How good is Jokic? [Poll added]

[Nuggets_Talk]

If you bothered to watch these videos you posted you would know that most of the time Jokic wasn't guarding Towns and the other way around so comparing them head to head is meaningless. Comparing their stats in a limited amount of games is also meaningless.

If Towns is such an incredible player why is he at the bottom of the west ? Maybe he should try and get those meaningless assists an see if it gets him past 30 wins. That super role player Jokic leads the top 4 NBA offense and what does the alleged superstar towns do? Towns is a great player but your disrespect to Jokic is the only thing that is laughable here.

I did watch them, did you? How many and 1's did Towns draw on Jokic? How many tip dunks? How many times did he blow right by him, shoot in his face, or drop a turnaround on him like Kobe? Sorry if every single embarrassment cant be on Jokic and Nurkic/Faried/Plumlee had to get some nuts dropped on their face too, but Jokic got MORE than his share. Watch the second video, the nuggets should have thrown in the towel for Jokic Rocky 4 style to save him from the embarrassment. Blowing by him, dunking on him, shooting over him, tip dunking over him, swatting his shot...it is embarrassing. Its 90% Towns on Jokic crime and I feel bad for the poor fella.

Yeah, the nuggets were world beaters! The wolves had the youngest team in the league and the third head coach in 3 years. You better get all you can out of your "yeah but the wolves are bad!" stance because the wolves will be significantly better than the nuggets. Are you seriously trying to prop your argument on what a winner Jokic is on the sub .500 nuggets?

The only way Jokic is ever going to see the all star game is if Towns feels bad for him and lets him valet his car.

Like I said, one is a nice player who might sneak into an all star game at some point. The other is on a first ballot HOF trajectory and the only "peers" he has statistically are the likes of Shaq, Olajuwon, Duncan etc.

Man you sound really upset and worried.
Kat is a good player - no need to freak out. He will be fine this year.

[John Murdoch]

In fantasy i have him ranked in the top 10

[Johnny Firpo]

I dont hate euro players at all, I am simply mocking the laughable notion that Towns and Jokic are even similar prospects. There isnt a single GM in this league who takes Jokic over Towns, NOT ONE. Arturas Karnisovas would ship Jokic off to MN for Towns before Thibs sobered up if he had the chance and never look back.

Dude, Jokic as a starter averaged 18 points, 10 boards, and 5 assists, only a handful of players in the history of the game did that.

Some tidbits after his first season:

1: Nikola Jokic's PER is the highest out of any European rookie in NBA history not named Sabonis (who happened to be 31)
2: Requiring at least 1000 minutes played Jokic led all centers in both BPM and RPM in the 2015-16 season.
3: Nikola Jokic has the highest AST% for a rookie center in the 3 point shooting era.
4: Nikola Jokic is the first Rookie in History to average at least 20 points, 15 rebounds, 5 assists and 2 steals per 100 possessions.
5: Out of all players drafted in 2014 Jokic leads all sophomores in PER, WS, WS/48, BPM, RPM, and VORP. (Obviously as a rookie)
6: Requiring at least 1000 minutes played Jokic's rookie season leads all second round rookies ever in PER, BPM, WS/48, and VORP.
7: Requiring at least 50 games played, and at least 1000 minutes played Jokic and KAT are one of 5 pairs of rookies to average a PER of 20.5 or greater in the 3 point era. The others are:
1979-80: Larry Bird 20.5, Magic Johnson 20.6
1984-85: Michael Jordan 25.8, Hakeem Olajuwon 21.1
1992-93: ShaquilleO'Neal 22.8, Alonzo Mourning 20.8
2012-13: Anthony Davis 21.7, Andre Drummond 21.6
2015-16: Karl Anthony-Towns 22.5, Nikola Jokic 21.5

That was after his first season, and he was even more dominant in his second year. PER 36, he put up 22/13/6/1/1 on 64%TS, and actually averaged close to that in the last 30 or so games. Saying he is not close to Towns is ridiculous, considering his PER 36 averages, his efficiency, and the fact that he destroys Towns in most advanced stats. You have to realize that your emotions cloud your judgment.

