How good is Jokic? [Poll added]

[Rashoismydad]

Im becoming more and more convinced that you just havent really seen Jokic play that much. Brad Miller was a pretty damn good player but skill wise its not even close between him and Jokic. Miller doesnt come close to the efficiency that Jokic plays with. And lets compare Miller's 15/8/5 (4.7) season. It took him 37 minutes to get those numbers and he shot 49% from the field and had a 57 TS%. Jokic last year put up 16/10/5 in 28 minutes a game and shot 57% from the field and had a 64 TS%. And if you dig deeper into the facilitating numbers Jokic had a 28.8% AST% last year, Miller's career high was 21.5%.

Jokic is an extremely rich version of Brad Miller where the gap is so wide that its pretty pointless to even make the comparison. Then you add in the fact we are comparing a 2nd year 21 year old to a guy that was in his lat 20s and in his prime. Brad Miller wasnt even in the NBA at 21 and he didnt average 4 assists a game till he was 27.

And Jokic was pretty transcendent last year. Denver was middle of the pack offensively, then Jokic gets put into the starting lineup and all of a sudden Denver has a better offense than GS with Curry/KD/Klay. And you saying Towns can be just as good of a passer is just showing how bias you are and not willing to actually look at this from all angles. Jokic is one of the best big man passers we have seen in a very long time and youre saying if you put Towns in the same system he would do the same. If Towns could do that, Minny would be running that system.

The ascension of Brad Millers passing had nothing to do with him becoming a different player, and everything to do with being put in Adelmans system to take advantage of it. He didnt grow into a good passer, he always was a good passer, it simply wasnt utilized until Adelmans high post offense took advantage.

Passing is what the cultists want to use to differentiate Jokic and label him "transcendent" and a mix of Dirk/Magic. Hes not that unique, and will never be half as good as Dirk or Magic let alone some hybrid of the two. A guy like Brad miller can be 80% of Jokic and nobody gives a f*ck about Miller or ever compared him to Magic FFS. Even as a starter he could barely stay on the floor 30 minutes, has anybody addressed why this Dirk/Magic hybrid cant seem to play full starter minutes? Would you feel comfortable comparing a guy who played 19 minutes a game to Jokic?

Anyway, we will all get to look back on this after this upcoming season. Should be fun for me, not so much for most of you.

[Duke4life831]

Im becoming more and more convinced that you just havent really seen Jokic play that much. Brad Miller was a pretty damn good player but skill wise its not even close between him and Jokic. Miller doesnt come close to the efficiency that Jokic plays with. And lets compare Miller's 15/8/5 (4.7) season. It took him 37 minutes to get those numbers and he shot 49% from the field and had a 57 TS%. Jokic last year put up 16/10/5 in 28 minutes a game and shot 57% from the field and had a 64 TS%. And if you dig deeper into the facilitating numbers Jokic had a 28.8% AST% last year, Miller's career high was 21.5%.

Jokic is an extremely rich version of Brad Miller where the gap is so wide that its pretty pointless to even make the comparison. Then you add in the fact we are comparing a 2nd year 21 year old to a guy that was in his lat 20s and in his prime. Brad Miller wasnt even in the NBA at 21 and he didnt average 4 assists a game till he was 27.

And Jokic was pretty transcendent last year. Denver was middle of the pack offensively, then Jokic gets put into the starting lineup and all of a sudden Denver has a better offense than GS with Curry/KD/Klay. And you saying Towns can be just as good of a passer is just showing how bias you are and not willing to actually look at this from all angles. Jokic is one of the best big man passers we have seen in a very long time and youre saying if you put Towns in the same system he would do the same. If Towns could do that, Minny would be running that system.

The ascension of Brad Millers passing had nothing to do with him becoming a different player, and everything to do with being put in Adelmans system to take advantage of it. He didnt grow into a good passer, he always was a good passer, it simply wasnt utilized until Adelmans high post offense took advantage.

Passing is what the cultists want to use to differentiate Jokic and label him "transcendent" and a mix of Dirk/Magic. Hes not that unique, and will never be half as good as Dirk or Magic let alone some hybrid of the two. A guy like Brad miller can be 80% of Jokic and nobody gives a f*ck about Miller or ever compared him to Magic FFS. Even as a starter he could barely stay on the floor 30 minutes, has anybody addressed why this Dirk/Magic hybrid cant seem to play full starter minutes? Would you feel comfortable comparing a guy who played 19 minutes a game to Jokic?

