How good is Jokic? [Poll added]

[Rashoismydad]

They both put up ridiculous numbers. Jokic had the highest TS% for any 15+ points per game 2nd year player in the last 20 years. Towns was #2 (if TS% is too advanced for you, Jokic is #1 in 2P% and FG% too). They tied for 5th in VORP (which is cumulative stat, not a per minute stat) for 2nd year players in the last 20 years, after LeBron, Steve Francis, Duncan, and Paul. Of course Jokic played 800-1200 less minutes than the other 5 players but we can ignore that.

And just looking at the raw numbers while still ignoring minutes, and cutting down the numbers even further to set criteria:

From 16.9 ppg to 15.0
From 9.8 rpg to 8.0
From 4.9 apg to 4.0
From 63% 2P% to 60%

Jokic is the only 2nd year player in the last 40 years to do that. Barkley is right there, though. Even if you ignore the assists (which is of course crazy because his passing is one of his best if not best attribute, and no, Towns is not doing that with a simple role change) and drop the % even lower, the list only includes Jokic, Shaq, Barkley, Cedric Maxwell, and Towns. In the last 40 years. Yes, Jokic put up ridiculous numbers for a 21 year old 2nd player.

Why limit it to 15+ ppg players? The Jokic fans have already established playing time and quantity of shots dont matter, so why not compare him against guys who played 9 minutes less and only scored 12 points? Why not against guys who played 15 minutes less and 10 points? Lets get really arbitrary with it!

VORP = based off BPM = team reliant metric. You kids just dont learn, do you? Keep praying to things you dont understand and shunning those who do, cultist.

[Rashoismydad]

I'm a stickler for math. .576 is either .576 or .58. And his best years were the first two years he had with Sac. He shot .576 and .596 which was .057 and .080 better than the league avg. Jokic shot .640 (wow!) in a league that shot .552 or .088 better than the league avg. Still, that's only .008 better than Miller's most efficient season or less than 1/10th of one percentage point.

Ast% is more a usage stat than anything. Yes, Denver plays through Jokic when he is in. But Westbrook had a Ast% of 57.3% and he is a subpar distributor if anything. I'm NOT attempting to denigrate his interior passing, its fantastic, just the way you are attempting to quantify it. Webber is probably the only comparable of the last 15 years if he continues to improve.

The Nuggets were FAR better with Jokic AND Harris than just Jokic. In fact, they were 6.0 pts/100 poss better:
http://nbawowy.com/#/oq91v89zz44j
http://nbawowy.com/#/1y7d2j2zg4v6

So they were 8.2 pts/100 better WITH Harris than without him and with Jokic IN they were 6.0 pts better with him in than without. In fact, they were better with Harris in than they were with Jokic in and Harris out. That my friend is called moving the needle. And a big reason why most expect him to get a 20M/ offer after this season.

Hit the nail on the head.

Look at the advanced stats and they tell you Westbrook is some amazing passer...he is not, he simply has the ball a ton. Meanwhile Ricky Rubio, the most naturally gifted passer in the league, has a career assist rate of 39.2 while its literally all he tries to do offensively.

But...advanced stats!

I didnt dog Jokic, I called him a RICH MANS Miller and acknowledged hes better than him. Sorry if it falls short of the Magic effin Johnson mixed with Dirk insanity being tossed around in this thread.

But again, none of this matters, we will look back in 15 years and laugh at there once being a debate between KAT and Jokic just like I do about debates between KG and Mcdyess, Rasheed Wallace, and Shareef Abdur Rahim.

[HurricaneKid]

Im not taking it as a slight, like I said Miller was a damn good player. Im just saying its a bad comparison. Jokic is a more efficient player and a better facilitator. I also dont get whats wrong with me calling it a 57 TS% when he had a 57 TS% for the year I was talking about and I was talking about that year because that was his best passing year. Jokic almost plays like a Point Center, when was the last time we had a center have an AST% of 28%? Then add in the fact that he is one of the most efficient scorers in the game as well.

