSE than he did his rookie season in his first 9 games, then when he played another 9 gms, no improvement--suspect that was shoulder issue, but that doesn't explain his first 9 gms.

And I don't care how the 'Heat board' values him...we 'value' Bender, Chriss, and Warren like crazy, too...doesn't make them better than they are...

And just because he has great defense, doesn't automatically make him better. That's like me saying "Yes, I like Chriss better at the moment because of his offense." See how that statement is meaningless??

[NavLDO]

Imagine this scenario: TJ is considered a frontrunner for MIP while at the same time JJ is showing he deserves time and fits better with Booker, but they both work best at the 3 and don't seem to work very well together. What's our best play then?

We could obviously keep them both, plan to match any RFA offer for Warren, and do our best to keep them both happy and productive

We could try to trade TJ at the deadline for something centered on draft picks (Celtics don't need him but getting one of the high picks owed to them would be ideal) and/or prospects.

We could try to trade TJ for an upgrade at another position.

We could trade JJ (seems incredibly unlikely).

What else? What would you do?

I don't think it's out of the possibility that TJ wins MIP and JJ wins ROY.

Seriously.

I'd say both are top 5 candidates for each award.

And to answer your question, we keep TJ, resign him, and see how the 2018 draft shakes out. We can either keep him as a 6th man or trade him (once he has been resigned) as he will get more value once he is resigned.

I really think everyone is getting too hung up on positions. We know that Bender can play anywhere from the 3 to the 5; Jackson has been touted as being able to guard 1 thru 4. Warren is 'PF' size, if the reports were accurate about his growth spurt, either last, or the previous, summer when reports were he was over 6'9" and 240, I believe. We already know he can play the 3; with some effort/guidance, he can surely play more 4 than he already has. Chriss has the length to play some small-ball 5. His reach is not great, but his Wingspan/Hgt/Wgt are ok,I believe. Booker cannot guard 3s, as is, but if he can be coached up, and provided he shows desire, he has the hgt/length to be able to, as well.

So, my point with all this is that, who cares who 'starts', and 'where' If the players do, well, sorry JJ, you are a rookie, you lose out this season, but don't worry, you'll get your 28 minutes, or whatever, if he's earned them, so we start - Bledsoe-Booker-Warren-Chriss-Bender, for now. But don't fret Sauce, Chandler, JJ, Ulis, Jones Jr., etc., etc., everyone will get minutes. We have 240 to spread across 9-10 players...some will get 30...some will get 20...but they will indeed, get some, and JJ, being a Rookie, should be thrilled if he averages 20-24MPG his rookie season, IMO.

[BobbieL]

Clippers dont have anything to give. Wont trade DJ/Blake, so that leaves Beverly, Rivers, Dekker? Eww.

I am not sure Beverly can be traded anytime soon with another player. I am not sure if the same as a free agent but I do believe there is a rule that Beverly cannot be traded with other players for certain number of days

As for the Clippers - unless they are giving up Jordan - they have nothing the Cavs would want

I like Beverly for the Suns for the short term - starter and longer term, Evans from Okla State

Clippers; Kyrie
Cavs: Bledsoe and whatever from the Clippers, Dekker and picks maybe
Suns: Beverly, Evans and maybe a guy like Lou Williams to make the numbers work - or Wesley Johnson

[NavLDO]

The irony. Bam has played absolutely 0 minutes with an NBA team, and Winslow is THE WORST OFFENSIVE PLAYER IN BASKETBALL. It's not about minutes. The advanced numbers bear that out. Chriss is much better than Winslow on offense. Bender isn't, but Bender was the youngest player in the NBA last year on a horrible team. Winslow has had a premiere coach and is playing off of better players overall than Phoenix has, while putting up worse numbers. I'm not ignoring his defense. His defense is factored into his overall numbers, and those overall numbers say he helps the opponents win games.

He only played in 18 games. Miami wasn't a good team to start the season. They were 11-30 in the first half. He played in two stretches of 9 games and was battling injuries. It's WAY too early to definitely judge him, just like it's WAY too early to definitely judge Bender, who also had a negative 4 OBPM. But battling injuries and playing 18 games is hardly a good reflection of what type of impact he will provide going forward.