Anyway, we will all get to look back on this after this upcoming season. Should be fun for me, not so much for most of you.

Maybe people are saying Jokic has a chance to be a transcendent player because of the ridiculous numbers he put up as a 2nd year 21 year old. Or because of the fact that Denver went from the middle of the pack offense with Jokic coming off the bench to having the best offense in the NBA over super teams like GS and CLE once they put Jokic into the starting lineup.

[sixerswillrule]

Brad Miller posted seasons of 14/10/4.3, 15/8/5, 16/9/4

Theres your real comp, rich mans Brad Miller. Your illusions of some Dirk/Magic hybrid are embarrassing. Jokic is being so heavily overrated because he can throw a nice pass here and there and is in an offense to take advantage of it, its sad. Transcendant?!?! Go see a doctor, you arent well. Stick towns in the high post and tell him to deal and thats just what he would do. As I said, he averaged over 5 APG vs the nuggets, the most against any other team...you think thats coincidence? Thats Towns showing he can do it to if called to do so, its simply not his role.

Jokic will have to show that he can play more minutes at that level, but yes, per minute, 21 year old Jokic last season was a rich man's prime 26-28 year old Brad Miller. Very impressive.

Not even close per minutes. It was taking Miller 9 more minutes a game to accomplish that statline and no mention of the significantly better .640% true shooting Jokic had....

I'm in agreement with you.

[Alatan]

Im becoming more and more convinced that you just havent really seen Jokic play that much. Brad Miller was a pretty damn good player but skill wise its not even close between him and Jokic. Miller doesnt come close to the efficiency that Jokic plays with. And lets compare Miller's 15/8/5 (4.7) season. It took him 37 minutes to get those numbers and he shot 49% from the field and had a 57 TS%. Jokic last year put up 16/10/5 in 28 minutes a game and shot 57% from the field and had a 64 TS%. And if you dig deeper into the facilitating numbers Jokic had a 28.8% AST% last year, Miller's career high was 21.5%.

Jokic is an extremely rich version of Brad Miller where the gap is so wide that its pretty pointless to even make the comparison. Then you add in the fact we are comparing a 2nd year 21 year old to a guy that was in his lat 20s and in his prime. Brad Miller wasnt even in the NBA at 21 and he didnt average 4 assists a game till he was 27.

And Jokic was pretty transcendent last year. Denver was middle of the pack offensively, then Jokic gets put into the starting lineup and all of a sudden Denver has a better offense than GS with Curry/KD/Klay. And you saying Towns can be just as good of a passer is just showing how bias you are and not willing to actually look at this from all angles. Jokic is one of the best big man passers we have seen in a very long time and youre saying if you put Towns in the same system he would do the same. If Towns could do that, Minny would be running that system.

The ascension of Brad Millers passing had nothing to do with him becoming a different player, and everything to do with being put in Adelmans system to take advantage of it. He didnt grow into a good passer, he always was a good passer, it simply wasnt utilized until Adelmans high post offense took advantage.

Passing is what the cultists want to use to differentiate Jokic and label him "transcendent" and a mix of Dirk/Magic. Hes not that unique, and will never be half as good as Dirk or Magic let alone some hybrid of the two. A guy like Brad miller can be 80% of Jokic and nobody gives a f*ck about Miller or ever compared him to Magic FFS. Even as a starter he could barely stay on the floor 30 minutes, has anybody addressed why this Dirk/Magic hybrid cant seem to play full starter minutes? Would you feel comfortable comparing a guy who played 19 minutes a game to Jokic?

Anyway, we will all get to look back on this after this upcoming season. Should be fun for me, not so much for most of you.

You asked why he could not play more minutes. There are several reasons. One is that he had/has issues with stamina. His talents were not recognized/ put to use until mid December because he was playing in a team with another good big in Nurkic. He is a young player and coaches typically dont give them much playing time. He had a habit of commiting euroleague fouls to stop fast breaks and easy points witch would get him benched by Malone.
We have all stated our reasons why we think Jokic can be a Combination of Dirk/Magic. Quick reminder, its his court vision, Bball IQ, passing ability, decision making, shooting, size, post moves, rebounding etc. Some believe, myself included, that he can improve significantly considering he doesn't have an NBA body, is only 22 and started playing Basketball at 16.
I would ask you this. Why do you think he can't be as good as Dirk, Magic etc. ?

