Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 1

[lazyboy62]

Personal opinion, Bron won't come here. Cleveland or L.A. With L.A. he has a second chance to be the man on a team that would feed his ego. I don't think he would get that here, well, at least not as much as he would like. I would like to continue to develop the guppies that we have. And Marion, fragile ego aside, was a beast, not sure if you can take that from him. Re-watch some of his highlight films if you might have forgotten. He was Nash's go to dump guy, every time.

[asudevil]

I think the suns are hard banking on Cousins. And are either hoping for NO to collapse before the AS break, and work out either a trade for cheap, or are going to make a big push this next off season. Here is my reasoning:

a.) Len. They havent committed money to him. Yes, he probably isnt ever going to be a star, but he does put up good numbers when given minutes. He's a 14/11 per 36 on 50% shooting, yet hasnt even be offered even a lowball contract. IMO this shows they are less than comfortable offering a C a long term contract no matter the price. And yes, he's probably not suited for today's NBA at the C, but the fact that the suns are keeping that starting slot partially open says something to me.

b.) Sauce. He was signed to an amazingly team friendly contract. One year guaranteed, for a VERY favorable amount regardless of its length. This leaves the suns with many options. If they can find a suitor for Chandler then Sauce is retained to his tiny contract, and if not, then Sauce can be released with Chandler taking the backup role.

c.) the Bledsoe connection. Cousins and Bledsoe are buds, and reuniting them would be something both are probably in favor of.

d.) cap space. The suns are one of the few teams that havent spent money like fools when they've had the opportunity. Chandler/Dudley got money yes, but they were signed to favorable contracts considering the money spent around the league. Nothing they have done has restricted them from making a max contract offer.

e.) McD's extension. With McD getting a couple years added to his contract, i think he's sold Sarver on a plan to be competitive within 2 years. He's added a ton of youth, and needs 2+ years to show that it has been for something. He doesnt wont to go the way of the Hinkie, and let years of youth movement mean nothing. He wants to prove that he just needs a year or two of development and the addition of a star (something Hinkie didnt get) in order to turn this franchise around.

f.) The C. This kinda encapsulates everything. The ONLY slot left in the open right now is the starting C. For the foreseeable future at the moment we have:

?/Sauce or Chandler
Chriss/Bender
Jackson/Warren
Booker
Bledsoe/Ulis

The only question mark is what the hell are we doing at the starting C slot?

My guess is this is the LAST year of "The Timeline." I think what the suns are banking on, and hoping for, at the end of the 2018 offseason is something like:

Cousins
Chriss/Bender
Jackson/Warren/Jones
Booker
Bledsoe/Ulis

And then use their top 5 pick to go BPA at either the C/PF/SG.

They'll either try and use Chandler/Heat 2018/Suns 2019 to make a trade for Cousins if NO fails in their Cousins/Davis experiment, or use the Heat 2018 First as bait for someone to take on Chandler in order to free up cap space to sign Cousins in the offseason.

[AtheJ415]

I am pretty torn on Cousins. I think he could be great for us in some ways. Assuming we do keep Bled, I think that may help reign Cousins in a bit, which could lead to some much needed maturation. That said, I still think we're better off moving on from Bled since he will be an FA in 2 seasons and going younger. Ulis showed a lot last season, and I think we may be able to draft a PG with the Miami pick who we would want to grab minutes.

Cousins does solve our biggest positional weakness, though we probably will draft a big guy with our pick next season given how many of the top players are capable of playing center in this next draft. Ideally though, we can snag Doncic or Porter (one of the perimeter guys), and then grab Cousins. Or take Ayton or Mamba and still grab Cousins, dumping Sauce or Len in the process.

When I look at the available stars, Cousins is the only one I can see us grabbing in FA or at a discount via trade. The others I just can't see wanting to sign up for the rebuild.

[NavLDO]

I think this team will be bottom 5 if it remains as is. Probably right there around the 5 spot. I think trading Bledsoe for a young player puts us in the top pick conversation (bottom 3). The Irving trade, assuming it is Bledsoe plus something good/positive like Warren would still keep us bottom 5 imo.

People in earlier threads suggesting we were late lottery I think are in a pipe dream. It would be great if that happened to an extent because it likely means the young guys have developed a TON in a single offseason, but I think improvement will be much more gradual.

As for the article listing the prospect weaknesses--every player who is 17 or 18 has weaknesses. You could right the same type of thing about damn near every single top pick that has gone in the draft historically. What was written about Doncic is carbon copy about what was written about Curry except that Curry also had injury issues. Bamba is more well thought of than Gobert was when drafted.

I am excited about the top 5 of this draft, as are most of the people I look to for draft opinions, and I think there is nothing wrong with being excited for the top 5 here. There is a gap between them as it stands and the rest of the draft class. I think it is crucial to fall in that range.