Ya Gary Harris did come back and he is a solid player, but hes not moving the needle like Jokic is. He just doesnt make the same impact that Jokic makes. I didnt say Jokic was the only reason, I said he was the primary reason.

I'm a stickler for math. .576 is either .576 or .58. And his best years were the first two years he had with Sac. He shot .576 and .596 which was .057 and .080 better than the league avg. Jokic shot .640 (wow!) in a league that shot .552 or .088 better than the league avg. Still, that's only .008 better than Miller's most efficient season or less than 1/10th of one percentage point.

Ast% is more a usage stat than anything. Yes, Denver plays through Jokic when he is in. But Westbrook had a Ast% of 57.3% and he is a subpar distributor if anything. I'm NOT attempting to denigrate his interior passing, its fantastic, just the way you are attempting to quantify it. Webber is probably the only comparable of the last 15 years if he continues to improve.

The Nuggets were FAR better with Jokic AND Harris than just Jokic. In fact, they were 6.0 pts/100 poss better:

http://nbawowy.com/#/1y7d2j2zg4v6

So they were 8.2 pts/100 better WITH Harris than without him and with Jokic IN they were 6.0 pts better with him in than without. In fact, they were better with Harris in than they were with Jokic in and Harris out. That my friend is called moving the needle. And a big reason why most expect him to get a 20M/ offer after this season.

I checked the links you provided and i cant find what you claim. With Jokic/without Harris Denver has 1.156 ppp scored and 1.074 allowed and with Harris on and Jokic off it is 1.077 and 1.142. Other sites say Harris has a Box plus/minus of 1.5. Real plus minus (if it can be trusted) 0.5. I'm no expert at this so maybe i'm missing something.

Harris is a good young player that will only get better and certainly has a large part in Denver's improvement but I doubt he impacted it more than Jokic.

CLICK ON -TEAM then look for PPP (points per possession; BBRef uses Pts/100 poss but it is essentially ORTG/100)

The two links I posted above were Jokic on Harris off (1.156) and Jokic on Harris on (1.216)

BBRef has Harris with a 117.1 ORTG (on) and 109.5 (off) or +7.6.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/harriga01/on-off/2017


Wowy has him at +8.2. Their site is acting up right now so I would bet that is all it is.
EDIT:
Harris Off: http://nbawowy.com/#/3qfxzp17kcqt - 1.099
Harris on: http://nbawowy.com/#/gsehq7udg456 - 1.181

Not saying he has more impact than Jokic, just that he has significant impact.

[Statlanta]

Mario Hezonja is better than all these Jokers

[Alatan]

I'm a stickler for math. .576 is either .576 or .58. And his best years were the first two years he had with Sac. He shot .576 and .596 which was .057 and .080 better than the league avg. Jokic shot .640 (wow!) in a league that shot .552 or .088 better than the league avg. Still, that's only .008 better than Miller's most efficient season or less than 1/10th of one percentage point.

Ast% is more a usage stat than anything. Yes, Denver plays through Jokic when he is in. But Westbrook had a Ast% of 57.3% and he is a subpar distributor if anything. I'm NOT attempting to denigrate his interior passing, its fantastic, just the way you are attempting to quantify it. Webber is probably the only comparable of the last 15 years if he continues to improve.

The Nuggets were FAR better with Jokic AND Harris than just Jokic. In fact, they were 6.0 pts/100 poss better:
http://nbawowy.com/#/oq91v89zz44j
http://nbawowy.com/#/1y7d2j2zg4v6

So they were 8.2 pts/100 better WITH Harris than without him and with Jokic IN they were 6.0 pts better with him in than without. In fact, they were better with Harris in than they were with Jokic in and Harris out. That my friend is called moving the needle. And a big reason why most expect him to get a 20M/ offer after this season.

Hit the nail on the head.

