All Things Luka Doncic

[Bob8]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHhS1X2XYAQV5g2?format=jpg&name=large

[Bob8]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHhS1X2XYAQV5g2?format=jpg&name=large

Doncic 5/8 for 3points, all others 2/20, Dragic 1/6.

[Wildlinger]

Another great and almost effortless offensive game from Doncic and on the other hand another game where he played absolutely horrendous defense. He’s an excellent rebounder so that might be his saving grace in the NBA, but if he’s not even capable of staying in front of freaking Omri Casspi, his defense will continue to raise questions.

Casspi got the first step on him twice and both times went on for an easy dunk. We’re not talking about a speedy guard here, we’re talking about a 6’8 - 6’9 relatively slow footed SF/PF shooter. Casspi hung an effortless 23 pts on 9-14 shooting and 3-5 from three, along with 8 boards on Doncic who was his primary defender. With defense like that Doncic won’t be anything more than a Eurobasket traffic cone on that side of the floor and it might cost Slovenia dearly. Hopefully he can keep with up his offensive prowess, so he can balance his absolutely abysmal on ball defense.

[XTraderXL]

The whole team plays bad defense, it looks like nobody is even trying. Doncic is ok on defense when he is actually trying to play it. If you watched other friendlies you could see that he only played defense in spurts when the games were tight like against Croatia. He played good defense on Bogdanovic in the last few minutes of the game, Bogdanovic couldnt get a clean shot against him. On Real he plays much better defense against better players so I think his defense will improve once we get to the actual Eurobasket. If the best players on the team play bad defense, why in the world would he be trying to play hard in friendly games? There are other players that play defense, Doncic is there to score and make plays.

[soulzen]

nice dunk https://youtu.be/U-Qx5qoVYoY?t=154

[Bob8]

Another great and almost effortless offensive game from Doncic and on the other hand another game where he played absolutely horrendous defense. He’s an excellent rebounder so that might be his saving grace in the NBA, but if he’s not even capable of staying in front of freaking Omri Casspi, his defense will continue to raise questions.

Casspi got the first step on him twice and both times went on for an easy dunk. We’re not talking about a speedy guard here, we’re talking about a 6’8 - 6’9 relatively slow footed SF/PF shooter. Casspi hung an effortless 23 pts on 9-14 shooting and 3-5 from three, along with 8 boards on Doncic who was his primary defender. With defense like that Doncic won’t be anything more than a Eurobasket traffic cone on that side of the floor and it might cost Slovenia dearly. Hopefully he can keep with up his offensive prowess, so he can balance his absolutely abysmal on ball defense.

So it's only Doncic's bad defense? What about others shooting 2/20 for 3s? Or what about top10 Nba Pg shooting something around 3/24 for 3s in preparation games, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, Dragic in al 5 games played scored less 3s than Doncic against Israel. I know what you will say, this games are meaningless for Dragic. But Doncic has to play every defense on max. What double standards have we here.

[SportsGuy8]

Wildlinger is right, though. Even if he's not trying 100%, he still shouldn't be having such problems. Imagine what's going to happen in the NBA, against freakish athletes and with NBA rules ...

He's proven that he can be really good at other parts of defense, though. His smarts should also hide certain shortcomings ...

[XTraderXL]

In NBA they will hide him on defense, like they do with many other players. Doncic is smart so he will be just fine in help defense, he can block shots and knows how to rotate at the right time. As I said, go back and watch the game against Croatia. When it mattered, he played very good defense on Bogdanovic who couldnt get past him and couldnt get his shot off. He is clearly playing at 50% most of the game in these friendlies.

Bob8 is correct, when he plays good on offense (clearly Slovenias best player and scorer) it doesnt matter because these are friendly games. And when he doesnt play defense, its a big deal in those same exact games. You guys have to decide if the games matter or not otherwise this discussion is pointless and we should just wait for 2 more weeks until Eurobasket. Again, on Real Madrid he plays better on ball defense against better players because he knows that if he plays half ass like on NT, he will not get minutes. Here he can afford to play like he plays because his minutes are guaranteed if he is efficient on offense. Having an offensive minded coach who clearly doesnt care much about defense also contributes to this.

When I was still playing, I never ever played 100% defense in friendly games. My max was about 50-60% and that was it. His spot on the team is guaranteed and there is no reason why he should be giving more than say 60% on defense in these games. Offensively its a different story but still guys dont play at 100% except for those who are still fighting for their roster spot.

[Bob8]

Wildlinger is right, though. Even if he's not trying 100%, he still shouldn't be having such problems. Imagine what's going to happen in the NBA, against freakish athletes and with NBA rules ...

He's proven that he can be really good at other parts of defense, though. His smarts should also hide certain shortcomings ...

This same Wildlinger said how this games are meaningless.

[Mirotic12]

Wildlinger is right, though. Even if he's not trying 100%, he still shouldn't be having such problems. Imagine what's going to happen in the NBA, against freakish athletes and with NBA rules ...

He's proven that he can be really good at other parts of defense, though. His smarts should also hide certain shortcomings ...

