How good is Jokic? [Poll added]

[Screwston]

I love the idea that the depth of your basketball analysis doesnt go beyond ppg.

and I would bet there are TONS of nba "fans" who think this way.

Don't need it for this particular matter. I don't need to explain to you why James Harden is better than DeRozan n Klay Thompson, thats just waste of time.

yeah because harden is better than derozen, therefore ppg is sufficient for all debates.

makes sense. logic and reasoning 101.

yea Denver fans usually make alot of sense, just like when they were arguing that Peyton in his last year, where he ranked like 20 something QB in the league, was better than Aaron Rodgers.

[CometGM]

This is the stuff I dont get. I totally get why someone would take KAT over Jokic. But saying stuff like its a crazy notion to even think about taking Jokic or that its not even debatable at this point just shows that youre too biased towards KAT or you havent watched much of Jokic.

It's one thing some of you guys saying, "way better advanced stats", "impact", etc.., so let's really break it down. Let's see who really had the better season. Let's go stat by stat...

I'm not gonna waste my time even mentioning the traditional stats. Towns blows Jokic out of the water. No comparison. Almost enough to not make you need to look at advanced stats, but you know what, let's look at them:

Let's look at the player comparisons from basketball-reference.com



http://bkref.com/tiny/vILyb (basketball-reference.com player comparison)

In the Advanced Stats category:
I see Jokic ahead in PER, TS%, ORB%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, WS/48, OBPM, DBPM, BPM
I see Towns ahead in 3PAr, FTr, DRB%, BLK%, lower TOV%, USG%, OWS, DWS, WS

Now tell me where you see that Jokic is blowing Towns out of the water in most advanced stats?

THIS, along with Towns traditional stats which are way ahead of Jokic, shows clearly that Towns had the better season.

Go ahead and poll any actual GMs, basketball historians or statisticians and see who had the better season.

Jokic is definitely an impactful player and fun to watch, but he did not have a better season than Towns.
The season is a collection of the whole, NOT what could've been done per/36 or per/48.

This is a good post. This is a lot better than just saying 25>16 end of debate. And my return to this would be Id take WS/48 over OWS, DWS and WS. Because a better WS/48 means they played the same amount of minutes Jokic would have a better WS and be better in at least one of OWS or DWS if not both. USG% doesnt really reflect a good or bad thing, you can be a great player with a low USG and you can be a horrible player with a high USG. 3PAr only shows how much the 3pt shot is involved in someones game, you can be a great player without taking a bunch of 3s. FTr is a good one, getting to the line is a big time skill especially when you can hit them at the rate KAT can. The DRB% is almost identical and so is the TRB% so I basically consider them equal when it comes to rebounding. Similar to the BLK% as well, both arent good shot blockers.

The thing i'm saying is there is no IF in the 2016/2017 season when comparing. What they both produced is what you gotta account for. I could make a case that Towns' higher 3PAr along with his higher 3pt% has more value, or how Jokic's turnover rate was higher in less minutes, and we could nitpick each advanced stat and go back and forth but my point is that Jokic does not blow out Towns in most advanced stats. This, along with Towns' tremendous traditional stats show that he had the better season.

[Nuggets_Talk]

Don't need it for this particular matter. I don't need to explain to you why James Harden is better than DeRozan n Klay Thompson, thats just waste of time.

yeah because harden is better than derozen, therefore ppg is sufficient for all debates.

makes sense. logic and reasoning 101.

yea Denver fans usually make alot of sense, just like when they were arguing that Peyton in his last year, where he ranked like 20 something QB in the league, was better than Aaron Rodgers.

Even though I'm not a broncos fan at all, your ability to not use valid reasoning in these discussions is astounding. Can't wait to hear your next point.

[Rashoismydad]

Weeeeeee, advanced stats!

Lets compare individual players with statistics which are heavily dependent on team and talk down to people who dont fall in line, WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Go look at the playstyles of Denver and MN in the context of "modern NBA offense".