[Nuggets_Talk]

Wow. What a smug response. Its sad that a near 10 year RealGM member feels the need to communicate in this manner.

He obviously has issues with European players, Realgm is full of Euro haters. There is no other explanation for this heated reaction. He got triggered because he hates Euros. Well, or he is a huge Towns homer. Maybe a combination of both. And it's not like taking Towns is a bad answer either, but suggesting that Jokic is not close in terms of talent is ridiculous. He is just very different in a lot of aspects, but just as unique. Same goes for Porzingis and Embiid. They all have Hall of Fame potential, all four of them, and yes, from a scoring standpoint, Towns is probably the best at this point, but that is only one facet of the game.

I dont hate euro players at all, I am simply mocking the laughable notion that Towns and Jokic are even similar prospects. There isnt a single GM in this league who takes Jokic over Towns, NOT ONE. Arturas Karnisovas would ship Jokic off to MN for Towns before Thibs sobered up if he had the chance and never look back.

Just curious how you know what all 30 GMs would do?

I could see you knowing maybe 7 or 8 of them, but all 30? Impressive.

[Rashoismydad]

The amount of smug and condescension you've managed to pack in this horrible post is pretty astronomical. Are you a child? You can have conversation/debate without saying childish crap like 'poor fella' and 'The only way Jokic is ever going to see the all star game is if Towns feels bad for him and lets him valet his car'. Saying stuff like that makes you sound defensive and quite frankly, insecure (which im sure you are).

I like how you try to use four games (which were split 2-2 LOL) as end all be alls for comparing their seasons. Either you know that advanced stats empirically favor Jokic, or you're just casual enough to not know what advanced metrics mean. I'm guessing its the latter. And your justification for the Wolves having won less games, when as a matter of fact the Nuggets played their younger players more minutes than the wolves, just makes you look like an ignoramus douchnozzle.

Jokic had a better season than Towns and it doesn't take a genius to realize this. Get triggered.

Sorry I cant take people who worship advanced stats seriously. If there wasnt a sect pushing this ridiculous notion that Jokic is better than Towns I wouldnt feel the need to mock it so thoroughly.

Maybe you should take the 2-2 argument to the cult members who tried to preach Jokic was better because of team success on the sub .500 nuggets? Shouldnt his greatness propelled them to better than a split with the lowly wolves?

I love when people suggest I cant understand advanced metrics because it highlights their projection. These same people cant recognize how the metrics are flawed and the team around the player and role matter.

The nuggets played their youth more?!? 2 of their top 3 minutes played went to Gallinari and Chandler and Jameer Nelson got the bulk of their PG minutes. Look at the wolves, Towns/Wiggins/Lavine were far and away the highest MPG players on the team, and not in supplementary roles either.

Jokic didnt have a better season than Towns and you should be embarrassed for allowing those words to be attributed to you. Towns became the youngest player to ever get 2000 points and 1000 rebounds (something Jokic will never do) while throwing in 100+ 3s as icing. They should really amend the stories written about it on all the national basketball sites and inform everybody that it wasnt as good as Jokics 28 MPG role player season.

[OptionZero]

Instead of whining back and forth about 2 young contests in a juvenile pissing contest, let's take a step back and think bigger picture

Passing from a big is a really nice skill for a coach to have at his disposal on offense. It lets you take some strain off your primary ball handlers and lets you weaponize shooters as screeners if they're willing to eat some bumps (ala curry/klay), plus forces your smalls to move their ass on offense instead of standing around . . . call it motivation to move. Also, a big that can't shoot can find use on offense if he can just master the DHO game and set good screens, throw some backdoors. Obviously you want freaks like AD who do everything, but even an athletically limited guy like Bogut of a couple years ago was very useful because he set . . .. aggressive screens in PnR and DHO and was a willing passer

OTOH, that passing is only useful if you can actually put it on the floor, which means your passing big better be able to defend, otherwise he's just leaking points on that end.