As a rookie he had a BPM of -.6 and Chriss had a BPM of -1.6. Chriss was slightly better on the offensive side and far worse on the defensive side as a rookie. Bam hasn't played but the Miami pick is more than a year away from playing.

I'm not really judging him as an ultimate player. I'm judging the supposed statement that Winslow helps you win NOW, and thus the Cavs would prefer the Miami trade, and also that he is still a blue chip prospect.

He has never shown any ability to help you win now at the NBA level. He didn't as a rookie. He didn't as a sophomore. His shooting has been awful across the board--not just from 3. That is not what was expected from him coming in. People thought his 3 point shot would struggle but that he would be good in transition, getting to the rim, and be improving at the free throw line and mid range. None of that has happened. He's been abysmal at all across the board. I don't believe that a player like Winslow is still a blue chip prospect after 2 years where his performance at his given weakness has gotten worse since college. He is near RFA, which will make him costly, and he does not look like a franchise player at all. There is still a long ways for him to go, so obviously he can develop into the player people thought, but I don't see any reason why that alone makes him a blue chip prospect when his performances are what they have been. It's like watching Archie Goodwin 2 years in and seeing 0 improvement and some additional holes on top of that and still considering him a blue chip high upside prospect. I don't believe his stock is that high anymore.

When NYK drafted Porzingis with him on the board, the knock was that Winslow helps the Knicks win today. He didn't help Miami win at all according to the numbers. His offense has shown more holes than people thought in college. His D has been great but it was supposed to be.

I wouldn't trade any of Chriss, Bender, Warren, our pick next year, Miami's unprotected pick for him. The big difference I see is that Warren actually helps you win today (as does Chriss despite not being great). With Chriss and Bender, they were supposed to be raw projects with high athletic upside. Chriss did better than expected as a rookie given his profile, and I'm not just considering BPM here--Chriss has better numbers than Winslow overall. He wasn't just a little better overall on offense relative to Winslow. The numbers actually show the gap in offense between Winslow and Chriss is bigger than the gap on defense, and thus Chriss is the better player TODAY. His ORtg-DRtg differential is better, his win share/48 is better, his career steal % is better, his turnover % is better, his PER is better. Bender might have been worse as a rookie than expected, but not by much. He was also a big time project who is too young and weak to be effective in the league as a rookie. Winslow did worse than expected as a rookie and the few games he played as a sophomore. He then got hurt, which also doesn't help his stock. Why on earth would somebody consider his stock "blue chip" as a prospect given all of that, or have faith that he will be more likely to reach his upside than any of those guys?

Totally agree. This isn't about judging players, who's going to be better, so on and so forth--this is about the claim that Winslow is 'more prepared', nor more of a 'blue-chip prospect' than Bender, or Chriss, for that matter.

FACT: Winslow has shown to be better on the Defensive end than either of our two players.
FACT: Winslow played 4x as many minutes his rookie season as Bender.
FACT: Chriss has shown to be better on the Offensive end than Winslow.
FACT: Bender's DBPM was .1 higher than Bledsoe, ergo, Bender is better defensively than Bledsoe...wait, what??? Uhhh...ok, just the first part is fact...see how numbers can be deceiving?
FACT: Chriss' DBPM is.3 higher than Bender, ergo, Chriss is better def...wait, I've been down this road before...

Spouting ONE stat does not make the case, which is why when I've been using stats, I've used 3 to 4 to make my case,and even then, they are still just stats, and cannot tell the wholes story.

[King4Day]

Saw this posted in the FB group. Thought it was pretty interesting. Basically proved Gambo to be incorrect.

https://soundcloud.com/siriusxmnba/phoenix-suns-guard-josh-jackson-on-being-involved-in-kyrie-irving-trade-rumors

Gambo was right. Jackson has not been involved in any Irving trade.

The person who said that the Suns talked with Jackson to say him that he is not gonna be traded was Ramona Shelburne.