I like our core overall, but we need another talent infusion to increase our odds of eventually rivaling a team like Philly or MN (our 2 probable rivals relative to age). Both of those teams should be in the playoffs this year since MN added Butler and Philly is in the east. That gives us a great chance to add a youngster or 2 (Miami pick) that closes the gap a bit. We can win next year when Booker and others are 20 and 21 respectively and we have an offseason to add a true star vet if possible.

Of course Bamba is...that's why he's considered a possibility for the #1 pick, whereas Gobert never was. That's not my point, nor the point of the article. In a 2013 Re-do Gobert would be Top-3, most likely. My point is, though, if these prospects are being compared to the likes of Gobert, Noel, etc., rather than AD, Marc Gasol, DMC, etc...how transcendent are they, exactly? Are any of them as 'wholly'-talented as KAT or Embiid when they came in?? I do not believe they are.

As far as us being a bottom 5 team, are you suggesting that Booker, Warren, Chriss, and Bender are 'maxed out', talent- and production-wise? Do you believe that Josh Jackson does not move the needle for us whatsoever? You say you like our core, but think we are a bottom 5 team, then go on to suggest that adding another 'youngster or two' will improve us, after saying that Minny added Butler so they should make it to the playoffs. You know we can only have 5 starters, right? As is, between Booker, Jackson, Warren, Chriss, and Bender, there is 5 right there, and not a single one plays PG. How is adding another 'youngster or two' going to do to help us?

I'm sorry, and I like our young guys as well, but our plan was never to march out 15 1st contract players and expect to win an NBA Championship. Some of them need to be packaged for 'win now' types, and if not, then our Draft Picks do. But keeping both? That only hurts us...it doesn't help us one iota.

Gobert is more valuable today than Gasol and maybe even DMC, so I don't see the 5th best prospect of this class getting compared to him as somehow weak. You could argue he's the most valuable center in the league right now. Also, there are smart people who believe Bamba might be able to shoot well in the NBA due to his touch and coordination.

Other things I've read about the top 5, just to even out the negatives with positives: Doncic, the projected consensus 4th pick, is considered the greatest Euro prospect ever. I've also read some claim he may be the best prospect since Lebron.

Bagley: Generational talent.

Ayton: 7 footer who can potentially impact both ends and shoot from the perimeter.

Porter: Multi-dimensional player who can be a franchise player.

All of them have questions. So did the top 5 of every draft. All had the same types of questions, and people often make similar comparisons that are fairly conservative due to those questions. That is not a reason to punt tanking when most consider this an absolutely loaded top 5. It's always a question of whether they develop. This draft is no different, but that is not a reason to not want a top 5 pick.

As for this gem: "As far as us being a bottom 5 team, are you suggesting that Booker, Warren, Chriss, and Bender are 'maxed out', talent- and production-wise? Do you believe that Josh Jackson does not move the needle for us whatsoever? You say you like our core, but think we are a bottom 5 team, then go on to suggest that adding another 'youngster or two' will improve us, after saying that Minny added Butler so they should make it to the playoffs. You know we can only have 5 starters, right? As is, between Booker, Jackson, Warren, Chriss, and Bender, there is 5 right there, and not a single one plays PG. How is adding another 'youngster or two' going to do to help us?"

I'll respond here. Obviously I am not suggesting that Booker, etc. are maxed out. I am suggesting that at ages 19, 19, 20, and 24 they are not prepared to beat out teams with a ton of vets in today's game. Booker is the best of the bunch and he graded out last year as average overall. I expect him to be better, as do I everybody else, but the reality is Chriss and Bender probably are both below average next year (Chriss going from below average to below average+, Bender going from real bad to below average), with Warren maybe crossing the threshold to good+. Vegas has us projected to be 5th worst. Vegas is usually right. Also, we are in a brutal conference, with the supporting guys being Tyson Chandler's corpse and a bunch of other young players who grade out as below average to bad and have not proven a thing as far as winning basketball games today. That may sound pessimistic, but in my opinion that is the reality of it and it is a necessary evil to rebuild via the draft. You go young in numbers, keep the guys who develop and hit on your draft picks, and then as they become true vets and are ready to win now, then you sign the remaining pieces when the time is right. Until then, you lose by playing young guys so that they develop and so that you know what you have to build around going forward.

As for MN and Phi, they are in the east. Ummm...

If we were in the east the playoffs might be possible, but we aren't. Since they are, they will likely, and are in fact both projected to, make the playoffs by Vegas. Life is different in the east, and life is different when you have the 1st overall picks. We have Booker, and we have some promising guys who may have been better picks than other teams made higher up, but we don't have Towns and Butler and Tibs. For those teams it makes sense to win now and get playoff experience because they have had multiple 1st overall picks and are in a conference where making the playoffs is feasible. We are not in either scenario, and most importantly, making the playoffs for this team is not feasible. The odds are damn near 0 unless you wanted to sell those youngsters for a bunch of stars, which would be the stupidest thing a team in our scenario could do.