[Rashoismydad]

Maybe people are saying Jokic has a chance to be a transcendent player because of the ridiculous numbers he put up as a 2nd year 21 year old. Or because of the fact that Denver went from the middle of the pack offense with Jokic coming off the bench to having the best offense in the NBA over super teams like GS and CLE once they put Jokic into the starting lineup.

I guess I completely disagree with 16.7/9.8/4.9 being "ridiculous numbers" while Towns puts up 25.1/12.3/2.7 with the same age and experience criteria.

Its fun to completely attribute every positive improvement the nuggets made solely to Jokic to pump your fantasy I bet.

[Rashoismydad]

You asked why he could not play more minutes. There are several reasons. One is that he had/has issues with stamina. His talents were not recognized/ put to use until mid December because he was playing in a team with another good big in Nurkic. He is a young player and coaches typically dont give them much playing time. He had a habit of commiting euroleague fouls to stop fast breaks and easy points witch would get him benched by Malone.
We have all stated our reasons why we think Jokic can be a Combination of Dirk/Magic. Quick reminder, its his court vision, Bball IQ, passing ability, decision making, shooting, size, post moves, rebounding etc. Some believe, myself included, that he can improve significantly considering he doesn't have an NBA body, is only 22 and started playing Basketball at 16.
I would ask you this. Why do you think he can't be as good as Dirk, Magic etc. ?

If he has stamina issues then how can you possibly feel comfortable extrapolating his numbers out over extended minutes? You think Towns never got tired? You think it would have no impact on his efficiency if he got more rest?

Even after he was a starter he didnt play full starter minutes (post December) so I dont buy the excuses of his talent not being recognized.

Why dont I think he can be as good as Dirk or Magic? What a ridiculous question. Why dont I think Zach Lavine can be as good as Jordan? Because I live in the real world.

[Duke4life831]

Maybe people are saying Jokic has a chance to be a transcendent player because of the ridiculous numbers he put up as a 2nd year 21 year old. Or because of the fact that Denver went from the middle of the pack offense with Jokic coming off the bench to having the best offense in the NBA over super teams like GS and CLE once they put Jokic into the starting lineup.

I guess I completely disagree with 16.7/9.8/4.9 being "ridiculous numbers" while Towns puts up 25.1/12.3/2.7 with the same age and experience criteria.

Its fun to completely attribute every positive improvement the nuggets made solely to Jokic to pump your fantasy I bet.

I actually lived in Denver and saw plenty of Nuggets games. Yes Jokic was the primary reason for the massive improvement. Please find me one Nugget fan on here that would disagree with that.

16/10/5 in just 28 minutes is pretty damn good. Then 6th in RPM (1st for Cs), 8th in PER (1st for Cs), 4th in TS%, 7th in ORtg, 9th in WS/48 (2nd for Cs), 5th in BPM (1st for Cs), 9th in VORP (2nd for Cs). And again the catalyst for the best offense in the NBA. Thats kind of where I got the "ridiculous numbers" statement.

[Alatan]

You asked why he could not play more minutes. There are several reasons. One is that he had/has issues with stamina. His talents were not recognized/ put to use until mid December because he was playing in a team with another good big in Nurkic. He is a young player and coaches typically dont give them much playing time. He had a habit of commiting euroleague fouls to stop fast breaks and easy points witch would get him benched by Malone.
We have all stated our reasons why we think Jokic can be a Combination of Dirk/Magic. Quick reminder, its his court vision, Bball IQ, passing ability, decision making, shooting, size, post moves, rebounding etc. Some believe, myself included, that he can improve significantly considering he doesn't have an NBA body, is only 22 and started playing Basketball at 16.
I would ask you this. Why do you think he can't be as good as Dirk, Magic etc. ?

If he has stamina issues then how can you possibly feel comfortable extrapolating his numbers out over extended minutes? You think Towns never got tired? You think it would have no impact on his efficiency if he got more rest?

Even after he was a starter he didnt play full starter minutes (post December) so I dont buy the excuses of his talent not being recognized.

Why dont I think he can be as good as Dirk or Magic? What a ridiculous question. Why dont I think Zach Lavine can be as good as Jordan? Because I live in the real world.

How can we extrapolate his number? Maybe because stamina is the easiest thing to improve, as show by Jokic playing 30 mpg post allstar break and progressively increasing his mpg over the season reaching 32 mpg in April without a drop in his production.