This is why I think relatively small differences in passing skill (i.e. an A+ passer versus a B+ passer) aren't that important compared to other big man responsibilities, like rim protection, pick and roll defense, and rebounding. At that point, a guy that can make one or two more passes than another good passer is just a luxury compared to getting more in other areas.

For this reason, if you call Jokic a better passer, I think Towns is a cleaner fit. He works in any system because he projects as not only a "plus" on both offense and defense, but has a dominating skill (beast inside), useful secondary skill (floor spacing w/o ball), and defensive versatility (blocks shots and switchability)

Jokic is young enough to improve on the defensive end but i don't think anyone projects him to be anywhere near Towns defensively. This doesn't mean he's not good, just that to maximize him you need to make careful roster decisions. You need basically Millsap or Draymond next to him, a big that does alot on defense AND spaces the floor.

So both are good, Towns is just an easier fit on teams. Bear in mind neither is a good defender ATM, but Towns has shown more

[Infinite Llamas]

How come people are trashing Jokic's team record when it blew Town's team out of the water? Minnesota arguably had more talent and a better coach but Denver was a better team clearly. Where are the people calling for Towns head that he couldn't lead his team to the playoffs?

I seriously think that if you swap their draft position, they would be looked at very differently. People get so caught up on the draft slot. Just like Kyrie and Isaiah. They're so close in skill but a gulf separates them in draft position and that'll always be at the back of some peoples minds

[Rashoismydad]

Just curious how you know what all 30 GMs would do?

I could see you knowing maybe 7 or 8 of them, but all 30? Impressive.

Because im friends with reality, while it appears most of you have been shunned.

Its fun to sit back and use per36 numbers for the guy who cant stay on the court for 28 minutes. Its fun to rely *solely* on flawed metrics to make your case. Its fun to pretend Jokics role player requirements within the team is the same as KATs high usage alpha star role.

Dont worry, Brad Miller got way over rated at one point because he could throw a nifty pass from the high post too. The obsession with big men who pass it is the only reason this conversation is taking place. I have no concerns about putting all these thoughts down and having them here to be looked back on, in fact im counting on it for some good laughs in a year or so. Im sure back in the day Blazer fans wanted to compare Lamarcus Aldridge to Tim Duncan and could find some stat to attempt to back it.

[Nuggets_Talk]

Instead of whining back and forth about 2 young contests in a juvenile pissing contest, let's take a step back and think bigger picture

Passing from a big is a really nice skill for a coach to have at his disposal on offense. It lets you take some strain off your primary ball handlers and lets you weaponize shooters as screeners if they're willing to eat some bumps (ala curry/klay), plus forces your smalls to move their ass on offense instead of standing around . . . call it motivation to move. Also, a big that can't shoot can find use on offense if he can just master the DHO game and set good screens, throw some backdoors. Obviously you want freaks like AD who do everything, but even an athletically limited guy like Bogut of a couple years ago was very useful because he set . . .. aggressive screens in PnR and DHO and was a willing passer

OTOH, that passing is only useful if you can actually put it on the floor, which means your passing big better be able to defend, otherwise he's just leaking points on that end.

This is why I think relatively small differences in passing skill (i.e. an A+ passer versus a B+ passer) aren't that important compared to other big man responsibilities, like rim protection, pick and roll defense, and rebounding. At that point, a guy that can make one or two more passes than another good passer is just a luxury compared to getting more in other areas.

For this reason, if you call Jokic a better passer, I think Towns is a cleaner fit. He works in any system because he projects as not only a "plus" on both offense and defense, but has a dominating skill (beast inside), useful secondary skill (floor spacing w/o ball), and defensive versatility (blocks shots and switchability)

Jokic is young enough to improve on the defensive end but i don't think anyone projects him to be anywhere near Towns defensively. This doesn't mean he's not good, just that to maximize him you need to make careful roster decisions. You need basically Millsap or Draymond next to him, a big that does alot on defense AND spaces the floor.