As far as adding a couple more youngsters, well, we don't know who of our guys will actually pan out. The only one we can say with confidence is Booker. The rest are still open questions, and thus adding 2 more key youngsters is a big freaking deal. Our pick should be top 5 and the Miami pick in the mid to late teens. That potentially is adding a Doncic and a Dialo or Metu. Those are key cogs to the future of the team, and, if MN and Phi both make the playoffs, it helps us close the gap with them as far as elite talent goes. Multiple lottery picks are always key to any team's talent level, let alone a rebuilding one.

I am not advocating intentionally losing. I am advocating that our young guys are going to lose because the west is brutal and they aren't good enough yet. I have no problem with that and it says nothing of my opinion of our core because most aren't guys who were or are expected to contribute immediately. Chriss and Bender and DJJ are long-term projects.

Also, I don't expect us to contend with 15 1st contract players. I think our contention window will start when the ones who do pan out reach their 2nd contracts (RFA). Thus, I think we will lose this year a ton, lose a bit less next year (probably a mid lottery team by then), then maybe add a star or 2 in FA and be a bottom tier playoff team, then as the youngsters continue to improve in their mid 20s, we become a legitimate contender, and so long as we keep the key guys through their primes we can replace pieces in FA and via the draft to remain in contention for a long window. That is what I view as a realistic timeframe for contention. I don't think short circuiting this rebuild is the way to go, and I think winning a bunch of games this year is a pipe dream that would require an unusual amount of development from our youngsters this offseason across the board. It wouldn't just need to be Booker improving--it would need to be Warren, Booker, Ulis, Bender, Chriss, all improving to become above average to good with guys like Jackson, Peters, Reed being league average from day 1. The ROY winner is often not even league average, and in fact Brogdon was below average last year.

So, by your 'timeline' a rebuild should take 8 years? 'Shortcircuiting'? McD's been given 5 years. We have the assets NOW to bring in at least 2 star players.

And the last bit, is exactly my point, AtheJ. How the heck are we suppose to develop ALL those players? And we want to Tank? For more? All I am seeing around here is "well, Len was ok, but he's not shiny anymore, and we knew 'bigs' took longer to develop, and his development was stalled via injury and and favoritism and stupidity, so let's let him go". Next year, it will be the same with Warren. "Well, he's not a star, so, we need to leave room for our next stars we draft."

By all rights, we should be talking about Len-Chriss-Warren-Booker-Bledsoe / Sauce-Bender-Jackson-Reed-Ulis being our team RIGHT NOW, with Jones Jr. and Peters waiting in the wings...that's 12 players aged 28 and younger; 10 under 25...but hey, let's go get 2 more in 2018's draft.

Sign-n-trade Len to lucrative, yet short 'prove-it' deal for another team to help with salary matches (that's allowed, right?) something like 2yr/$30M...hell, Mozgov got $4/64, and Plumlee got $12M per year, Len is worth at least those...no? If not, $10-12M is reasonable.

Then, IMO, Booker is the ONLY player COMPLETELY off the table...others dependent upon who we get. If we go after Giannis? We take back Henson and give the Bucks the farm...Len, Jackson, Chriss or Bender, and both our picks, so on and so forth. We go after Anthony Davis, we give up all our PF types + salary macthing...just examples, but I'm pointing out that between picks and young players, we have ammo to get a star to put next to Booker, and attract more talent next summer, which, IMO, Kyrie is a no brainer. Doesn't cost us much, and gets us a star to help us recruit more stars.

[Big NBA Fan]

Regarding some of the previous posts in this thread about LeBron/Shaq/Marion, etc.

My thoughts:

- I normally subscribe to the belief that "no one player is bigger than the team" BUT if there's one guy who I would do whatever he wants, it is LeBron.

Yes, dealing with him appears to be high-maintenance, but he's not a bad guy either. Team-mates love him and he's never been in trouble with the law or anything like that. He's a good person who does great work in the community.

He's not a low-ego, media-shy superstar like Duncan, but you can't argue with the results.

- About the controversial Marion trade in 2008...

I totally understand the frustration among the fan-base and local media about trading Matrix away, but there a few things that need to be acknowledged about him and that situation.

- He wrongfully thought he was a super-max player, but as we saw in Miami, he was exposed badly in their system as a guy who can't create offense for himself or others. There's a reason they got rid of him so quickly and why he trashed them after he was traded to Toronto.

- Shaq outplayed him in 2009. (Who saw THAT coming?)

- Even big-spending Mark Cuban didn't give him anywhere near a max deal.