Look at the advanced stats and they tell you Westbrook is some amazing passer...he is not, he simply has the ball a ton. Meanwhile Ricky Rubio, the most naturally gifted passer in the league, has a career assist rate of 39.2 while its literally all he tries to do offensively.

But...advanced stats!

I didnt dog Jokic, I called him a RICH MANS Miller and acknowledged hes better than him. Sorry if it falls short of the Magic effin Johnson mixed with Dirk insanity being tossed around in this thread.

But again, none of this matters, we will look back in 15 years and laugh at there once being a debate between KAT and Jokic just like I do about debates between KG and Mcdyess, Rasheed Wallace, and Shareef Abdur Rahim.

I dont know why is Dirk on a such unreachable level. His second year stats were 17.5 ppg 6.5 rpg 2.5 ast 0.8 stp 0.8 bpg on 46 38 83 shooting.

Comparing Jokic to Miller is like comparing Dirk to Anderson who had 16/6.4/1.2/0.5/0.4 on 42 38 84 shooting and Calling young Dirk a rich mans Ryan Anderson.

[Alatan]

Mario Hezonja is better than all these Jokers

But does he do horse things?

[Screwston]

C with no D is a fools gold unless he's putting up ridiculous numbers offensively (even then I'm skeptical) not freaking 16 ppg. Would rather have Ben Wallace than Brook Lopez every time.

[Rashoismydad]

I dont know why is Dirk on a such unreachable level. His second year stats were 17.5 ppg 6.5 rpg 2.5 ast 0.8 stp 0.8 bpg on 46 38 83 shooting.

Comparing Jokic to Miller is like comparing Dirk to Anderson who had 16/6.4/1.2/0.5/0.4 on 42 38 84 shooting and Calling young Dirk a rich mans Ryan Anderson.

Because you cant seem to grasp context and role. Dirk was the unquestioned alpha, leader, go to guy in the clutch on an NBA champion. He put the mavs on his back and carried them to a title over a super team by being an unstoppable offensive force. Is Jokic going to pass the nuggets to a title? Teams dont even give a f*ck about Jokic, he isnt a threat worth doubling, hes not an alpha, a #1 scorer, or your go to guy in the clutch.

Did you watch the video where the nuggets sent relentless double teams against the Towns while Jokic was an afterthought to MN yet? But...ADVANCED STATS!

Advanced stats dont make you cold blooded, a leader, or the guy you go to when your team is down 2 with 3 seconds left. KAT already has more clutch game tying/winning shots in 2 years than Jokic will have in a decade. I did a search for "jokic clutch" and found a fun article which highlights this.

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/03/20/nuggets-lose-heartbreaker-james-harden-rockets/

"For the second time in three nights, the ending of a game between the Rockets and Nuggets came down to one player driving to the rim with a chance to lift his team.

The difference Monday night: a potential MVP was playing the role of closer."

"Denver had a shot at a game-winning play of its own, but Nikola Jokic’s sideline inbounds pass toward the rim for Mason Plumlee was knocked away, sending 16,080 fans who helped foster a playoff atmosphere into a euphoric state."

Do the same for Towns and I find numerous, including this fitting one:
http://www.sportsrageous.com/nba/karl-anthony-towns-clutch-leads-timberwolves-past-nuggets/67178/

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[Alatan]

I dont know why is Dirk on a such unreachable level. His second year stats were 17.5 ppg 6.5 rpg 2.5 ast 0.8 stp 0.8 bpg on 46 38 83 shooting.

Comparing Jokic to Miller is like comparing Dirk to Anderson who had 16/6.4/1.2/0.5/0.4 on 42 38 84 shooting and Calling young Dirk a rich mans Ryan Anderson.

