How good is Jokic? [Poll added]

[Wolfgang630]

This next season will be good. I'll be paying attention more to these guys. KP is already better defensively than Towns and Jokic. But hey let's ignore that when it comes to him.

Hopefully Melo won't be around so he can be first option. Ball hog Rose is gone, which is a plus.

I like watching all these guys like Towns, KP, Jokic, Embiid and Giannis because they're the future of the league. I want them all to reach their potentials and meet in the playoffs.

[Acountant_Z]

Jokic is a special player and if you don't want to acknowledge it now, you'll understand in the next seasons.

It is impossible to convince someone who never watched him play why he is so revered by some fans. He is such an oddity.

[Pablo Escobar]

His court vision is something else.

[Xanadu]

He is the leagues best player under 25.

and this is from a jokic hater who was proved wrong when i doubted him and hated on denver fans last year. obviously he has to reproduce what he did last year, in a full year with more focus. but i dont see why he cant be a top 12 player this season

Are there many that think he is better than Giannis or believe he will be. I love Jokic he is underrated but no way is better all around player than Giannis. Also due to athletic ability I think Giannis has the higher ceiling without a doubt. Giannis also has a easier path to reaching that ceiling as shooting is one of the easier skills to improve. I know in a poll between who would you take Giannis would kill but how many would take Jokic and why? Just curious.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Denvers Win-Loss with Jokic playing 37-36 (9-16 when he was not in his P-C role, 28-20 when he was) Win-Loss without Jokic 3-6. Oh but it is a team stat, sorry but basketball is a team game.

That stat is lol because of the limited non-Jokic samplesize, pseudostatman. Not that I don't think denver is probably quite the losing team sans jokic

[Acountant_Z]

He is the leagues best player under 25.

and this is from a jokic hater who was proved wrong when i doubted him and hated on denver fans last year. obviously he has to reproduce what he did last year, in a full year with more focus. but i dont see why he cant be a top 12 player this season

Are there many that think he is better than Giannis or believe he will be. I love Jokic he is underrated but no way is better all around player than Giannis. Also due to athletic ability I think Giannis has the higher ceiling without a doubt. Giannis also has a easier path to reaching that ceiling as shooting is one of the easier skills to improve. I know in a poll between who would you take Giannis would kill but how many would take Jokic and why? Just curious.

Why do you need to compare the two? They are so different but they both have an aura that makes them look better than anyone else around them. They both do unusual things that just make you gasp in amazement. I can only compare Gannis to LBJ, I have no one I can compare Jokic to.

[kinggnik87]

He is the leagues best player under 25.

and this is from a jokic hater who was proved wrong when i doubted him and hated on denver fans last year. obviously he has to reproduce what he did last year, in a full year with more focus. but i dont see why he cant be a top 12 player this season

Are there many that think he is better than Giannis or believe he will be. I love Jokic he is underrated but no way is better all around player than Giannis. Also due to athletic ability I think Giannis has the higher ceiling without a doubt. Giannis also has a easier path to reaching that ceiling as shooting is one of the easier skills to improve. I know in a poll between who would you take Giannis would kill but how many would take Jokic and why? Just curious.

Good question. IMHO, both are great players. Greek Freak and Joker are both one of a kind, both have the ability to make everyone around him better. Both are hard to defend against as well. The only weakness (i see) in Giannis is shooting, while Jokic is weak at defense. Both can be improved as well.

Considering all that, I will still pick Jokic because of his style of basketball of not relying too much of athleticism, but more on skills and technique. I prefer longevity players so yeah. Not saying Giannis won't be able to last long in the league, he can turn out like Lebron if he takes care of his body. But until that happens, I will choose Jokic as it is the safest bet.

[Xanadu]

He is the leagues best player under 25.

and this is from a jokic hater who was proved wrong when i doubted him and hated on denver fans last year. obviously he has to reproduce what he did last year, in a full year with more focus. but i dont see why he cant be a top 12 player this season

Are there many that think he is better than Giannis or believe he will be. I love Jokic he is underrated but no way is better all around player than Giannis. Also due to athletic ability I think Giannis has the higher ceiling without a doubt. Giannis also has a easier path to reaching that ceiling as shooting is one of the easier skills to improve. I know in a poll between who would you take Giannis would kill but how many would take Jokic and why? Just curious.