- Marion didn't want to be a Sun anymore and complained his way out of town

- If he had been more reasonable with his contract demands, I think the Suns would have kept him.

- He has nobody but himself to blame for being traded; the Suns didn't want to lose him for nothing.

Ultimately, it boils down to this: Could the pre-trade team have beaten the post-Gasol trade Lakers in 2008? If they thought they could, they wouldn't have taken that gamble.

I, for one, think they would have lost to those Lakers and the best team during the Nash-era was the 2010 team which DID NOT have Marion and gave the Lakers a real scare in the Conference Finals.

Gasol would have destroyed Amare in 2008 just like Duncan did in 2005.

I don't think the 2009 season was Shaq's fault, at all. He outplayed Matrix that year, did not hire Terry Porter, did not trade Diaw, and did not cause STAT to miss those last 30 games of the season.

Those are the reasons they underachieved that year, but Shaq did his part and made the All-Star and All-NBA 3rd team.

But because nobody wanted him there in the first place, he got all the blame.

Same thing happened to MDA in Los Angeles; people were pissed that he got the job over Phil, and people could never get over it. I think Mike had enough of all that criticism and that's why he quit.



-

[LukasBMW]

I think NOP will stay together and become the surprise team of 2017-2018. Actually, I wouldn't be shocked to see them in the top 4 out west.

Holiday is finally healthy and Cousins will take some pressure off AD making AD less likely to get hurt.

Their big 3 is pretty good if they stay healthy. The wildcard will be how well their supporting cast plays.

[TOO]

I think NOP will stay together and become the surprise team of 2017-2018. Actually, I wouldn't be shocked to see them in the top 4 out west.

Holiday is finally healthy and Cousins will take some pressure off AD making AD less likely to get hurt.

Their big 3 is pretty good if they stay healthy. The wildcard will be how well their supporting cast plays.

I'd be mega shocked if they made top 4. Most of that team just isnt any good. DMC/AD/Holiday are all career losers, to make that sort of jump would be unreal.

[suns91fan]

I think NOP will stay together and become the surprise team of 2017-2018. Actually, I wouldn't be shocked to see them in the top 4 out west.

Holiday is finally healthy and Cousins will take some pressure off AD making AD less likely to get hurt.

Their big 3 is pretty good if they stay healthy. The wildcard will be how well their supporting cast plays.

I'd be mega shocked if they made top 4. Most of that team just isnt any good. DMC/AD/Holiday are all career losers, to make that sort of jump would be unreal.

I would not include Davis in that group. His 14/15 season was insane. And then Gentry took over and started experimenting. He was not the same since. Not sure why he's still their head coach. I don't see them making the playoffs, unless Davis pulls an outstanding season from his sleeve (and i don't think he can do it with Gentry).

[thamadkant]

I think NOP will stay together and become the surprise team of 2017-2018. Actually, I wouldn't be shocked to see them in the top 4 out west.

Holiday is finally healthy and Cousins will take some pressure off AD making AD less likely to get hurt.

Their big 3 is pretty good if they stay healthy. The wildcard will be how well their supporting cast plays.

It depends on how Rondo fits. He would love Davis and Cousins.. But he needs catch and shoot players. Holiday is not it.... He is good but needs the ball in his hands. Also NOP has Gentry... Who is an average coach at best as Sun's fans will know.

They need a slow down half court system to maximise mismatches with the two towers and then clamp down defensively... But have the ability to score in transition when pressured that way.

[Puff]

That's a MUST read if you were a Suns fan then. Jack McCallum actually traveled with the team that whole season (2005-6) and you get behind the scenes stuff. It's almost like re-living that season but with a closer look.

Totally agree. It feels like you are right there. That was the suns team I grew up with so the book is even more special to me. I actually feel like re reading it. I think one of the most interesting lines of the book was this:

"Great game, Shawn," I say [McCallum]
He doesn't respond. Then, from under a towel, I hear: "We win, it's everybody but me; we lose, it's my fault. I don't understand that."

I loved Shawn Marion and always got this feeling too. God he was a beast. He could have the quietest 30/20. 30/20! That's insane! No coverage at all. I was crushed when he got traded, but I'm glad he eventually ended up winning a championship.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Marion is my favourite Suns player of all time along Barkley, Finley and Majerle... Nash and KJ up there too. But Marion was so under rated.

It is hard for me to choose between Amare, Marion and Nash. I loved all three of them and in MDA's offense with Nash at the controls they fit like a glove.

I have extremely high hopes for Josh Jackson. Some like to knock his jump shot. Well Marion's was not pretty either. However he made enough of them to keep people honest. It appears like Josh can take virtually anyone to the hoop and score. So if his jump shot is not on he has other ways to score. My concern, which could be incorrect, is his hands. He seems to be a very good ball handler and passer but I have yet to see him to the hoop and slam one down in traffic. It actually looked like he had trouble holding onto the ball when he did slam it down. That was summer league play and I could be mistaken. I see him as having a little Amare, a Little Marion and maybe even a little Scottie Pippen in him. I do not want to see him on another team. I am not sure who is going to be our best player when all is said and done. Will it be Booker or will it be Jackson?