Because you cant seem to grasp context and role. Dirk was the unquestioned alpha, leader, go to guy in the clutch on an NBA champion. He put the mavs on his back and carried them to a title over a super team by being an unstoppable offensive force. Is Jokic going to pass the nuggets to a title? Teams dont even give a f*ck about Jokic, he isnt a threat worth doubling, hes not an alpha, a #1 scorer, or your go to guy in the clutch.

Did you watch the video where the nuggets sent relentless double teams against the Towns while Jokic was an afterthought to MN yet? But...ADVANCED STATS!

Advanced stats dont make you cold blooded, a leader, or the guy you go to when your team is down 2 with 3 seconds left. KAT already has more clutch game tying/winning shots in 2 years than Jokic will have in a decade.

You are really bad at arguing you know. I give you reasons why Jokic is good then ask why you think he is not and you just say its laughable. I present you great stats of a second year kid and you compere them to the best stat line of a veteran role player and say Jokic is the same. I follow your logic and do the same with Dirk and you say i dont understand context and role by saying that someone who runs Denvers offense is not good because he doesnt take clutch shot when there are others on the team that are more experienced and suitable for those moments. I guess LeBron and Magic also fail to impress you.
Jokic isn't the leader of the Nuggets? Nuggets don't run their offense through him? Jokic isn't a scorer after averaging 19 ppg as a starter in 50 games ? The reason teams dont double Jokic is because they get so burned by cutters and open 3 pointers that they dont dare repeat.
You may be so furious that there are those that like what Jokic does more than what Towns does but until Towns starts defending and winning i'm taking Jokic.

[Rashoismydad]

For fun I also wanted to remind all the cultists calling Jokic the best passing big man ever created by stat god that Kevin Garnett averaged over 5 assists per game *6* years in a row. But oh man, that Jokic is a one of a kind Dirk-Magic hybrid the likes of which we have never seen!

[Rashoismydad]

You are really bad at arguing you know. I give you reasons why Jokic is good then ask why you think he is not and you just say its laughable. I present you great stats of a second year kid and you compere them to the best stat line of a veteran role player and say Jokic is the same. I follow your logic and do the same with Dirk and you say i dont understand context and role by saying that someone who runs Denvers offense is not good because he doesnt take clutch shot when there are others on the team that are more experienced and suitable for those moments. I guess LeBron and Magic also fail to impress you.
Jokic isn't the leader of the Nuggets? Nuggets don't run their offense through him? Jokic isn't a scorer after averaging 19 ppg as a starter in 50 games ? The reason teams dont double Jokic is because they get so burned by cutters and open 3 pointers that they dont dare repeat.
You may be so furious that there are those that like what Jokic does more than what Towns does but until Towns starts defending and winning i'm taking Jokic.

Watch on YouTube

I know you werent born yet, so I wont hold your ignorance against you.

Ooooh 19 PPG for 50 games! Youre coming real hard!

Right, Jokic is just so f*cking deadly that teams dont dare double him!

This place is insane. It was funny at first but now I simply feel bad for all of you and somewhat depressed. Hopefully at his HOF induction ceremony KAT remembers to thank sharee...rashee...anton...Jokic for allowing him to play in his league.

[sixerswillrule]

They both put up ridiculous numbers. Jokic had the highest TS% for any 15+ points per game 2nd year player in the last 20 years. Towns was #2 (if TS% is too advanced for you, Jokic is #1 in 2P% and FG% too). They tied for 5th in VORP (which is cumulative stat, not a per minute stat) for 2nd year players in the last 20 years, after LeBron, Steve Francis, Duncan, and Paul. Of course Jokic played 800-1200 less minutes than the other 5 players but we can ignore that.

And just looking at the raw numbers while still ignoring minutes, and cutting down the numbers even further to set criteria:

From 16.9 ppg to 15.0
From 9.8 rpg to 8.0
From 4.9 apg to 4.0
From 63% 2P% to 60%

Jokic is the only 2nd year player in the last 40 years to do that. Barkley is right there, though. Even if you ignore the assists (which is of course crazy because his passing is one of his best if not best attribute, and no, Towns is not doing that with a simple role change) and drop the % even lower, the list only includes Jokic, Shaq, Barkley, Cedric Maxwell, and Towns. In the last 40 years. Yes, Jokic put up ridiculous numbers for a 21 year old 2nd player.