Good question. IMHO, both are great players. Greek Freak and Joker are both one of a kind, both have the ability to make everyone around him better. Both are hard to defend against as well. The only weakness (i see) in Giannis is shooting, while Jokic is weak at defense. Both can be improved as well.

Considering all that, I will still pick Jokic because of his style of basketball of not relying too much of athleticism, but more on skills and technique. I prefer longevity players so yeah. Not saying Giannis won't be able to last long in the league, he can turn out like Lebron if he takes care of his body. But until that happens, I will choose Jokic as it is the safest bet.

Well the truth is that Giannis athleticism relies much more on the use of his length than on speed or leaping. Giannis use of his natural length is the best in the nba especially when attacking. His body control is what makes him so freakish in my view. While young Lebron was like a tank using his unparalleled strength and leaping to make himself a unstoppable force when attacking. Giannis on the other hand is like water he flows through the D and is able to slip through gaps and use his stride to make moves no other player can make to rim. But as far as improving goes I think its far more likely Giannis becomes a shooter closer to Jokic level than Jokic gets close to Giannis level of impact on D. Giannis has defensive player of the year potential and can rim protect and lock down on the perimeter. Giannis ability to impact the game will be greater than Jokic because in terms of two way potential Giannis has shown by far the most of any young player imo. He is really underrated offensive player and his post game has improved a lot. Even with players sagging off and the entire D collapsing Giannis can still find a way to finish at the rim. Passing is pretty close between the two although they are different types of passers and Jokic passing is incredible with a offense game planned around him. But Giannis can carry the load offensively and guard 1-5 on defense. Giannis has also shown the ability to play heavy minutes and has so far shown to be more durable. Heck I would love to see what Giannis could do with any semblance of a offensive game plan set to maximize his talent. Instead Kidd runs a offensive scheme that most AAU coaches run. Trying not to be homerish and think Jokic is the second player I would take starting a franchise(Unless Embid injury risk was gone) but to me there is a decent gap between 1 and 2 in this conversation. I think most fans of other teams would agree with me but I respect your opinion and love your boy.

[kinggnik87]

Good question. IMHO, both are great players. Greek Freak and Joker are both one of a kind, both have the ability to make everyone around him better. Both are hard to defend against as well. The only weakness (i see) in Giannis is shooting, while Jokic is weak at defense. Both can be improved as well.

Considering all that, I will still pick Jokic because of his style of basketball of not relying too much of athleticism, but more on skills and technique. I prefer longevity players so yeah. Not saying Giannis won't be able to last long in the league, he can turn out like Lebron if he takes care of his body. But until that happens, I will choose Jokic as it is the safest bet.

Well the truth is that Giannis athleticism relies much more on the use of his length than on speed or leaping. Giannis use of his natural length is the best in the nba especially when attacking. His body control is what makes him so freakish in my view. While young Lebron was like a tank using his unparalleled strength and leaping to make himself a unstoppable force when attacking. Giannis on the other hand is like water he flows through the D and is able to slip through gaps and use his stride to make moves no other player can make to rim. But as far as improving goes I think its far more likely Giannis becomes a shooter closer to Jokic level than Jokic gets close to Giannis level of impact on D. Giannis has defensive player of the year potential and can rim protect and lock down on the perimeter. Giannis ability to impact the game will be greater than Jokic because in terms of two way potential Giannis has shown by far the most of any young player imo. He is really underrated offensive player and his post game has improved a lot. Even with players sagging off and the entire D collapsing Giannis can still find a way to finish at the rim. Passing is pretty close between the two although they are different types of passers and Jokic passing is incredible with a offense game planned around him. But Giannis can carry the load offensively and guard 1-5 on defense. Giannis has also shown the ability to play heavy minutes and has so far shown to be more durable. Heck I would love to see what Giannis could do with any semblance of a offensive game plan set to maximize his talent. Instead Kidd runs a offensive scheme that most AAU coaches run. Trying not to be homerish and think Jokic is the second player I would take starting a franchise(Unless Embid injury risk was gone) but to me there is a decent gap between 1 and 2 in this conversation. I think most fans of other teams would agree with me but I respect your opinion and love your boy.