I can actually see us be a surprise team this season, even if all we do is stand pat.

[Kerrsed]

Step 1: Continue to play youngsters/Lose games (Get a high top 4 draft pick).
Step 2: Draft one of Bagley/Porter/Ayton/Bamba
Step 3: Sign FA Cousins
Step 4: With Bledsoe/Cousins/Booker in tow (Plus a top draft pick) sign Lebron.
Step 5: ????????????
Step 6: Profit!

[darealjuice]

The most important thing for us to have a chance at Boogie in FA is for the Pelicans to be mediocre/miss the playoffs this year. If they surprise people this year and look like they can be contenders with a few tune ups then it's tough to see him leaving.

Warriors, Spurs, Rockets, and Thunder are sure things. Timberwolves definitely should make the playoffs after getting Jimmy Buckets, Denver should bel able to get in the playoffs after bringing in Paul Millsap, Portland should be competitive for a playoff spot again this year with a full season of Nurkic, Clippers can still sneak in after replacing CP3 with Bev, Teodosic, Lou Will, and Gallo if they stay relatively healthy. Not exactly sure what to expect from the Jazz after losing Hill and Hayward, Grizz always seem to hang around in the playoff race,

I think, in terms of top 3 players, the Pelicans can stack up with the majority of teams in the West, but that supporting cast is extremely mediocre. Boogie might be the best 3 point shooter on the team.

[AtheJ415]

Of course Bamba is...that's why he's considered a possibility for the #1 pick, whereas Gobert never was. That's not my point, nor the point of the article. In a 2013 Re-do Gobert would be Top-3, most likely. My point is, though, if these prospects are being compared to the likes of Gobert, Noel, etc., rather than AD, Marc Gasol, DMC, etc...how transcendent are they, exactly? Are any of them as 'wholly'-talented as KAT or Embiid when they came in?? I do not believe they are.

As far as us being a bottom 5 team, are you suggesting that Booker, Warren, Chriss, and Bender are 'maxed out', talent- and production-wise? Do you believe that Josh Jackson does not move the needle for us whatsoever? You say you like our core, but think we are a bottom 5 team, then go on to suggest that adding another 'youngster or two' will improve us, after saying that Minny added Butler so they should make it to the playoffs. You know we can only have 5 starters, right? As is, between Booker, Jackson, Warren, Chriss, and Bender, there is 5 right there, and not a single one plays PG. How is adding another 'youngster or two' going to do to help us?

I'm sorry, and I like our young guys as well, but our plan was never to march out 15 1st contract players and expect to win an NBA Championship. Some of them need to be packaged for 'win now' types, and if not, then our Draft Picks do. But keeping both? That only hurts us...it doesn't help us one iota.

Gobert is more valuable today than Gasol and maybe even DMC, so I don't see the 5th best prospect of this class getting compared to him as somehow weak. You could argue he's the most valuable center in the league right now. Also, there are smart people who believe Bamba might be able to shoot well in the NBA due to his touch and coordination.

Other things I've read about the top 5, just to even out the negatives with positives: Doncic, the projected consensus 4th pick, is considered the greatest Euro prospect ever. I've also read some claim he may be the best prospect since Lebron.

Bagley: Generational talent.

Ayton: 7 footer who can potentially impact both ends and shoot from the perimeter.

Porter: Multi-dimensional player who can be a franchise player.

All of them have questions. So did the top 5 of every draft. All had the same types of questions, and people often make similar comparisons that are fairly conservative due to those questions. That is not a reason to punt tanking when most consider this an absolutely loaded top 5. It's always a question of whether they develop. This draft is no different, but that is not a reason to not want a top 5 pick.

As for this gem: "As far as us being a bottom 5 team, are you suggesting that Booker, Warren, Chriss, and Bender are 'maxed out', talent- and production-wise? Do you believe that Josh Jackson does not move the needle for us whatsoever? You say you like our core, but think we are a bottom 5 team, then go on to suggest that adding another 'youngster or two' will improve us, after saying that Minny added Butler so they should make it to the playoffs. You know we can only have 5 starters, right? As is, between Booker, Jackson, Warren, Chriss, and Bender, there is 5 right there, and not a single one plays PG. How is adding another 'youngster or two' going to do to help us?"