What are full starter minutes 35/36 ? 30 seems very close to it.

What a ridiculous question is your best answer ?

[Rashoismydad]

How can we extrapolate his number? Maybe because stamina is the easiest thing to improve, as show by Jokic playing 30 mpg post allstar break and progressively increasing his mpg over the season reaching 32 mpg in April without a drop in his production.

What are full starter minutes 35/36 ? 30 seems very close to it.

What a ridiculous question is your best answer ?

Shooting 54% compared to his season average of 58% isnt a drop in production? Throw another exhausted 5 minutes on top of that now, what if hes shooting 52%? What does that do to his efficiency numbers?

I dont need to respect ridiculous comparisons. I have no problem declaring with 100% certainty Jokic will *never* single handedly lead his team to a title like Dirk, be one of the leagues leading scorers, lead the league in assists, or be the best player on one of the greatest dynasties in NBA history. This comparison is so ridiculous and laughable I shouldnt have even wasted my time explaining it.

[HurricaneKid]

Have you thought about the idea that maybe Jokic is never double teamed is because his passing perfection would always find the open man. And that Towns has to struggle with double teams because teams know he does not have such vision and therefore can force him into togher shots? If Jokic went to a team of world beaters we could argue that he has great teammates and that that allows him to pass the ball, like the situation Rondo was. But here, we have a mediocre team that was plagued by injuries whole season, had problems in line up managment for more then a month, and still surpassed expectations. Jokic has not been doing backdoor passes only on LaVine, but on every single team in the league. But obviously you only watch Minnesota and your knowledge starts and ends there. And how much of an offensive threat someone is doesn't just rely on his ability to score, but to create the whole offense. And you can easily see that in points scored with him on floor vs with him out. That is not advanced stats, that is some basic ****. He has otherworldly passing, amazing midrange, great back to basket game and solid three point and face up game. He is a complete threat. You are the type of person that would pick Kobe before Duncan because he dunks on people and has more ppg. Towns is a good player, but he a classic offensive, my points first player. What we are seeing in Jokices game is something transcendant, that only a few greats had that does not show in statistics. That is why you will never understand.

Brad Miller posted seasons of 14/10/4.3, 15/8/5, 16/9/4

Theres your real comp, rich mans Brad Miller. Your illusions of some Dirk/Magic hybrid are embarrassing. Jokic is being so heavily overrated because he can throw a nice pass here and there and is in an offense to take advantage of it, its sad. Transcendant?!?! Go see a doctor, you arent well. Stick towns in the high post and tell him to deal and thats just what he would do. As I said, he averaged over 5 APG vs the nuggets, the most against any other team...you think thats coincidence? Thats Towns showing he can do it to if called to do so, its simply not his role.

Im becoming more and more convinced that you just havent really seen Jokic play that much. Brad Miller was a pretty damn good player but skill wise its not even close between him and Jokic. Miller doesnt come close to the efficiency that Jokic plays with. And lets compare Miller's 15/8/5 (4.7) season. It took him 37 minutes to get those numbers and he shot 49% from the field and had a 57 TS%. Jokic last year put up 16/10/5 in 28 minutes a game and shot 57% from the field and had a 64 TS%. And if you dig deeper into the facilitating numbers Jokic had a 28.8% AST% last year, Miller's career high was 21.5%.

Jokic is an extremely rich version of Brad Miller where the gap is so wide that its pretty pointless to even make the comparison. Then you add in the fact we are comparing a 2nd year 21 year old to a guy that was in his lat 20s and in his prime. Brad Miller wasnt even in the NBA at 21 and he didnt average 4 assists a game till he was 27.

And Jokic was pretty transcendent last year. Denver was middle of the pack offensively, then Jokic gets put into the starting lineup and all of a sudden Denver has a better offense than GS with Curry/KD/Klay. And you saying Towns can be just as good of a passer is just showing how bias you are and not willing to actually look at this from all angles. Jokic is one of the best big man passers we have seen in a very long time and youre saying if you put Towns in the same system he would do the same. If Towns could do that, Minny would be running that system.

People need to stop taking Brad Miller comps as terrible slights. Brad Miller was a great player for several years. Some of your stat lines are a little wonky. Miller had a 4 year period where his lowest TS% was .576 (yet you call it .57?) in a league that avg .519/.516/.529TS% while the league avg was .552 this year so much of the difference between their efficiency originates in the age they played in.