His defense issues should be zero surprise to anyone that is at all objective. We already saw last season he can't guard any 1,2,3 position players that have athleticism and quickness. They just blow by him like he's not even there.

A lot of excuses keep being made even in this recent discussion for that - "he's just 18", "he was tired at the end of the season", "but his teammates were also bad at defense", "but look at how many NBA and EuroLeague point guards are bad at defense", etc. All just a bunch of excuses for the fact he has really slow feet and can't guard anyone with athleticism on the perimeter.

With that being said, the notion that Dragic is somehow equally skilled to Doncic on offense, or that he is even better offensively than Doncic.........is totally disingenuous, to say the least.

Doncic clearly has way more natural basketball IQ, feel for the game, instinct, and all around offensive skills than Dragic does. But also, very clearly, he has really slow feet and can't guard man to man in space at all.

[Bob8]

Doncic in 6 preparation games,

21/37 3pts, 56%
20/27 2pts, 74%
18.5 pts avg.
7.5 rbd

Best scorer in 5/6 games.

Dragic 3/24 3pts, 12%

@Mirotic12

How many games are playing 1 or 2 years older prospects in NCAA?

Who can guard Harden&co in Nba? It looks to me they don't even have to try to play in defense.

If Doncic will be able to score 20+ points on regular basis, big if, his defense won't matter at all, and he will always be very good rebounder.

[Thespianoid]

is there a full game link anywhere? or just highlights

[Mirotic12]

Doncic in 6 preparation games,

21/37 3pts, 56%
20/27 2pts, 74%
7.5 rbd

Best scorer in 5/6 games.

Dragic 3/24 3pts, 12%

@Mirotic12

How many games are playing 1 or 2 years older prospects in NCAA?

Who can guard Harden&co in Nba? It looks to me they don't even have to try to play in defense.

If Doncic will be able to score 20+ points on regular basis, big if, his defense won't matter at all, and he will always be very good rebounder.

Defense is almost banned by current NBA rules and reffing. So yes, that is correct. However, that still does not change the fact that Doncic obviously has very slow feet on defense. Both are true. If anything, NBA ismuch better for Doncic, because his slow feet won't be such an issue there, since he will just be another player that can't play any defense.

In EuroLeague, not playing defense because you can't, is a problem. In NBA, it really makes you no different than guys that can play defense, but can't do so, due to the rules and reffing.

But the point is, Doncic has those slow feet, and it's just a fact he has that weakness as a player. There is no reason to make excuses for something that he does in fact have as a negative.

[Bob8]

Doncic in 6 preparation games,

21/37 3pts, 56%
20/27 2pts, 74%
7.5 rbd

Best scorer in 5/6 games.

Dragic 3/24 3pts, 12%

@Mirotic12

How many games are playing 1 or 2 years older prospects in NCAA?

Who can guard Harden&co in Nba? It looks to me they don't even have to try to play in defense.

If Doncic will be able to score 20+ points on regular basis, big if, his defense won't matter at all, and he will always be very good rebounder.

Defense is almost banned by current NBA rules and reffing. So yes, that is correct. However, that still does not change the fact that Doncic obviously has very slow feet on defense. Both are true. If anything, NBA ismuch better for Doncic, because his slow feet won't be such an issue there, since he will just be another player that can't play any defense.

In EuroLeague, not playing defense because you can't, is a problem. In NBA, it really makes you no different than guys that can play defense, but can't do so, due to the rules and reffing.

But the point is, Doncic has those slow feet, and it's just a fact he has that weakness as a player. There is no reason to make excuses for something that he does in fact have as a negative.

Nobody is making excuses. If he had fast feet too, we won't have any conversation, because he would really be better prospect than Lebron.
When we're looking at his defense we should take in consideration his age and the fact he's playing with professionals. He will never be great defender, but he won't be the worst defender in the Nba neither.

[Wildlinger]

This same Wildlinger said how this games are meaningless.

Nah, I didn’t say that. I just said they don’t matter when we’re assessing the shooting abilities of a 31 year old NBA veteran, who just finished yet another season averaging over 20 points while his shot chart looked like this… not for a game, for the entire season.



I won’t post Doncic’s shot chart for the previous season, because I don’t want anybody to “perceive it as Doncic hate.” Looks good actually, just not as green as Dragic’s does. I got dragged into this debate, I didn’t start it. I just corrected some obvious fallacies.

In fact, the shooting debate about Doncic should actually be how he’ll adapt to the NBA three pointer. His mechanics look good, so I don’t think he’ll have any serious problems adjusting. But there are numerous examples of players having good 3 point shooting season in NCAA basketball and not being able to translate those numbers to NBA.

Case in point, Justise Winslow. He shot 41.8% from three in his only NCAA season on a good sample size (2.8 attempts per game). Next 2 seasons he shot only 25.8% from an NBA three (1.6 attempts per game).

So the question of who’s a better shooter, Dragic or Doncic, is pointless until we see how will Doncic adapt to a longer three. I think he’ll adapt well, but some in this thread are actually belittling players who already had great 3P shooting seasons in the actual NBA.