I'll respond here. Obviously I am not suggesting that Booker, etc. are maxed out. I am suggesting that at ages 19, 19, 20, and 24 they are not prepared to beat out teams with a ton of vets in today's game. Booker is the best of the bunch and he graded out last year as average overall. I expect him to be better, as do I everybody else, but the reality is Chriss and Bender probably are both below average next year (Chriss going from below average to below average+, Bender going from real bad to below average), with Warren maybe crossing the threshold to good+. Vegas has us projected to be 5th worst. Vegas is usually right. Also, we are in a brutal conference, with the supporting guys being Tyson Chandler's corpse and a bunch of other young players who grade out as below average to bad and have not proven a thing as far as winning basketball games today. That may sound pessimistic, but in my opinion that is the reality of it and it is a necessary evil to rebuild via the draft. You go young in numbers, keep the guys who develop and hit on your draft picks, and then as they become true vets and are ready to win now, then you sign the remaining pieces when the time is right. Until then, you lose by playing young guys so that they develop and so that you know what you have to build around going forward.

As for MN and Phi, they are in the east. Ummm...

If we were in the east the playoffs might be possible, but we aren't. Since they are, they will likely, and are in fact both projected to, make the playoffs by Vegas. Life is different in the east, and life is different when you have the 1st overall picks. We have Booker, and we have some promising guys who may have been better picks than other teams made higher up, but we don't have Towns and Butler and Tibs. For those teams it makes sense to win now and get playoff experience because they have had multiple 1st overall picks and are in a conference where making the playoffs is feasible. We are not in either scenario, and most importantly, making the playoffs for this team is not feasible. The odds are damn near 0 unless you wanted to sell those youngsters for a bunch of stars, which would be the stupidest thing a team in our scenario could do.

As far as adding a couple more youngsters, well, we don't know who of our guys will actually pan out. The only one we can say with confidence is Booker. The rest are still open questions, and thus adding 2 more key youngsters is a big freaking deal. Our pick should be top 5 and the Miami pick in the mid to late teens. That potentially is adding a Doncic and a Dialo or Metu. Those are key cogs to the future of the team, and, if MN and Phi both make the playoffs, it helps us close the gap with them as far as elite talent goes. Multiple lottery picks are always key to any team's talent level, let alone a rebuilding one.

I am not advocating intentionally losing. I am advocating that our young guys are going to lose because the west is brutal and they aren't good enough yet. I have no problem with that and it says nothing of my opinion of our core because most aren't guys who were or are expected to contribute immediately. Chriss and Bender and DJJ are long-term projects.

Also, I don't expect us to contend with 15 1st contract players. I think our contention window will start when the ones who do pan out reach their 2nd contracts (RFA). Thus, I think we will lose this year a ton, lose a bit less next year (probably a mid lottery team by then), then maybe add a star or 2 in FA and be a bottom tier playoff team, then as the youngsters continue to improve in their mid 20s, we become a legitimate contender, and so long as we keep the key guys through their primes we can replace pieces in FA and via the draft to remain in contention for a long window. That is what I view as a realistic timeframe for contention. I don't think short circuiting this rebuild is the way to go, and I think winning a bunch of games this year is a pipe dream that would require an unusual amount of development from our youngsters this offseason across the board. It wouldn't just need to be Booker improving--it would need to be Warren, Booker, Ulis, Bender, Chriss, all improving to become above average to good with guys like Jackson, Peters, Reed being league average from day 1. The ROY winner is often not even league average, and in fact Brogdon was below average last year.

So, by your 'timeline' a rebuild should take 8 years? 'Shortcircuiting'? McD's been given 5 years. We have the assets NOW to bring in at least 2 star players.

And the last bit, is exactly my point, AtheJ. How the heck are we suppose to develop ALL those players? And we want to Tank? For more? All I am seeing around here is "well, Len was ok, but he's not shiny anymore, and we knew 'bigs' took longer to develop, and his development was stalled via injury and and favoritism and stupidity, so let's let him go". Next year, it will be the same with Warren. "Well, he's not a star, so, we need to leave room for our next stars we draft."

By all rights, we should be talking about Len-Chriss-Warren-Booker-Bledsoe / Sauce-Bender-Jackson-Reed-Ulis being our team RIGHT NOW, with Jones Jr. and Peters waiting in the wings...that's 12 players aged 28 and younger; 10 under 25...but hey, let's go get 2 more in 2018's draft.

Sign-n-trade Len to lucrative, yet short 'prove-it' deal for another team to help with salary matches (that's allowed, right?) something like 2yr/$30M...hell, Mozgov got $4/64, and Plumlee got $12M per year, Len is worth at least those...no? If not, $10-12M is reasonable.

Then, IMO, Booker is the ONLY player COMPLETELY off the table...others dependent upon who we get. If we go after Giannis? We take back Henson and give the Bucks the farm...Len, Jackson, Chriss or Bender, and both our picks, so on and so forth. We go after Anthony Davis, we give up all our PF types + salary macthing...just examples, but I'm pointing out that between picks and young players, we have ammo to get a star to put next to Booker, and attract more talent next summer, which, IMO, Kyrie is a no brainer. Doesn't cost us much, and gets us a star to help us recruit more stars.