Denver was 11th in 3pt FG%, MN was 20th
Denver was 8th in 3pt FGA, MN was dead last

But I suppose that is all due to the greatness of Advanced Stats (artist formerly known as Nikola Jokic) and due to how sh*tty Towns is in comparison...right?

I bet it was because Towns drug down MNs shooting! Well...wait...he was a center shooting 37% on 3.4 attempts a game.
I bet the rest of the team was drug down by him drawing so much attention! Couldnt have anything to do with having guys like Rubio laying bricks, or Wiggins desire to take long 2's.

But hey, keep praying to flawed metrics and trying to evaluate individual players off heavily team reliant stats! It will make it that much more enjoyable in a year after the wolves add 20 wins, Teague is there to knock down open shots instead of Rubio, Gibson and Butler improve the team defense, and Wiggins negative offensive impact is mitigated by sliding to the third option. Watching all Towns advanced stats increase with the performance of the team around him and knocking the chair out from all the Advanced Stats cultists.

The fact is these guys are who they are regardless of role/team/situation, but the numbers reflect different images based heavily on those factors. Put Towns on the nuggets and Jokic on the wolves and Towns advanced stats increase and Jokics decrease. Put them in a vacuum and see who they are without that (how I look at them) and its laughable to suggest they are on the same level. But dont take my word for it, you will be able to check BBRef in a year and all the arguments for Advanced Stats over Towns will be washed away.

[Nuggets_Talk]

Wait a second... a year ago Minnesota had the better team. Now there are excuses?

I wonder how much of that was jokic making his teammates better. He is good at that, ya know?

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Most minnesota stans tell me wiggins is a deserving max player...now i'm to believe he's a chump.

[Rashoismydad]

Wait a second... a year ago Minnesota had the better team. Now there are excuses?

I wonder how much of that was Jokic making his teammates better. He is good at that, ya know?

Denver won 9 more games, so theres 9 more games to split into your advanced metrics. They also played a more modern style of offense, with far more 3's and far fewer long 2's than the wolves, which also is heavily favored in advanced statistics. You cultists cant look beyond your advanced stats to see the difference in situations between the players. How about this, watch this video and count how many times Advanced Stats is double teamed compared to Towns. Watch this video and look at how Advanced Stats gets his points vs how Towns has to get his. One is taking on the burden of a star, the other gets to play between the cracks like a role player.

Watch on YouTube

You will see Towns drive and dunk on Advanced Stats skull, get tip ins on him, score on post moves, score on turnarounds, score on face up jumpers, knock down 3's, drive and score...the full arsenal of an elite offensive talent that he brings *every* night. You will see Advanced Stats with a couple chip shot 5 footers from somebody elses creation, one post score, and one elbow drive.

Looking at how the opposing team plays them is all you have to see to know who the better offensive player is. Sorry but getting Zach Lavine on a couple back door passes doesnt impress me, in fact it highlights some of the defensive stupidity Towns has been saddled with so far. I didnt bother to count the number of times Denver had to double Towns but it was basically every post possession yet he still either beat the double or made the right pass. Theres no reason to double Advanced Stats because hes nowhere near the offensive threat. If you people cant acknowledge the vastly different circumstances and level of defensive attention they encounter nightly then you are lost. Towns puts up his ridiculous numbers on high usage and fantastic efficiency against waves of defenders.

[Rashoismydad]

Most minnesota stans tell me wiggins is a deserving max player...now i'm to believe he's a chump.

Advanced stats hate long 2's and Wiggins loves them, does your fabricated argument deny this? Did I somewhere preach the greatness of Wiggins or are you simply pulling sh*t out of your a$$ to try to ignore reality? Am I somehow responsible for the opinion of others and reiterating what somebody else says holds some validity?

That was easy af, come back if you want to keep being the Apollo Creed to my Drago.

[Infinite Llamas]

Wait a second... a year ago Minnesota had the better team. Now there are excuses?

I wonder how much of that was Jokic making his teammates better. He is good at that, ya know?