So both are good, Towns is just an easier fit on teams. Bear in mind neither is a good defender ATM, but Towns has shown more

I'm confused.

All the stats in the thread say kat is horrible defensively. But then you say jokic may never improve defensively to get to Kat's level?

Which is it?

[Nuggets_Talk]

How come people are trashing Jokic's team record when it blew Town's team out of the water? Minnesota arguably had more talent and a better coach but Denver was a better team clearly. Where are the people calling for Towns head that he couldn't lead his team to the playoffs?

I seriously think that if you swap their draft position, they would be looked at very differently. People get so caught up on the draft slot. Just like Kyrie and Isaiah. They're so close in skill but a gulf separates them in draft position and that'll always be at the back of some peoples minds

Well said

I love the "sub .500 nuggets". Like 40 wins vs 41 wins means anything.

I'm also fairly sure every wolves fan said in the summer of 2016 they would have a better record than us last year.

[Nuggets_Talk]

Just curious how you know what all 30 GMs would do?

I could see you knowing maybe 7 or 8 of them, but all 30? Impressive.

Because im friends with reality, while it appears most of you have been shunned.

Its fun to sit back and use per36 numbers for the guy who cant stay on the court for 28 minutes. Its fun to rely *solely* on flawed metrics to make your case. Its fun to pretend Jokics role player requirements within the team is the same as KATs high usage alpha star role.

Dont worry, Brad Miller got way over rated at one point because he could throw a nifty pass from the high post too. The obsession with big men who pass it is the only reason this conversation is taking place. I have no concerns about putting all these thoughts down and having them here to be looked back on, in fact im counting on it for some good laughs in a year or so. Im sure back in the day Blazer fans wanted to compare Lamarcus Aldridge to Tim Duncan and could find some stat to attempt to back it.

Ok, just so we are clear you don't actually know what all 30 GMs would do then?

[Rashoismydad]

How come people are trashing Jokic's team record when it blew Town's team out of the water? Minnesota arguably had more talent and a better coach but Denver was a better team clearly. Where are the people calling for Towns head that he couldn't lead his team to the playoffs?

I seriously think that if you swap their draft position, they would be looked at very differently. People get so caught up on the draft slot. Just like Kyrie and Isaiah. They're so close in skill but a gulf separates them in draft position and that'll always be at the back of some peoples minds

Maybe because wins are a team stat and not an individual stat? While Wiggins and Lavine were great offensive talents they both provided little else and in a team defense concept were atrocious. Look at the number of games the wolves lead by double digits and subsequently lost. The advanced stats cult members wont recognize that going on advanced stats the wolves should have won significantly more games because it doesnt suit their argument. This is where reality intervenes, and inexperience and youth impacts the real world W/L column while letting the advanced stats live in their fantasy of what could/should be. An advanced stat doesnt account for making a dumb young player mistake at a crucial part of the game, it merely sums up the total and paints a distorted picture.

As for draft position, this argument only holds water for a short period. Nobody is holding onto Kyrie being better than Kawhi because one is drafted higher. Nobody didnt recognize Manus ability because he was a second rounder. Guys drafted lower have lower expectations, this is logical, theres a reason they were picked lower. But it is something that becomes a non issue once a player shows himself in the NBA. My not recognizing Jokic as being at KATs level has nothing to do with draft position and everything to do with talent and ability. I will repeat again, one is on a sure fire first ballot HOF trajectory, the youngest to ever hit 2000/1000, and statistically unmatched by any big outside of all time greats like Duncan and Shaq. The other cant get on the court for 28 minutes a game in his second season but due to a passing mentality which nets him a few extra assists and pads advanced stats is somehow mentioned in the same breath by some of you.

