2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers

[ReasonablySober]

Spoiler:

I agree the writing this season is on the precipice of ruining one of the great stories of modern television.

Lol slow your roll man, this is about as much of an overreaction as you can have. It's still, easily, the best show on television. Nothing about GOT is close to being ruined. Sheesh.

Look, I'm just calling it like I see it. I'm just seeing more criticism of GOT than I've ever seen before from the interwebs and my world. It would be foolish not to have concerns the story is going to end in a way that leaves a lot of people really unsatisfied.

Will that mean the rest of the show is unfulfilled for everyone? Nah. But I look at a show like "Lost," which had a lot of similarities to GOT in terms of the complicated plot. "Lost" was resolved in a way that continues to attract mockery for a show that was as big as GOT was back then. Same with "Dexter." It's to the point that a lot of people wouldn't recommend it to people who haven't seen it.

I'm concerned GOT could end up the same way. That doesn't mean I won't watch it, obviously. But when it's done, my feeling on the experience will be materially impacted by its finish.

Maybe that isn't the case for you. And I respect that. Just offering my perspective.

For all the criticism it's gotten, people still hedge it with, "Some of the most exciting stuff we've seen on TV" or close. The AV Club was super critical...and it got a B grade.

[humanrefutation]

Lol slow your roll man, this is about as much of an overreaction as you can have. It's still, easily, the best show on television. Nothing about GOT is close to being ruined. Sheesh.

Look, I'm just calling it like I see it. I'm just seeing more criticism of GOT than I've ever seen before from the interwebs and my world. It would be foolish not to have concerns the story is going to end in a way that leaves a lot of people really unsatisfied.

Will that mean the rest of the show is unfulfilled for everyone? Nah. But I look at a show like "Lost," which had a lot of similarities to GOT in terms of the complicated plot. "Lost" was resolved in a way that continues to attract mockery for a show that was as big as GOT was back then. Same with "Dexter." It's to the point that a lot of people wouldn't recommend it to people who haven't seen it.

I'm concerned GOT could end up the same way. That doesn't mean I won't watch it, obviously. But when it's done, my feeling on the experience will be materially impacted by its finish.

Maybe that isn't the case for you. And I respect that. Just offering my perspective.

For all the criticism it's gotten, people still hedge it with, "Some of the most exciting stuff we've seen on TV" or close. The AV Club was super critical...and it got a B grade.

Oh, for sure. There's a reason my initial post acknowledged that there were some amazing things in the episode.

I guess it's whether there's a certain point where the plot heads in a problematic enough direction that it ends up overshadowing the positive aspects of the show. I'm not saying we're there yet, though.

[RRyder823]

Look, I'm just calling it like I see it. I'm just seeing more criticism of GOT than I've ever seen before from the interwebs and my world. It would be foolish not to have concerns the story is going to end in a way that leaves a lot of people really unsatisfied.

Will that mean the rest of the show is unfulfilled for everyone? Nah. But I look at a show like "Lost," which had a lot of similarities to GOT in terms of the complicated plot. "Lost" was resolved in a way that continues to attract mockery for a show that was as big as GOT was back then. Same with "Dexter." It's to the point that a lot of people wouldn't recommend it to people who haven't seen it.

I'm concerned GOT could end up the same way. That doesn't mean I won't watch it, obviously. But when it's done, my feeling on the experience will be materially impacted by its finish.

Maybe that isn't the case for you. And I respect that. Just offering my perspective.

For all the criticism it's gotten, people still hedge it with, "Some of the most exciting stuff we've seen on TV" or close. The AV Club was super critical...and it got a B grade.

Oh, for sure. There's a reason my initial post acknowledged that there were some amazing things in the episode.

I guess it's whether there's a certain point where the plot heads in a problematic enough direction that it ends up overshadowing the positive aspects of the show. I'm not saying we're there yet, though.

Important to note HBO doesn't have a great track record when it comes to them wrapping up there shows in the final season. Final seasons for True Blood, Boardwalk empire and Sapranos all kinda sucked.

Really the only show I remember them wrapping up good was Rome and that show only had two seasons.

Hopefully GoT bucks the trend but criticisms about the plot devices there using, and the fact it looks like they'll continue to use them, doesn't bode well.

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[El Duderino]

For all the criticism it's gotten, people still hedge it with, "Some of the most exciting stuff we've seen on TV" or close. The AV Club was super critical...and it got a B grade.

I wasn't all that bothered over this season as so many were and Spoils of War was great, but specifically regarding that episode last night, i thought it sucked asss and especially for a season finale. The show has been so good for these seven seasons and i just hope that last night was only a slip up by the writers and not a harbinger for what's coming in the final season.