Denver won 9 more games, so theres 9 more games to split into your advanced metrics. They also played a more modern style of offense, with far more 3's and far fewer long 2's than the wolves, which also is heavily favored in advanced statistics. You cultists cant look beyond your advanced stats to see the difference in situations between the players. How about this, watch this video and count how many times Advanced Stats is double teamed compared to Towns. Watch this video and look at how Advanced Stats gets his points vs how Towns has to get his. One is taking on the burden of a star, the other gets to play between the cracks like a role player.

Watch on YouTube

You will see Towns drive and dunk on Advanced Stats skull, get tip ins on him, score on post moves, score on turnarounds, score on face up jumpers, knock down 3's, drive and score...the full arsenal of an elite offensive talent that he brings *every* night. You will see Advanced Stats with a couple chip shot 5 footers from somebody elses creation, one post score, and one elbow drive.

Looking at how the opposing team plays them is all you have to see to know who the better offensive player is. Sorry but getting Zach Lavine on a couple back door passes doesnt impress me, in fact it highlights some of the defensive stupidity Towns has been saddled with so far. I didnt bother to count the number of times Denver had to double Towns but it was basically every post possession yet he still either beat the double or made the right pass. Theres no reason to double Advanced Stats because hes nowhere near the offensive threat. If you people cant acknowledge the vastly different circumstances and level of defensive attention they encounter nightly then you are lost. Towns puts up his ridiculous numbers on high usage and fantastic efficiency against waves of defenders.

Your points could potentially have more substance if you didn't constantly discount advanced stats, come up with a stupid little nickname for Jokic (that isn't clever or humourous) and refer to people who support Jokic as "cultists". At the end of the day, they are both rising star players and it's too early in their careers to definitively say who will have the better career, but the speculation is paramount. Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a debate that exists between these centers and while one is based more on extrapolation, it does precious little to discourage the debate.

[Nuggets_Talk]

Kat is a good player but your homeristic whining isn't going to change any opinions.

[Rashoismydad]

Your points could potentially have more substance if you didn't constantly discount advanced stats, come up with a stupid little nickname for Jokic (that isn't clever or humourous) and refer to people who support Jokic as "cultists". At the end of the day, they are both rising star players and it's too early in their careers to definitively say who will have the better career, but the speculation is paramount. Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a debate that exists between these centers and while one is based more on extrapolation, it does precious little to discourage the debate.

I have explained why I discount *some* advanced stats, because of their reliance on team related outcomes to judge an individual. Its like if you had a job and when you had your review they allowed the other people in the company to negatively reflect on your contributions, its illogical and flies in the face of what "advanced stats" are supposed to accomplish.

The nickname is awesome, dont hate.

I dont refer to Advanced Stats fans as cultists, but anybody who blindly bows to numbers they clearly dont understand.

I personally dont feel its too early to definitively say who will be better. Towns has played 5657 minutes in 2 years, started 164/164 games, and put up numbers only matched by all time greats...literally top 10 ALL TIME type players. 21.7/11.4/2.3

Advanced Stats has played 3771 minutes, played 153 games (started 114) and has put up 13.2/8.4/3.6

Towns has done this as the #1 option, with waves of defenders thrown at him nightly. AS has done it as a supplementary player. Towns has no physical limitations and a versatility AS will never approach. This debate it laughable to me and the only leg the people arguing for AS have to stand on is team reliant stats. Like I said with Durant and his DBPM, HE IS WHO HE IS, putting him in a different situation and with different teammates doesnt change WHO HE IS, but it can drastically impact team reliant stats. So long as you can only base your argument on team reliant stats you HAVE NO argument. In a vacuum (which is the only context which matters when directly comparing two players) this is not any sort of competition.

Do you honestly think GSW wouldnt trade Green for Towns? Based on advanced metrics and the argument of the cultists they shouldnt. LAUGHABLE.

[Rashoismydad]

Kat is a good player but your homeristic whining isn't going to change any opinions.