Also, much of the early season swoon can be traced to Gary Harris missing the first two months of the year (they actually both came back to the starting lineup in the same game). So it wasn't like Jokic's placement back in the starting lineup was the only variable in their notable offensive improvement.

Jokic obviously appears likely to improve substantially, but given some of the athletic limitations there is a reasonable question as to how much room for improvement is possible. The bigger issue is that the game has markedly gone away from playing through the post and its hard to draw modern comparisons to play that simply doesn't occur outside of Denver much in the modern game. I do think a younger Sabonis would be an optimal outcome, but even he might have had issues defending in this age.

[Alatan]

How can we extrapolate his number? Maybe because stamina is the easiest thing to improve, as show by Jokic playing 30 mpg post allstar break and progressively increasing his mpg over the season reaching 32 mpg in April without a drop in his production.

What are full starter minutes 35/36 ? 30 seems very close to it.

What a ridiculous question is your best answer ?

Shooting 54% compared to his season average of 58% isnt a drop in production? Throw another exhausted 5 minutes on top of that now, what if hes shooting 52%? What does that do to his efficiency numbers?

I dont need to respect ridiculous comparisons. I have no problem declaring with 100% certainty Jokic will *never* single handedly lead his team to a title like Dirk, be one of the leagues leading scorers, lead the league in assists, or be the best player on one of the greatest dynasties in NBA history. This comparison is so ridiculous and laughable I shouldnt have even wasted my time explaining it.

As i said stamina is the easiest thing to improve in the NBA and his "drop" in FG% is on a small sample size and mostly due to his drop in 3 point %. Considering Jokic projects to be a great 3 point shooter it doesn't worry me at all.

And again you fail to mention why or give any kind of hint of reason. You are disrespecting Jokic because he doesnt look like an athletic freak. It is as someone saying that Towns is the next Cousins putting 30 ppg yet never making the playoffs.

[sixerswillrule]

Maybe people are saying Jokic has a chance to be a transcendent player because of the ridiculous numbers he put up as a 2nd year 21 year old. Or because of the fact that Denver went from the middle of the pack offense with Jokic coming off the bench to having the best offense in the NBA over super teams like GS and CLE once they put Jokic into the starting lineup.

I guess I completely disagree with 16.7/9.8/4.9 being "ridiculous numbers" while Towns puts up 25.1/12.3/2.7 with the same age and experience criteria.

Its fun to completely attribute every positive improvement the nuggets made solely to Jokic to pump your fantasy I bet.

They both put up ridiculous numbers. Jokic had the highest TS% for any 15+ points per game 2nd year player in the last 20 years. Towns was #2 (if TS% is too advanced for you, Jokic is #1 in 2P% and FG% too). They tied for 5th in VORP (which is cumulative stat, not a per minute stat) for 2nd year players in the last 20 years, after LeBron, Steve Francis, Duncan, and Paul. Of course Jokic played 800-1200 less minutes than the other 5 players but we can ignore that.

And just looking at the raw numbers while still ignoring minutes, and cutting down the numbers even further to set criteria:

From 16.9 ppg to 15.0
From 9.8 rpg to 8.0
From 4.9 apg to 4.0
From 63% 2P% to 60%

Jokic is the only 2nd year player in the last 40 years to do that. Barkley is right there, though. Even if you ignore the assists (which is of course crazy because his passing is one of his best if not best attribute, and no, Towns is not doing that with a simple role change) and drop the % even lower, the list only includes Jokic, Shaq, Barkley, Cedric Maxwell, and Towns. In the last 40 years. Yes, Jokic put up ridiculous numbers for a 21 year old 2nd player.

[Duke4life831]

Brad Miller posted seasons of 14/10/4.3, 15/8/5, 16/9/4

Theres your real comp, rich mans Brad Miller. Your illusions of some Dirk/Magic hybrid are embarrassing. Jokic is being so heavily overrated because he can throw a nice pass here and there and is in an offense to take advantage of it, its sad. Transcendant?!?! Go see a doctor, you arent well. Stick towns in the high post and tell him to deal and thats just what he would do. As I said, he averaged over 5 APG vs the nuggets, the most against any other team...you think thats coincidence? Thats Towns showing he can do it to if called to do so, its simply not his role.