[Sharkboy242]

The amount of smug and condescension you've managed to pack in this horrible post is pretty astronomical. Are you a child? You can have conversation/debate without saying childish crap like 'poor fella' and 'The only way Jokic is ever going to see the all star game is if Towns feels bad for him and lets him valet his car'. Saying stuff like that makes you sound defensive and quite frankly, insecure (which im sure you are).

I like how you try to use four games (which were split 2-2 LOL) as end all be alls for comparing their seasons. Either you know that advanced stats empirically favor Jokic, or you're just casual enough to not know what advanced metrics mean. I'm guessing its the latter. And your justification for the Wolves having won less games, when as a matter of fact the Nuggets played their younger players more minutes than the wolves, just makes you look like an ignoramus douchnozzle.

Jokic had a better season than Towns and it doesn't take a genius to realize this. Get triggered.

Sorry I cant take people who worship advanced stats seriously. If there wasnt a sect pushing this ridiculous notion that Jokic is better than Towns I wouldnt feel the need to mock it so thoroughly.

Maybe you should take the 2-2 argument to the cult members who tried to preach Jokic was better because of team success on the sub .500 nuggets? Shouldnt his greatness propelled them to better than a split with the lowly wolves?

I love when people suggest I cant understand advanced metrics because it highlights their projection. These same people cant recognize how the metrics are flawed and the team around the player and role matter.

The nuggets played their youth more?!? 2 of their top 3 minutes played went to Gallinari and Chandler and Jameer Nelson got the bulk of their PG minutes. Look at the wolves, Towns/Wiggins/Lavine were far and away the highest MPG players on the team, and not in supplementary roles either.

Jokic didnt have a better season than Towns and you should be embarrassed for allowing those words to be attributed to you. Towns became the youngest player to ever get 2000 points and 1000 rebounds (something Jokic will never do) while throwing in 100+ 3s as icing. They should really amend the stories written about it on all the national basketball sites and inform everybody that it wasnt as good as Jokics 28 MPG role player season.

Sorry I cant take people who worship advanced stats seriously. If there wasnt a sect pushing this ridiculous notion that Jokic is better than Towns I wouldnt feel the need to mock it so thoroughly.

Go ahead and mock it, it just makes you look like a triggered little man-child. Jokic isn't a bad person so the fact that you feel the need to disparage his character says a lot about the kind of person you are.

Maybe you should take the 2-2 argument to the cult members who tried to preach Jokic was better because of team success on the sub .500 nuggets? Shouldnt his greatness propelled them to better than a split with the lowly wolves?

This is a totally moot point. By the same token the Cavs wen't 1-1 against the Nuggets: shouldnt Lebron's greatness propelled them to better than a split with the lowly Nuggets?

I love when people suggest I cant understand advanced metrics because it highlights their projection. These same people cant recognize how the metrics are flawed and the team around the player and role matter.

Projection? I am perfectly capable of understanding the shortcomings of advanced metrics and so are most people. No one here has made extraordinary claims with regards to Jokic and KAT. One had an empirically better season in terms of advanced stats; one had a better season in terms of raw overall stats. No one is debating this, we're merely extrapolating from there. Then there are people like you who are so appalled by the notion that advanced stats say one player is clearly better than the other. I am not sure why that fact is so appalling to you. Its like your autistic mind cant fathom the fact that someone who doesn't jump high and run fast, can still be elite in the NBA.

[Rashoismydad]

Ok, just so we are clear you don't actually know what all 30 GMs would do then?

http://www.nba.com/gmsurvey/2016

Why did GMs overwhelming choose Towns as the player to build around last season and Jokic didnt even get an honorable mention?

Other names on the list?
Kevin Durant, Lebron James, Curry, westbrook, kawhi, AD

No Jokic?!?

But all the advanced stats cult members told me even his rookie year was better than Towns! I mean, look at his per36 numbers!

When the GM survey comes out this year the story will be the same. Giannis and Embiid will be listed and Jokic wont even be an honorable mention.