It has nothing to do with being a homer, it has to do with reality. I dont need to make Towns better because hes on the wolves, but I have been an NBA fan for 25 years and HOF talents are easy to spot. This guy is on a trajectory to surpass Kevin Garnett, hes as special as they come, best player in the NBA potential type special. Im sorry but the same simply can not be said about AS.

I also dont care about changing opinions, you do you. If you want to blindly follow stats you clearly dont understand then be ignorant, it makes no difference to me.

[theGreatRC]

To answer the OP, I absolutely think Jokic can be a MVP type player. It's also really easy to build a team around him because he does so many things well.

I have a soft spot for passers because for some reason it's how I always played since I was young & the way Jokic can throw a crisp pass to a cutter from any angle on the court with such ease is fun to watch.

What I do hate is the fact that OF COURSE this turned into a KAT vs Jokic thread. They're both MVP potential big men, just let Denver fans enjoy Joker & Minny fans enjoy KAT. Our opinions aren't fact so saying one is better than the other doesn't change a damn thing.

[kinggnik87]

Here is my opinion based on eye test.

Jokic makes everyone around him better, makes all the tough shots looks effortless, and Jokic is crafty as fk. You put one big guy to guard him, he use a baby hook to score it, you put a fast guy to guard him, he uses his height to score, you double team him, he put a pinpoint pass to his teammate to have an open layup. You drag him out to the 3-pt line, he can pass like a point guard and do the perfect pass which lead to a point.

The consensus is that he is such a unique player that we don't have a clue on how he gonna end up as, but saying Jokic is incomparable to KAT is ridiculous. Time will tell, but I would rate Jokic higher than KAT that's for sure.
If we speculate the future base on now, I can see Jokic turned into a Magic-Dirk player, while KAT becomes the Shaq-Bosh type player.

[Johnny Firpo]

Rashoismydad you are like playing chess against a pigeon. You knock over the pieces, take a crap on the board, and claim victory. It is utterly hilarious, please, please, never stop.

[Rashoismydad]

Rashoismydad you are like playing chess against a pigeon. You knock over the pieces, take a crap on the board, and claim victory. It is utterly hilarious, please, please, never stop.

I have thoroughly explained my logical disagreement with using team based metrics in an evaluation of an individual player. Without those metrics there is literally no case to be made for Jokic being on KATs level, let alone superior.

You keep siding with people like the poster above who projects Jokic as some Dirk/Magic hybrid. Us Pigeons will continue to sh*t on you and laugh.

[Johnny Firpo]

I have thoroughly explained my logical disagreement with using team based metrics in an evaluation of an individual player. Without those metrics there is literally no case to be made for Jokic being on KATs level, let alone superior.

You keep siding with people like the poster above who projects Jokic as some Dirk/Magic hybrid. Us Pigeons will continue to sh*t on you and laugh.

Thank you, and again, please, never stop.

[maRioGrande]

Rashoismydad you are like playing chess against a pigeon. You knock over the pieces, take a crap on the board, and claim victory. It is utterly hilarious, please, please, never stop.

I have thoroughly explained my logical disagreement with using team based metrics in an evaluation of an individual player. Without those metrics there is literally no case to be made for Jokic being on KATs level, let alone superior.

You keep siding with people like the poster above who projects Jokic as some Dirk/Magic hybrid. Us Pigeons will continue to sh*t on you and laugh.

You seem to be a bit nervous.

[Knicksfan20]

Chris Webber is a guy who was very similar to Jokic. Not quite the passer Jokic is but certainly a very efficient big who could pass the ball. Webbert was a better athlete and defender than Jokic.

Um....what? How do you see Chris Webber in him at all? That comparison makes 0 sense.

[durden-tyler]

Chris Webber is a guy who was very similar to Jokic. Not quite the passer Jokic is but certainly a very efficient big who could pass the ball. Webbert was a better athlete and defender than Jokic.

Um....what? How do you see Chris Webber in him at all? That comparison makes 0 sense.

Not saying that they were the same but C-Webb passsing abilities were great...