When you walk into a situation where the roster is as awful as it was when McD got here, a rebuild can take 8 years. That is why you shouldn't sell the future to win now, because then you end up with a roster that requires that type of scenario. Also, yes, we need more. Philly tanked better than us and fully committed to it earlier, and their core is better than ours. So is MN's.

All of that is besides the point though. Our team simply isn't that good to do something logical other than tanking. It is in our best interest to play the young players. By doing so, we will lose games. That is the reality of it. On the plus side, by losing games, and since our main competition as far as young rosters in the leagues happens to be in the East, we will gain on them as far as talent collection and start to close that gap.

It's just the reality of the scenario. We drafted 18 year olds--not 24 year olds. It is going to take much longer to get to a point when they are ready to successfully contend. This year isn't that time, and if you disagree so be it, but I'm not alone in that thought. Vegas has us where they have us for a reason.

Also, I am totally fine with getting Kyrie at the right price. He's younger than Bled and a better fit for our core if we can convince him to stay. But I am not okay giving up more than Bled, Miami pick, and one of Chriss or Warren.

Finally, who are these 2 star players? Only one being mentioned is Kyrie, and Cleveland wants Bled and Jackson, which does not leave us with enough ammo to realistically get another star. Maybe Cousins if he is fire sold at the deadline but that is it. Also, 2 stars doesn't guarantee you anything in this West. I think every team 1-8 has 2 star players on it, so it's not as if we would suddenly rebuilt into a contender even in this optimistic scenario. We would be a borderline playoff team with no real shot of beating GS and no cap space for the foreseeable future. I'd rather continue with the tank 1 more season and try to sign these guys in FA so that we are actually building instead of trading the youngsters to get them today, thus just moving pieces around in a futile attempt to usurp the greatest team of all time.

[AtheJ415]

Step 1: Continue to play youngsters/Lose games (Get a high top 4 draft pick).
Step 2: Draft one of Bagley/Porter/Ayton/Bamba
Step 3: Sign FA Cousins
Step 4: With Bledsoe/Cousins/Booker in tow (Plus a top draft pick) sign Lebron.
Step 5: ????????????
Step 6: Profit!

Problem with this is that Lebron would have to take a deep pay cut. We can make enough room to get 1 max guy next year. The following year when Dudley and Chandler fall off the board, and depending on Warren's new salary and if we have kept Bled or Knight, we may have enough for a 2nd, but that's 2 years from now and Bron is an FA next season.

So unless Bron is okay taking a huge discount, this just isn't possible.

[Kerrsed]

Step 1: Continue to play youngsters/Lose games (Get a high top 4 draft pick).
Step 2: Draft one of Bagley/Porter/Ayton/Bamba
Step 3: Sign FA Cousins
Step 4: With Bledsoe/Cousins/Booker in tow (Plus a top draft pick) sign Lebron.
Step 5: ????????????
Step 6: Profit!

Problem with this is that Lebron would have to take a deep pay cut. We can make enough room to get 1 max guy next year. The following year when Dudley and Chandler fall off the board, and depending on Warren's new salary and if we have kept Bled or Knight, we may have enough for a 2nd, but that's 2 years from now and Bron is an FA next season.

So unless Bron is okay taking a huge discount, this just isn't possible.

Not if we were to do a S&T with New Orleans for Cousins. If they underperform, they might not value Cousins as much and would be willing to take on a youngster or two along with Chandler to put next to Davis (Which i think would be a great move for them). If we could do Chandler/Chriss/Warren for Cousins and have the Pelicans agree to it, but not put it through, we could then approach Lebron and let him know, "Hey, we have this trade lined up, and think wit you added we could give GS a run for its money". That way Lebron would sign for the max first, then we make the trade second.

Bledsoe/Booker/Jackson/Lebron/Cousins

Bench: Ulis/JonesJr./Dudley/Bender/Sauce/Top 5 rookie

Sure Lebron might only stay for a season or two, but i'd be willing to give up Chriss/Warren for those two years. It makes us a sure-fire contender, raises our profile, gets our youngsters real playoff experience, and they also get to see/play/and learn from one of the best players ever. To me, you can take damn near anybody and put them with Lebron and their play increases. Lebron helps put that drive in them. Where Nash's play would make others better with his assists, Lebron does it by instilling that killer instinct/mentality that he carries.

Also, if he were to leave after a few seasons, we would still have that top 5 rookie (Bagley or Ayton) to slide into that PF spot, after being given those 2 years to develop under King James.