[Sharkboy242]

How come people are trashing Jokic's team record when it blew Town's team out of the water? Minnesota arguably had more talent and a better coach but Denver was a better team clearly. Where are the people calling for Towns head that he couldn't lead his team to the playoffs?

I seriously think that if you swap their draft position, they would be looked at very differently. People get so caught up on the draft slot. Just like Kyrie and Isaiah. They're so close in skill but a gulf separates them in draft position and that'll always be at the back of some peoples minds

I think it can more accurately be attributed to athleticism. There is definitely a bias against white players and especially euros--their ceiling is considered lower because they don't appear to be super athletic.

[Prez]

I love how advanced metrics are something a player "pads" now. Yeah, Jokic just "padded" his way to absolutely dominating every impact metric imaginable. RAPM, RPM, net on/off, net rating, BPM, literally every single metric that sheds light on how much a player impacts the game when he's on the floor...Jokic comes out on top, absolutely crushing it. But nah, just stat padding.

The Nuggets in the 25 games before they locked in Jokic as the starter...#18 offense in the league. In the 57 games since he took over, they literally had the best offense in the entire league. It's funny, it's almost like Jokic's advanced stat padding actually worked.

[walk with me]

Jokic is slowly becoming the most over rated player in my lifetime

[Sharkboy242]

Jokic is slowly becoming the most over rated player in my lifetime

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nikola-jokic-is-suddenly-one-of-the-best-young-nba-players-of-all-time/

Its crazy how facts work, I know.

[Rashoismydad]

Sorry I cant take people who worship advanced stats seriously. If there wasnt a sect pushing this ridiculous notion that Jokic is better than Towns I wouldnt feel the need to mock it so thoroughly.

Go ahead and mock it, it just makes you look like a triggered little man-child. Jokic isn't a bad person so the fact that you feel the need to disparage his character says a lot about the kind of person you are.

Maybe you should take the 2-2 argument to the cult members who tried to preach Jokic was better because of team success on the sub .500 nuggets? Shouldnt his greatness propelled them to better than a split with the lowly wolves?

This is a totally moot point. By the same token the Cavs wen't 1-1 against the Nuggets: shouldnt Lebron's greatness propelled them to better than a split with the lowly Nuggets?

I love when people suggest I cant understand advanced metrics because it highlights their projection. These same people cant recognize how the metrics are flawed and the team around the player and role matter.

Projection? I am perfectly capable of understanding the shortcomings of advanced metrics and so are most people. No one here has made extraordinary claims with regards to Jokic and KAT. One had an empirically better season in terms of advanced stats; one had a better season in terms of raw overall stats. No one is debating this, we're merely extrapolating from there. Then there are people like you who are so appalled by the notion that advanced stats say one player is clearly better than the other. I am not sure why that fact is so appalling to you. Its like your autistic mind cant fathom the fact that someone who doesn't jump high and run fast, can still be elite in the NBA.

Im not disparaging Jokic and have nothing against him, my mocking is directed solely at the confused kids who try to pump him up as more than he is.

I agree its a stupid argument, which is why I didnt bring up their records and mocked the notion of it.

I disagree with the formulas of many advanced stats and therefor disagree with their determinations. I simply dont lend credence to "advanced stats say this" because the logic behind many of them are flawed in trying to quantify team based events and turn them into individual numbers.

Kevin Durants had a net DBPM of 1.2 over *9* seasons with OKC, so basically an average of 0.13 DPM, with a one time high of 1.4 and never above 1 in any other season.

Last year it was 2.6.

Is this because Durant suddenly became a completely different player? Just out of nowhere improved astronomically in his TENTH season? GTFO LOL. Its because the stats you want to use to preach Jokic>Towns are flawed trash which relies heavily on the team and role.

[walk with me]

Jokic is slowly becoming the most over rated player in my lifetime

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nikola-jokic-is-suddenly-one-of-the-best-young-nba-players-of-all-time/

Its crazy how facts work, I know.

Crazy how people believe stats so blindly.... I guess he'll finish off better then Kareem based on stats