Im becoming more and more convinced that you just havent really seen Jokic play that much. Brad Miller was a pretty damn good player but skill wise its not even close between him and Jokic. Miller doesnt come close to the efficiency that Jokic plays with. And lets compare Miller's 15/8/5 (4.7) season. It took him 37 minutes to get those numbers and he shot 49% from the field and had a 57 TS%. Jokic last year put up 16/10/5 in 28 minutes a game and shot 57% from the field and had a 64 TS%. And if you dig deeper into the facilitating numbers Jokic had a 28.8% AST% last year, Miller's career high was 21.5%.

Jokic is an extremely rich version of Brad Miller where the gap is so wide that its pretty pointless to even make the comparison. Then you add in the fact we are comparing a 2nd year 21 year old to a guy that was in his lat 20s and in his prime. Brad Miller wasnt even in the NBA at 21 and he didnt average 4 assists a game till he was 27.

And Jokic was pretty transcendent last year. Denver was middle of the pack offensively, then Jokic gets put into the starting lineup and all of a sudden Denver has a better offense than GS with Curry/KD/Klay. And you saying Towns can be just as good of a passer is just showing how bias you are and not willing to actually look at this from all angles. Jokic is one of the best big man passers we have seen in a very long time and youre saying if you put Towns in the same system he would do the same. If Towns could do that, Minny would be running that system.

People need to stop taking Brad Miller comps as terrible slights. Brad Miller was a great player for several years. Some of your stat lines are a little wonky. Miller had a 4 year period where his lowest TS% was .576 (yet you call it .57?) in a league that avg .519/.516/.529TS% while the league avg was .552 this year so much of the difference between their efficiency originates in the age they played in.

Also, much of the early season swoon can be traced to Gary Harris missing the first two months of the year (they actually both came back to the starting lineup in the same game). So it wasn't like Jokic's placement back in the starting lineup was the only variable in their notable offensive improvement.

Jokic obviously appears likely to improve substantially, but given some of the athletic limitations there is a reasonable question as to how much room for improvement is possible. The bigger issue is that the game has markedly gone away from playing through the post and its hard to draw modern comparisons to play that simply doesn't occur outside of Denver much in the modern game. I do think a younger Sabonis would be an optimal outcome, but even he might have had issues defending in this age.

Im not taking it as a slight, like I said Miller was a damn good player. Im just saying its a bad comparison. Jokic is a more efficient player and a better facilitator. I also dont get whats wrong with me calling it a 57 TS% when he had a 57 TS% for the year I was talking about and I was talking about that year because that was his best passing year. Jokic almost plays like a Point Center, when was the last time we had a center have an AST% of 28%? Then add in the fact that he is one of the most efficient scorers in the game as well.

Ya Gary Harris did come back and he is a solid player, but hes not moving the needle like Jokic is. He just doesnt make the same impact that Jokic makes. I didnt say Jokic was the only reason, I said he was the primary reason.

[maRioGrande]

Jokic is unicorn. If you don't like him, you don't like basketball.

[madskillz8]

I understand why some people compare Jokic with Brad Miller since both of them are good passers, skilled offensive players with poor athleticism. Brad Miller had his best years under Kings' princeton offense with his excellent mid-range game and passing skills. I can say that his skills are perfect fit for Princeton offense and both Miller and Kings benefited from that: Miller selected all-star while Kings maintain winning percentages after Divac & Webber era. On the other hand, he was non-existent on defense with his very limited athletic abilities. I don't really remember he's dunking the ball even though he's 7 feet tall because of his two inch (!) vertical. His defense regressed even more after his 30. He was the only reason Jerome James had this ridiculous contract that places him on top 10 most overpaid players of all time on many people's list.

On the other hand Jokic is very polished and multi-dimensional offensive player independent of the offensive scheme of his team. He can push the ball to lead a fast break after grabbing the rebound like Jason Kidd. He can distribute the ball from high post to cutters like Divac and Miller. He's very crafty on offensive glass and can grab offensive boards and easily finish around the rim with his length and footwork. He can shoot from mid-range and 3 effectively. He's not forcing anything. You might ask that, why he's only score 15-16 if he has such a great offensive skill-set. The answer is his basketball IQ, understanding the game. He led his team to one of the best offenses in NBA (I'm not sure if they had passed Warriors post All-star) while operating the offense since he always makes the correct plays. He's neither a pass first player, nor a black hole. He's always looking for correct plays which translated into wins for his team.