Why limit it to 15+ ppg players? The Jokic fans have already established playing time and quantity of shots dont matter, so why not compare him against guys who played 9 minutes less and only scored 12 points? Why not against guys who played 15 minutes less and 10 points? Lets get really arbitrary with it!

VORP = based off BPM = team reliant metric. You kids just dont learn, do you? Keep praying to things you dont understand and shunning those who do, cultist.

You've obviously got some sort of ridiculous bias here. Jokic clearly had one of the best 2nd year seasons in a long time. There is no debating that. The raw numbers show it. The advanced numbers show it. But sure, everyone who disagrees with you is a cultist. Jokic's ceiling is a rich man's Brad Miller. Whatever you say. Apparently there is only allowed to be one hot shot young big man at a time and that's Towns now.

[Alatan]

You are really bad at arguing you know. I give you reasons why Jokic is good then ask why you think he is not and you just say its laughable. I present you great stats of a second year kid and you compere them to the best stat line of a veteran role player and say Jokic is the same. I follow your logic and do the same with Dirk and you say i dont understand context and role by saying that someone who runs Denvers offense is not good because he doesnt take clutch shot when there are others on the team that are more experienced and suitable for those moments. I guess LeBron and Magic also fail to impress you.
Jokic isn't the leader of the Nuggets? Nuggets don't run their offense through him? Jokic isn't a scorer after averaging 19 ppg as a starter in 50 games ? The reason teams dont double Jokic is because they get so burned by cutters and open 3 pointers that they dont dare repeat.
You may be so furious that there are those that like what Jokic does more than what Towns does but until Towns starts defending and winning i'm taking Jokic.

Watch on YouTube

I know you werent born yet, so I wont hold your ignorance against you.

Ooooh 19 PPG for 50 games! Youre coming real hard!

Right, Jokic is just so f*cking deadly that teams dont dare double him!

This place is insane. It was funny at first but now I simply feel bad for all of you and somewhat depressed. Hopefully at his HOF induction ceremony KAT remembers to thank sharee...rashee...anton...Jokic for allowing him to play in his league.

And again no arguments except primitive sarcasm.
Arguing with you is like arguing with a tenyearold.
Jokic is good... No no no Towns gets so much more bukets, he daunks over peoples and makes them look bad. He is so clutch like Kobe even he cant win **** but who cares for wins, it his teammates fault they suck. Towns playing no D is irrelevant but Jokic is so trash because he is this soft white roleplayer that invites others to score in the paint and cant score himself so he throws the ball away to his juggernaut teammates that somehow mage to win anyway.

[sixerswillrule]

They both put up ridiculous numbers. Jokic had the highest TS% for any 15+ points per game 2nd year player in the last 20 years. Towns was #2 (if TS% is too advanced for you, Jokic is #1 in 2P% and FG% too). They tied for 5th in VORP (which is cumulative stat, not a per minute stat) for 2nd year players in the last 20 years, after LeBron, Steve Francis, Duncan, and Paul. Of course Jokic played 800-1200 less minutes than the other 5 players but we can ignore that.

And just looking at the raw numbers while still ignoring minutes, and cutting down the numbers even further to set criteria:

From 16.9 ppg to 15.0
From 9.8 rpg to 8.0
From 4.9 apg to 4.0
From 63% 2P% to 60%

Jokic is the only 2nd year player in the last 40 years to do that. Barkley is right there, though. Even if you ignore the assists (which is of course crazy because his passing is one of his best if not best attribute, and no, Towns is not doing that with a simple role change) and drop the % even lower, the list only includes Jokic, Shaq, Barkley, Cedric Maxwell, and Towns. In the last 40 years. Yes, Jokic put up ridiculous numbers for a 21 year old 2nd player.