Regardless, Gambo was wrong as he posted the news first.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[NTB]

Read on Twitter

[King4Day]

Clippers dont have anything to give. Wont trade DJ/Blake, so that leaves Beverly, Rivers, Dekker? Eww.

I am not sure Beverly can be traded anytime soon with another player. I am not sure if the same as a free agent but I do believe there is a rule that Beverly cannot be traded with other players for certain number of days

As for the Clippers - unless they are giving up Jordan - they have nothing the Cavs would want

I like Beverly for the Suns for the short term - starter and longer term, Evans from Ohio State

Clippers; Kyrie
Cavs: Bledsoe and whatever from the Clippers, Dekker and picks maybe
Suns: Beverly, Evans and maybe a guy like Lou Williams to make the numbers work - or Wesley Johnson

That's too much for the Clips to give up. The pieces the Clips got in the trade actually helps better balance that team out. Dealing for another ball happy PG and losing all that depth will keep them from being contenders again. I think the current Clipper team can contend for a top 4 or 5 spot in the West (if healthy)

[NavLDO]

But things like WS/48 are impacted by nagging injuries. As a rookie, he had a higher WS/48 than Booker did in either year.

Yeah, but in that year his team had drastically more wins to share, which impacts WS/48. Booker and the rest of the Suns should have worse WS numbers than him due to the team they play on. Same holds for the start of the 2nd year, even though Miami was bad when he was healthy. In fact, when Miami was bad at almost Phoenix's level (like they were to start his sophomore year), Winslow's WS numbers became negative and drastically worse than Chriss's.

Also, I'm not looking at just WS. ORtg-DRtg, shooting percentages, PER, TO%, Usage, all of it. The overall numbers for Winslow's career do not favor him over Chriss and certainly not over Booker. Bender is the only argument to make, but even then it is a bad one imo because Bender was supposed to be a huge long-term project where as Winslow was supposed to be an immediate contributor.

I think it's pretty rare rookies are expected to be much of an immediate contributor. It's also pretty rare that a rookie grades out above avg defensively like Winslow did, so he definitely contributed on that end, right away. But yes, he can't shoot, so yes, that's a problem. He's basically on par with Stanley Johnson so far.

I think it's typically easier to improve on offense than it is on defense though.

You and AtheJ are having an excellent Debate; each bringing up great points. Sorry for the interruption, but I thought it was interesting that when I looked at the entire NBA, listed by OBPM, there were some names down there that, considering their 'hype', 'status', and heck, even 'contract', for some, really have no business being down -3.0 or lower:

Trey Lyles
Brandon Ingram
Jaylen Brown
Alec Burks (good reason for his declining minutes since 2014)
Jahlil Okafor (surprise, right?)
Noah Vonleh
Chandler Parsons

Players with Offsetting DBPM of 1 or higher:
Jerami Grant (Close enough...DBPM of .9)
Len
Wesley Johnson
Kriss Dunn
the 'aforementioned-by-BW'- Stanimal
MCW
Biyombo
Motiejunas

Of course, there are others...these are the ones that jumped out at me.

One item I will add though, is that I disagree that it's 'pretty rare' for rookies to grade out above avg defensively; many rookies that were defensively minded in college come in and perform/grade out well defensively in their rookie seasons:

Nogueria
Gobert
O'Quinn
Noel
Giannis
Embiid
Dunn

...and even Chriss graded out as even, and I do not believe he was highly touted for his defense.

So, point is, it's not rare at all, unless your point was rookies are more likely to come in more 'offensively sound' than 'defensively sound' in their play. That, I would agree with...but not that it's rare for rookies to come in and post positive numbers defensively.

You may now continue your regularly scheduled programming

[jredsaz]

Can someone check on Bled? Seems a little off his rocker tonight?

Yeah, i hate all this cryptic ****. Its like he wants to say something.....but cant.

Read on Twitter

He might be pissed that he was completely left out of the new uniform unveiling.

[michaelscarn]

Can someone check on Bled? Seems a little off his rocker tonight?

Yeah, i hate all this cryptic ****. Its like he wants to say something.....but cant.

Read on Twitter

He might be pissed that he was completely left out of the new uniform unveiling.

This is what I was thinking lol