[MilotheSlayer]

I'm on the Cousins bandwagon. I think that he would be the perfect compliment to our roster. He'd be the #1, Booker the #2, and Bledsoe the #3. We'd have scoring options on the wing and with Boogie I think our young PFs would have a lot of pressure down low taken off of them.

[lilfishi22]

I think NOP will stay together and become the surprise team of 2017-2018. Actually, I wouldn't be shocked to see them in the top 4 out west.

Holiday is finally healthy and Cousins will take some pressure off AD making AD less likely to get hurt.

Their big 3 is pretty good if they stay healthy. The wildcard will be how well their supporting cast plays.

I would be shocked. I don't think they are lacking in talent, they can't be with AD, Cousins and Holiday, but I just don't trust their coaching to be able to put it together. Gentry did a marvellous job emulating and adding some defense to the Suns squad when he was still our head coach and got us as far as the WCF in one of the seasons. But that was also with Steve Nash still at the helm making him look much better than he truly was. I'm not sure he's the high level coach capable of building around a twin tower lineup which in today's NBA, would appear to be archaic.

[AtheJ415]

I think NOP will stay together and become the surprise team of 2017-2018. Actually, I wouldn't be shocked to see them in the top 4 out west.

Holiday is finally healthy and Cousins will take some pressure off AD making AD less likely to get hurt.

Their big 3 is pretty good if they stay healthy. The wildcard will be how well their supporting cast plays.

I would be shocked. I don't think they are lacking in talent, they can't be with AD, Cousins and Holiday, but I just don't trust their coaching to be able to put it together. Gentry did a marvellous job emulating and adding some defense to the Suns squad when he was still our head coach and got us as far as the WCF in one of the seasons. But that was also with Steve Nash still at the helm making him look much better than he truly was. I'm not sure he's the high level coach capable of building around a twin tower lineup which in today's NBA, would appear to be archaic.

I feel the same way. They didn't really play great with DMC last season, and that was with DMC shooting lights out in spots he normally doesn't. I am not sure a twin tower lineup really works in today's NBA, but we will see. I have said repeatedly that I think Cousins has the most talent of any big. He just hasn't ever reached his full potential and I am not sure that is the team to do it. They still have a lot of time to build around Davis, but have not drafted well.

Gun to my head I think they are 8th or 9th in the West next season, setting up an interesting decision from DMC as an FA.

[lilfishi22]

I think NOP will stay together and become the surprise team of 2017-2018. Actually, I wouldn't be shocked to see them in the top 4 out west.

Holiday is finally healthy and Cousins will take some pressure off AD making AD less likely to get hurt.

Their big 3 is pretty good if they stay healthy. The wildcard will be how well their supporting cast plays.

I would be shocked. I don't think they are lacking in talent, they can't be with AD, Cousins and Holiday, but I just don't trust their coaching to be able to put it together. Gentry did a marvellous job emulating and adding some defense to the Suns squad when he was still our head coach and got us as far as the WCF in one of the seasons. But that was also with Steve Nash still at the helm making him look much better than he truly was. I'm not sure he's the high level coach capable of building around a twin tower lineup which in today's NBA, would appear to be archaic.

I feel the same way. They didn't really play great with DMC last season, and that was with DMC shooting lights out in spots he normally doesn't. I am not sure a twin tower lineup really works in today's NBA, but we will see. I have said repeatedly that I think Cousins has the most talent of any big. He just hasn't ever reached his full potential and I am not sure that is the team to do it. They still have a lot of time to build around Davis, but have not drafted well.

Gun to my head I think they are 8th or 9th in the West next season, setting up an interesting decision from DMC as an FA.

I don't have high expectations but I would like to see them do well especially with a twin tower line up in today's NBA. Certainly makes things interesting. And if there are two bigs with the right skill set who could make a twin tower line up work, it's AD and Cousins.

[thamadkant]

Step 1: Continue to play youngsters/Lose games (Get a high top 4 draft pick).
Step 2: Draft one of Bagley/Porter/Ayton/Bamba
Step 3: Sign FA Cousins
Step 4: With Bledsoe/Cousins/Booker in tow (Plus a top draft pick) sign Lebron.
Step 5: ????????????
Step 6: Profit!

Even after Step 3 that team would be amazing, although might have to trade one of Chriss or Bender down the line... if the Suns draft Ayton. Might have to package one of them to clear Knight out.

2018-2019 Lineup.

C: Cousins / Chandler / Ayton / Williams
PF: Chriss / Bender / Williams / Cousins
SF: Jackson / Warren / Bender
SG: Booker / Reed / Jackson
PG: Bledsoe / Ulis / FA


then

2019-2020 Lineup.

C: Ayton / Cousins / Williams
PF: Cousins / Chriss or Bender
SF: Jackson / Warren / Bender
SG: Booker / Reed
PG: Bledsoe / Ulis / FA