Why limit it to 15+ ppg players? The Jokic fans have already established playing time and quantity of shots dont matter, so why not compare him against guys who played 9 minutes less and only scored 12 points? Why not against guys who played 15 minutes less and 10 points? Lets get really arbitrary with it!

VORP = based off BPM = team reliant metric. You kids just dont learn, do you? Keep praying to things you dont understand and shunning those who do, cultist.

Also

A) I never said that Jokic would necessarily maintain his efficiency with more minutes and shots and I don't think that.

B) Limit it to 12 points per game, Jokic is still #1...

[nomansland]

I sorta wish people would stop hyping Jokic, especially in a Jokic vs. Towns conversation. History will show us who is a "better" player- and even then people will still probably be arguing- but in the meantime I just want to watch some great basketball and Jokic delivers that.

[Gus McCrae]

Regarding the Brad Miller discussion...just out of curiosity was True shooting % a regularly tracked stat back in the early 2000s? I ask because it seems unfair to measure that stat against players 2 players when one played in an era where midrange shots were encouraged vs nowadays when players are told to focus on layups and 3s which boosts the TS%. I'm not sayin Brad miller was an equal scorer to Jokic but that has to be taken into consideration. If Brad miler was told to focus on 3s/layups and Jokic was told to open the floor with elbow jumpers wouldn't we see a much closer TS% ? This is a question/concept I actually have across the board when comparing eras

[Alatan]

Regarding the Brad Miller discussion...just out of curiosity was True shooting % a regularly tracked stat back in the early 2000s? I ask because it seems unfair to measure that stat against players 2 players when one played in an era where midrange shots were encouraged vs nowadays when players are told to focus on layups and 3s which boosts the TS%. I'm not sayin Brad miller was an equal scorer to Jokic but that has to be taken into consideration. If Brad miler was told to focus on 3s/layups and Jokic was told to open the floor with elbow jumpers wouldn't we see a much closer TS% ? This is a question/concept I actually have across the board when comparing eras

It doesn't really mater because elbow jumpers is what Jokic excels at.
Here is his shot chart.
http://nbasavant.com/player.php?player_id=203999

[Alatan]

Here are some nice videos on Jokic as a Point Center.

Watch on YouTube

;

Watch on YouTube

;t=185s

[Johnny Firpo]

About Dirk, not only my favorite player wasn't really an alpha in his first two years, he was thinking about going back to Europe in his first season. In terms of poise, leadership and pure talent, Jokic is definitely better than 22-year-old Dirk was, and I can say that confidently. Now what separated Dirk was his relentless work ethic. People talk about Kobe as this machine, and he himself liked to put himself in that light. Dirk done the same amount of work and maybe some more, regularly showing up in empty gyms at 5, 6 AM. The guy was an animal in terms of preparation, and worked through most summers with Holger, coming up with all sorts of weird training methods. Whether Jokic has that kind of hunger, we'll have to see. He probably doesn't, very few does, but he is so talented that even with a good but not great work ethic, he can be a perennial Top 10 player in the league. Based on the last 30+ games of last season, he is already there, even when he plays slightly above 30 minutes.

[Johnny Firpo]

C with no D is a fools gold unless he's putting up ridiculous numbers offensively (even then I'm skeptical) not freaking 16 ppg. Would rather have Ben Wallace than Brook Lopez every time.

Anybody would rather have Ben Wallace than Brook Lopez, duh. Your problem is not realizing that Jokic was two tiers above the best version of Lopez... in his rookie season, never mind his sophomore. Come on guys, you either need to be educated on him, or if you have a bias, that's totally fine, but in that case some better trolling would be appreciated. Lead us along the way, throw some crumbs that we can eat up, and then bamm, shut the door. You can't just start with dumb statements like that, and expect to build up tension. It's just not gonna happen.