On the defensive side, he's not a reliability at least. He's not going to be a elite rim protector with his limited athletic abilities. He needs time and training to adjust to pick-and-roll defense with quick NBA guards.

I'm really excited to see his performance next year while playing 30+ minutes as well as sharing the front court with Millsap who's versatile and unselfish.

[HurricaneKid]

Im becoming more and more convinced that you just havent really seen Jokic play that much. Brad Miller was a pretty damn good player but skill wise its not even close between him and Jokic. Miller doesnt come close to the efficiency that Jokic plays with. And lets compare Miller's 15/8/5 (4.7) season. It took him 37 minutes to get those numbers and he shot 49% from the field and had a 57 TS%. Jokic last year put up 16/10/5 in 28 minutes a game and shot 57% from the field and had a 64 TS%. And if you dig deeper into the facilitating numbers Jokic had a 28.8% AST% last year, Miller's career high was 21.5%.

Jokic is an extremely rich version of Brad Miller where the gap is so wide that its pretty pointless to even make the comparison. Then you add in the fact we are comparing a 2nd year 21 year old to a guy that was in his lat 20s and in his prime. Brad Miller wasnt even in the NBA at 21 and he didnt average 4 assists a game till he was 27.

And Jokic was pretty transcendent last year. Denver was middle of the pack offensively, then Jokic gets put into the starting lineup and all of a sudden Denver has a better offense than GS with Curry/KD/Klay. And you saying Towns can be just as good of a passer is just showing how bias you are and not willing to actually look at this from all angles. Jokic is one of the best big man passers we have seen in a very long time and youre saying if you put Towns in the same system he would do the same. If Towns could do that, Minny would be running that system.

People need to stop taking Brad Miller comps as terrible slights. Brad Miller was a great player for several years. Some of your stat lines are a little wonky. Miller had a 4 year period where his lowest TS% was .576 (yet you call it .57?) in a league that avg .519/.516/.529TS% while the league avg was .552 this year so much of the difference between their efficiency originates in the age they played in.

Also, much of the early season swoon can be traced to Gary Harris missing the first two months of the year (they actually both came back to the starting lineup in the same game). So it wasn't like Jokic's placement back in the starting lineup was the only variable in their notable offensive improvement.

Jokic obviously appears likely to improve substantially, but given some of the athletic limitations there is a reasonable question as to how much room for improvement is possible. The bigger issue is that the game has markedly gone away from playing through the post and its hard to draw modern comparisons to play that simply doesn't occur outside of Denver much in the modern game. I do think a younger Sabonis would be an optimal outcome, but even he might have had issues defending in this age.

Im not taking it as a slight, like I said Miller was a damn good player. Im just saying its a bad comparison. Jokic is a more efficient player and a better facilitator. I also dont get whats wrong with me calling it a 57 TS% when he had a 57 TS% for the year I was talking about and I was talking about that year because that was his best passing year. Jokic almost plays like a Point Center, when was the last time we had a center have an AST% of 28%? Then add in the fact that he is one of the most efficient scorers in the game as well.

Ya Gary Harris did come back and he is a solid player, but hes not moving the needle like Jokic is. He just doesnt make the same impact that Jokic makes. I didnt say Jokic was the only reason, I said he was the primary reason.

I'm a stickler for math. .576 is either .576 or .58. And his best years were the first two years he had with Sac. He shot .576 and .596 which was .057 and .080 better than the league avg. Jokic shot .640 (wow!) in a league that shot .552 or .088 better than the league avg. Still, that's only .008 better than Miller's most efficient season or less than 1/10th of one percentage point.

Ast% is more a usage stat than anything. Yes, Denver plays through Jokic when he is in. But Westbrook had a Ast% of 57.3% and he is a subpar distributor if anything. I'm NOT attempting to denigrate his interior passing, its fantastic, just the way you are attempting to quantify it. Webber is probably the only comparable of the last 15 years if he continues to improve.

The Nuggets were FAR better with Jokic AND Harris than just Jokic. In fact, they were 6.0 pts/100 poss better:
http://nbawowy.com/#/oq91v89zz44j
http://nbawowy.com/#/1y7d2j2zg4v6

So they were 8.2 pts/100 better WITH Harris than without him and with Jokic IN they were 6.0 pts better with him in than without. In fact, they were better with Harris in than they were with Jokic in and Harris out. That my friend is called moving the needle. And a big reason why most expect him to get a 20M/ offer after this season.