Thanks for your input too.
Well, I basically agree on most of your points except the bold part. IMO, Jokic feel for the game and BBIQ is off the chart, and the way he prepares himself and body movement is unique (there's a word for it but I forgot). Hence there is no way Giannis is able to reach Jokic shooting level because from 3-20 feet, Nikola Jokic leads the league with an astounding 58.8 FG% last season. https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6r6h5s/from_320_feet_nikola_jokic_leads_the_league_with/ There are things you can improve by practicing shooting, but some people has such amazing footwork and body control that you just can't imitate. For instance, Hakeem's footwork and his famous dreamshake. No offense to Giannis, but until now I don't see him doing (or can do) anything like that. As for Jokic's defense, yeah, no way he will reach Giannis level lol.

Also, your statement of 'Giannis ability to impact the game will be greater than Jokic' is debatable too. As said by many people in this thread, as soon as Jokic was inserted into Denver's starting lineup, the offense becomes the BEST offense in the whole NBA.

Hence, I believe Jokic ability to impact the game will be greater than Giannis.

[NuggetsWY]

How good is Jokic? Good enough to generate a lot of discussion. Good enough to be compared to the other best young players in the NBA today. Good enough to draw a few comparisons to past legends. Unusual enough to find most of the comparisons rather silly.

[dballislife]

you can look at his advanced numbers all you want but 16ppg on a bad non playoff is still 16ppg on a bad team, which is nothing special...remember loves monster what like 26 14 5 numbers on a bad team...you gotta put up great numbers on a great team before you can call yourself a great player, though i do believe he can do it

[sixerswillrule]

you can look at his advanced numbers all you want but 16ppg on a bad non playoff is still 16ppg on a bad team, which is nothing special...remember loves monster what like 26 14 5 numbers on a bad team...you gotta put up great numbers on a great team before you can call yourself a great player, though i do believe he can do it

Jokic's value is beyond just the number of points that he scores. And a 40 win team is an average team, not a bad team. Love also won 40 games in that season. Bucks only won 42 games last season, I guess Giannis isn't a great player yet? (Nuggets were clearly at about the same level as a team as the Bucks, playoffs or no playoffs.).

[The Rebel]

you can look at his advanced numbers all you want but 16ppg on a bad non playoff is still 16ppg on a bad team, which is nothing special...remember loves monster what like 26 14 5 numbers on a bad team...you gotta put up great numbers on a great team before you can call yourself a great player, though i do believe he can do it

The Nuggets were an average team, especially if you consider that the NBA admitting that the refs cost the Nuggets 2 games last year. So the question is if that means nothing for Jokic, what does that say about guys like KAT, Wiggins, Turner, Saric, Davis, Cousins, Porzingis, and Booker?

[Wolfgang630]

you can look at his advanced numbers all you want but 16ppg on a bad non playoff is still 16ppg on a bad team, which is nothing special...remember loves monster what like 26 14 5 numbers on a bad team...you gotta put up great numbers on a great team before you can call yourself a great player, though i do believe he can do it

Remember KAT's numbers on a bad Minnesota team? Seriously, all these young guys will be on BAD teams for the most part.

[mefromthefuture]

you can look at his advanced numbers all you want but 16ppg on a bad non playoff is still 16ppg on a bad team, which is nothing special...remember loves monster what like 26 14 5 numbers on a bad team...you gotta put up great numbers on a great team before you can call yourself a great player, though i do believe he can do it

Remember KAT's numbers on a bad Minnesota team? Seriously, all these young guys will be on BAD teams for the most part.

Also remember only denver players have potential everyone else has already peaked.