Unlike Winslow, Dragic actually improved his shot after he came over. He shot 27.3% in his one Euroleague season (13 games). He than changed his shot during the summer after he got drafted and shot 37% in his rookie season. He finished his sophomore season shooting 39.4% from three. Last season Dragic was actually 3rd in the NBA in three point pull up percentage, usually a sign of a good shooter. So you can never really tell how exactly will three point shooting translate. Best you can do is an educated guess.

The title of this thread obviously refers to the NBA league, not Euroleague. I feel like some here should probably be constantly reminded of that. We’re not debating if Doncic is going to be good in Europe. He’s already great in Europe. Only one player had more round MVPs than Doncic last season. If he’d stay in Europe he’d easily win multiple Euroleague MVP titles. But that’s not the debate here. The debate is how his game is going to translate to the league with by far the best basketball talent available.

Btw, turnover percentage is not the same as assist to turnover ratio ratio.

[CptCrunch]

Doncic's value lies within his ability to play point guard at an elite level in NBA. All this lack of defense or efficient scoring doesn't matter one bit. Drafting him as a SF is just a terrible move.

[Wildlinger]

Here's the example I like to use, when some try to argue that defense doesn't matter in the Association.

Harden finished the 15-16 season averaging 29 pts, 6.1 reb, 7.1 ast and 1.7 stl. He wasn’t All-NBA that season. 1st, 2nd or 3rd. No All-NBA for no-defense Harden. His numbers were excellent. By far the highest PER among all shooting guards. Even his rebounding numbers which is something Doncic also excels at. But the talk that season around Harden was all about his non-existent matador defense and it cost him.

I got a Harden flashback today while watching Casspi blow by Doncic like he wasn’t even there. I’ve seen some Harden/Doncic comparisons floating around and they’re worth exploring further. And to be clear, not just on defense, on offense as well. But the main point is, defense matters. If Harden couldn’t get a single All-NBA team putting up those numbers, think of what might happen with Doncic. This is where I’m very interested in how Lonzo will do next season and how much flak he’ll get for bad defense.

[CptCrunch]

Here's the example I like to use, when some try to argue that defense doesn't matter in the Association.

Harden finished the 15-16 season averaging 29 pts, 6.1 reb, 7.1 ast and 1.7 stl. He wasn’t All-NBA that season. 1st, 2nd or 3rd. No All-NBA for no-defense Harden. His numbers were excellent. By far the highest PER among all shooting guards. Even his rebounding numbers which is something Doncic also excels at. But the talk that season around Harden was all about his non-existent matador defense and it cost him.

I got a Harden flashback today while watching Casspi blow by Doncic like he wasn’t even there. I’ve seen some Harden/Doncic comparisons floating around and they’re worth exploring further. And to be clear, not just on defense, on offense as well. But the main point is, defense matters. If Harden couldn’t get a single All-NBA team putting up those numbers, think of what might happen with Doncic. This is where I’m very interested in how Lonzo will do next season and how much flak he’ll get for bad defense.

Harden got hated on by the media mercilessly that year. Hate != bad. Harden wasn't a plus defender, but he was not nearly as bad as the media/reddit/realgm/twitter made him out to be.

Hate also cost Harden an MVP in 2017

2016 - lol Rockets team record bad. Curry > Harden.

2017 - lol Rockets too stacked. Westbrook carried scrubs. Westbrook > Harden

[Mirotic12]

The title of this thread obviously refers to the NBA league, not Euroleague. I feel like some here should probably be constantly reminded of that. We’re not debating if Doncic is going to be good in Europe. He’s already great in Europe. Only one player had more round MVPs than Doncic last season. If he’d stay in Europe he’d easily win multiple Euroleague MVP titles. But that’s not the debate here. The debate is how his game is going to translate to the league with by far the best basketball talent available.

Btw, turnover percentage is not the same as assist to turnover ratio ratio.

Yeah....he's going to "easily" do something that all the greatest EuroLeague players didn't do......he's "easily" going to do what

Sabonis
Bodiroga
Spanoulis
Papaloukas
Navarro
Diamantidis
Jasikevicius
Ginobili
Teodosic
Llull

etc., etc., etc. he is going to "easily" do what none of them could do.....

And some people wonder why this thread gets derailed............

Also, Doncic was an 8/4 player last season in EuroLeague. Sorry, but that is nowhere close to "already great".

[Wildlinger]

Doncic's value lies within his ability to play point guard at an elite level in NBA. All this lack of defense or efficient scoring doesn't matter one bit. Drafting him as a SF is just a terrible move.

In my mind he’s clearly a point forward. I think he'll be great if the team is built around him. If they surround him with defensive minded shooters and a good strong pick and roll big, he'll be a potential ROY candidate in a draft class which may end up being much better than this season’s. Bagley, Porter and Doncic all have franchise potential. And right now Bagley’s a clear #1 pick with Doncic and Porter vying for the 2nd spot.

I think Knicks might be a good team for Doncic. If Ntilikina can be a consistent 3 point shooter, along with Hernangómez and Porzingis there might be something there if they draft Doncic as their point forward. Just a thought.