[Wolfgang630]

I really hope we see a lot of Denver vs Minnesota in the playoffs.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Brad Miller posted seasons of 14/10/4.3, 15/8/5, 16/9/4

Theres your real comp, rich mans Brad Miller. Your illusions of some Dirk/Magic hybrid are embarrassing. Jokic is being so heavily overrated because he can throw a nice pass here and there and is in an offense to take advantage of it, its sad. Transcendant?!?! Go see a doctor, you arent well. Stick towns in the high post and tell him to deal and thats just what he would do. As I said, he averaged over 5 APG vs the nuggets, the most against any other team...you think thats coincidence? Thats Towns showing he can do it to if called to do so, its simply not his role.

I love how people that are against advanced stats end up bringing up the most basic ones as if they meant anything.
There's a reason they are called "advanced"...



Sent from my Nokia 3210 using Tapatalk

[Alatan]

People need to stop taking Brad Miller comps as terrible slights. Brad Miller was a great player for several years. Some of your stat lines are a little wonky. Miller had a 4 year period where his lowest TS% was .576 (yet you call it .57?) in a league that avg .519/.516/.529TS% while the league avg was .552 this year so much of the difference between their efficiency originates in the age they played in.

Also, much of the early season swoon can be traced to Gary Harris missing the first two months of the year (they actually both came back to the starting lineup in the same game). So it wasn't like Jokic's placement back in the starting lineup was the only variable in their notable offensive improvement.

Jokic obviously appears likely to improve substantially, but given some of the athletic limitations there is a reasonable question as to how much room for improvement is possible. The bigger issue is that the game has markedly gone away from playing through the post and its hard to draw modern comparisons to play that simply doesn't occur outside of Denver much in the modern game. I do think a younger Sabonis would be an optimal outcome, but even he might have had issues defending in this age.

Im not taking it as a slight, like I said Miller was a damn good player. Im just saying its a bad comparison. Jokic is a more efficient player and a better facilitator. I also dont get whats wrong with me calling it a 57 TS% when he had a 57 TS% for the year I was talking about and I was talking about that year because that was his best passing year. Jokic almost plays like a Point Center, when was the last time we had a center have an AST% of 28%? Then add in the fact that he is one of the most efficient scorers in the game as well.

Ya Gary Harris did come back and he is a solid player, but hes not moving the needle like Jokic is. He just doesnt make the same impact that Jokic makes. I didnt say Jokic was the only reason, I said he was the primary reason.

I'm a stickler for math. .576 is either .576 or .58. And his best years were the first two years he had with Sac. He shot .576 and .596 which was .057 and .080 better than the league avg. Jokic shot .640 (wow!) in a league that shot .552 or .088 better than the league avg. Still, that's only .008 better than Miller's most efficient season or less than 1/10th of one percentage point.

Ast% is more a usage stat than anything. Yes, Denver plays through Jokic when he is in. But Westbrook had a Ast% of 57.3% and he is a subpar distributor if anything. I'm NOT attempting to denigrate his interior passing, its fantastic, just the way you are attempting to quantify it. Webber is probably the only comparable of the last 15 years if he continues to improve.

The Nuggets were FAR better with Jokic AND Harris than just Jokic. In fact, they were 6.0 pts/100 poss better:
http://nbawowy.com/#/oq91v89zz44j
http://nbawowy.com/#/1y7d2j2zg4v6

So they were 8.2 pts/100 better WITH Harris than without him and with Jokic IN they were 6.0 pts better with him in than without. In fact, they were better with Harris in than they were with Jokic in and Harris out. That my friend is called moving the needle. And a big reason why most expect him to get a 20M/ offer after this season.

I checked the links you provided and i cant find what you claim. With Jokic/without Harris Denver has 1.156 ppp scored and 1.074 allowed and with Harris on and Jokic off it is 1.077 and 1.142. Other sites say Harris has a Box plus/minus of 1.5. Real plus minus (if it can be trusted) 0.5. I'm no expert at this so maybe i'm missing something.

Harris is a good young player that will only get better and certainly has a large part in Denver's improvement but I doubt he impacted it more than Jokic.

[12footrim]

I'm in agreement with you.

I know man, I just wanted to riff off your post knowing the other guy would see it.