Also if 40 wins is good does this mean klove was not a stat padder i am confused now

[Prokorov]

He is the leagues best player under 25.

and this is from a jokic hater who was proved wrong when i doubted him and hated on denver fans last year. obviously he has to reproduce what he did last year, in a full year with more focus. but i dont see why he cant be a top 12 player this season

Are there many that think he is better than Giannis or believe he will be. I love Jokic he is underrated but no way is better all around player than Giannis. Also due to athletic ability I think Giannis has the higher ceiling without a doubt. Giannis also has a easier path to reaching that ceiling as shooting is one of the easier skills to improve. I know in a poll between who would you take Giannis would kill but how many would take Jokic and why? Just curious.

I cant speak for anyone else, but for me its Jokic and not close... i was a jokic hater but after denver fans called me i out i watched him nightly and i was waaaay wrong. not to hate on giannis... he is a top 10 player for sure.

I think Jokic could maybe be the leagues best and most dominant player by 2021

[GreatWhiteStiff]

you can look at his advanced numbers all you want but 16ppg on a bad non playoff is still 16ppg on a bad team, which is nothing special...remember loves monster what like 26 14 5 numbers on a bad team...you gotta put up great numbers on a great team before you can call yourself a great player, though i do believe he can do it

Love's (and rubios to almost the same degree's) greatest fault was when they didn't play the team they were on got **** destroyed. Maybe if love/Rubio could've added to the bench they wouldn't be considered such losers by 1337 internet foruming general managers.

[The Rebel]

you can look at his advanced numbers all you want but 16ppg on a bad non playoff is still 16ppg on a bad team, which is nothing special...remember loves monster what like 26 14 5 numbers on a bad team...you gotta put up great numbers on a great team before you can call yourself a great player, though i do believe he can do it

Remember KAT's numbers on a bad Minnesota team? Seriously, all these young guys will be on BAD teams for the most part.

Also remember only denver players have potential everyone else has already peaked.

Also if 40 wins is good does this mean klove was not a stat padder i am confused now

I have yet to see anybody say anything of the sort, but saying the Nuggets had the most players in the rotation 22 or younger than anybody in the league is a fact, and yet they won more games than any of the supposed young teams. So I would say the Nuggets have just as high if not a higher ceiling than the young hyped teams.

[Duke4life831]

you can look at his advanced numbers all you want but 16ppg on a bad non playoff is still 16ppg on a bad team, which is nothing special...remember loves monster what like 26 14 5 numbers on a bad team...you gotta put up great numbers on a great team before you can call yourself a great player, though i do believe he can do it

So are we just exposed to not talk about young players till theyre on good teams? Basically all good young players get stuck with bad teams in the beginning of their careers. And scoring points is not the only way to measure if someone is a good player or not, again this is why advanced stats have become so popular the past decade. 16 points a game on some of the most efficient shooting in the NBA, not even playing 30 minutes a game, being a stud rebounder and being the best passing big in the NBA kind of makes up for that fact he is only scoring 16 points a game. Steve Nash career high in scoring was 18 ppg, he was still able to be one of the most effective offensive players we have seen in the last couple decades.

And others have already pointed out, if we arent going to judge players until theyre on great teams, then we cant look at guys like KAT, Giannis, Embiid, KP and so on because none of them are on good teams yet. Giannis and the Bucks only won 2 more games than Denver did last year.

[SF_Warriors]

you can look at his advanced numbers all you want but 16ppg on a bad non playoff is still 16ppg on a bad team, which is nothing special...remember loves monster what like 26 14 5 numbers on a bad team...you gotta put up great numbers on a great team before you can call yourself a great player, though i do believe he can do it

I like how you rounded down on his season averages to make your point.. 16.7 ppg does not round to 16. Also, his ppg for the season needs to be taken into context. His minutes were limited and inconsistent the first two months of the season. Looking at the stats from the last 3-4 months of the season, jokic averaged over 19 ppg in about 30mpg.


Jokic at age 21 averaged more points, assists, blocks, steals on much higher efficiency shooting, and in less minutes than love did at the same age. In fact, jokic had a higher TS% last year than love has had in his entire career. The only thing love did at a higher level at the same age was rebounding, which jokic did at a near elite rate as it is.


His team also won 25 games more than love's at the same age. Of course it can be attributed to better teammates for jokic but he was clearly the best player on the team.