Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving?

[NavLDO]

Lay off the coffee swabbie

No doubt...I should have realized I was fighting a losing battle once I provided evidence proving the the 'Rare' statement to False, and then 'Goalposts' started 'moving' with Disclaimers and Qualifiers.

[King4Day]

The board probably would have been slower weeks ago had the Irving news not come out.

[NavLDO]

PFs?? No, nice try, there were 4 of 30 that were 'Wings' when they came into the league...I was just using YOUR 'qualifier'...players that came into the league as "Wings'...but nice try to flip that around...I'm sure anyone bothering to read this can see the FLAW in YOUR argument, there...and I quote "It is pretty rare for a rookie wing to be good defensively." Care to retract that??? Of course not...you'll find a 'disclaimer' in there like you were obviously talking about "Wings" that stayed "Wings"

Expand parameters??? You mean to current NBA players? I thought that is what we were talking about here..."It is pretty rare for a rookie wing to be good defensively." Oh...was that for only 2017 rookies? No...wait...that wouldn't include Winslow...Oh, 2016 Rookies Only?? 2016 AND 2017 rookies???? Rookies from 2012 to 2017??? 2010 to 2017??? Please,dolet me know...Nice try though...

And flawed??? I assumed we were talking about NBA players here...oh, I see, disclaimer #4, it's now #1-Rookies with positive D numbers, #2-Rookie 'Wings' with Positive D numbers, #3-Rookie 'Wings' that ONLY came into the league between "X Year" and, when, the Present? And now, Disclaimer #4 everyone, whew...make sure I get this right...Rookie 'Wings' that came into the NBA between "X Year" and the Present, that may, or may NOT still be in the NBA...

So, those are the ones we are comparing to Justice Winslow?? Those are the 'Rare' ones...OK, got it, you win. That is pretty rare for a Rookie 'Wing' to come into the NBA only during your specified time frame that may not even still be in the NBA,with positive D numbers...Yep...pretty rare...

...you know what else is...anyone that makes it into the NBA that actually starts more than 10 games...or...scores more than 25 in a game...or...plays more than 50 games in the NBA...lots of things are 'Rare' in the NBA, if you are going to include all those that FAIL in the NBA...that's like saying water is wet...wow...great insight...I assumed we were talking about ACTUAL NBA players, here, you know, guys on my list that actually played more than 100 minutes in the league...

I'm not going to retract it and agree with faulty arguments. If you don't understand my argument I can't really discuss further. It's a pointless debate. It's rare rookie wings are good defensively. If you find 20 over the last 20 years that enforces the rarity.

If you don't understand why your argument is flawed, then it's not worth continuing. 1,200 players have been drafted over the last 20 years. Others undrafted that became rookies. You are looking at a pool of the ones out of those players who became successful nba players as a starting point (huge flaw) and came up with a list of all stars and defensive specialists.

You are right, I'm glad we've finally come to an agreement. It's pointless to continue to argue a point, when you keep changing the parameters of what you initially said...I can't keep up...

My argument isn't flawed, not one bit. Your attempting to lump Winslow, a top 5 pick in the NBA, IN with all these others, is EXTREMELY flawed, in the 1st place, so shame on you for lumping a top prospect--one that has a 95% chance or better of succeeding in this league over those undrafted types you speak of, and are comparing him to them, and using that to make a point in your debate. Again, like I said, that's not any great 'insight', that's like saying water is wet.

So, when you say "It's also extremely rare that a rookie grades out above avg defensively like Winslow did..." you did not imply, non-Centers, or ONLY 'Wings', or ONLY rookies drafted (or undrafted) between a certain time period...

...but what any reasonable person WOULD infer from that statement, is that you meant that it is 'extremely rare' that a Rookie NBAer, one that has a legitimate shot at sticking in the NBA as a player in some capacity, 'grades out above avg defensively like Winslow did...'

Honestly, BW, you are thinking that if you continue to attempt try to confuse and confound this debate by, 1) adding conditions,and disclaimers, and qualifiers, and expanding or contracting parameters,and 2) attempting to turn it around on me as if argument is 'flawed', that somehow, you can walk away from this debate as though your statement is 'true', and I, somehow, am wrong.

I simply provided a list a NBA players that 'graded out above avg defensively like Winslow did...', about 7, that were drafted since 2012...on PG,one 'Wing' and yes, 5 'Bigs' . But then came the 'qualifiers', and I went through the list of current NBA 'Wings' that were good 'defensively' this year, and thought they might have been as rookies, and compiled that list. There are likely 'Wings' that had an off-year defensively in 2017, that may very well have had a great defensive rookie year...IDK. So, that list of 30, of which only 2-3 are really old,doesn't even include PGs,or PFs, or Cs.

But nope! "It's also extremely rare that a rookie grades out above avg defensively like Winslow did..."

I hate to tell you, BW, but you can try to throw out as many 'conditions' and 'qualifiers' as you want, but the point is, your statement, at face value, is simply FALSE, and you are just too stubborn, or too proud to admit it. My argument, research, posts aside...none of that matters...I could have (which I didn't, but you go on ahead and keep believing I did) 'tanked-up' my 'research methods' (which ended up being dictated by YOURs & Mab2039's added 'conditions' to the debate) all day long, but in the end, what I argued, was simple, until you all kept 'moving goalposts' so you could be 'right'. Itis not that rare...and certainly not 'EXTREMELY' rare for a rookie to come into the NBA and play well defensively right off the bat.

And the best part of ALL this BW, is you accused me of listing some of the best 'rim protectors' in the league in my argument, yet then in the same breath, you try to equate Winslow, who's draft profile reads:

"Winslow's best attribute as a NBA prospect is clearly his defense, which has been his calling card ever since he first started making a name for himself with USA Basketball as a 16-year old beating up on older players at the FIBA U17 World Championship...

...as being unusually better as a Rookie than almost any other rookie to come into the NBA (BTW, that's what 'extremely rare' means)...

[Jarlaxle0204]

My argument isn't flawed, not one bit. Your attempting to lump Winslow, a top 5 pick in the NBA, IN with all these others, is EXTREMELY flawed, in the 1st place, so shame on you for lumping a top prospect--one that has a 95% chance or better of succeeding in this league over those undrafted types you speak of, and are comparing him to them, and using that to make a point in your debate. Again, like I said, that's not any great 'insight', that's like saying water is wet.

Not trying to nitpick or get in the middle here but wasn't Winslow picked at 10?

[bwgood77]

Not trying to nitpick or get in the middle here but wasn't Winslow picked at 10?

Yes, he was.

[RaisingArizona]

Wow... Not even going to think about getting caught up in that.


















Anyways, IBTL.

[RunDogGun]

Wow, almost 100 pages and nothing. Hopefully the next hundred will be about something tangible.