[Turk Nowitzki]

For all the criticism it's gotten, people still hedge it with, "Some of the most exciting stuff we've seen on TV" or close. The AV Club was super critical...and it got a B grade.

I wasn't all that bothered over this season as so many were and Spoils of War was great, but specifically regarding that episode last night, i thought it sucked asss and especially for a season finale. The show has been so good for these seven seasons and i just hope that last night was only a slip up by the writers and not a harbinger for what's coming in the final season.

I have some good news for you sir.

That wasn't the season finale. There's one more episode.

[El Duderino]

Look, I'm just calling it like I see it. I'm just seeing more criticism of GOT than I've ever seen before from the interwebs and my world. It would be foolish not to have concerns the story is going to end in a way that leaves a lot of people really unsatisfied.

Will that mean the rest of the show is unfulfilled for everyone? Nah. But I look at a show like "Lost," which had a lot of similarities to GOT in terms of the complicated plot. "Lost" was resolved in a way that continues to attract mockery for a show that was as big as GOT was back then. Same with "Dexter." It's to the point that a lot of people wouldn't recommend it to people who haven't seen it.

I'm concerned GOT could end up the same way. That doesn't mean I won't watch it, obviously. But when it's done, my feeling on the experience will be materially impacted by its finish.

Maybe that isn't the case for you. And I respect that. Just offering my perspective.

Lost started going off the rails before the end and Dexter stopped being good half way through. By either season 4 or 5 of Dexter, i forget right now, i was already starting the debate with myself as to whether i should continue watching.

Had the GOT writers not wet the bed so badly on Sunday, i think it would have gone a long way in silencing critics of previous episodes. Instead, it just threw gasoline of the fire.

[El Duderino]

For all the criticism it's gotten, people still hedge it with, "Some of the most exciting stuff we've seen on TV" or close. The AV Club was super critical...and it got a B grade.

I wasn't all that bothered over this season as so many were and Spoils of War was great, but specifically regarding that episode last night, i thought it sucked asss and especially for a season finale. The show has been so good for these seven seasons and i just hope that last night was only a slip up by the writers and not a harbinger for what's coming in the final season.

I have some good news for you sir.

That wasn't the season finale. There's one more episode.

My bad, i brainlocked as i typed that. I heard it was supposed to be an hour and a half long.

Hopefully it's a big improvement from last night so that i end up looking very forward to the final season.

[hege53190]

GOT

Spoiler:

Sometimes you gotta put away the over analyzing hat and just enjoy something that is presented in an overwhelmingly entertaining way. Plot hole? Implausibility? For sure. But ladies and gents, we're watching a show about dragons and an undead ice zombie army in a fictional fantasy land with prophecies, curses, spells etc. Its fantasy entertainment and quite honestly the best fantasy story that's ever been told. With so few episodes left I'm focusing on enjoying the ride.

ETA: The top 5 GOT deaths that have most **** me up in order:

1) Hodor
2) Any of the direwolves
3) The giant from the battle of the bastards
4) Viserion
5) Ned

Jon Snow initially made the list but I quickly realized he wasn't dead dead. Oddly I wasn't really bothered much by the red wedding as Robb was super annoying in his bad decision making.

Spoiler:

Like someone said Ice Zombies, dragons, curses, spells and prophesies we were told existed in the first episode. On the other hand we were told travel and news takes a little while to happen. FFS Dany took 6 seasons to get to Westeros. For 2 books and 3000 pages George RR Martin didn't have anybody move at all. Granted they were **** books but seriously. He had 3000 pages and nobody **** moved except Sam and Tyrion and they did so very, very slowly.

And you are right. The first 3 books and 4 seasons were the best fantasy books/tv ever written or put on TV because the plot was character driven. Now the characters are plot driven.

We need to get an ice dragon. OK how do we do that? Well we could have Tyrion suggest that they go north and capture a wight.

Wouldn't that be the worst advice in the world from supposedly the smartest guy in Westeros? Yeah **** it.

How do we get Dany there? Well we could have them not take any horses and not have any escape plan. Then have Gendry run tens of miles in the freezing cold, then send a raven to Dany hundreds of miles away. Then have Dany come and save the day after they were under attack the minute Gendry left. Wouldn't that take weeks if not months when the protagonists have only hours if not minutes? Yeah **** it.

As for the worst deaths. Isn't the red wedding number 1, 2 or 3?

I mean Rob, Catelyn, and Talisa Stark all have to be top 5 along with the unborn heir to Winterfell.

My list is probably
1.) Rob, Catelyn, Talisa. It was just totally messed up. How do you separate them? I read the Books and Rob was a much better character. I was probably fond of him the most because of the books. Catelyn's performance and death was the best/most horrific. Talisa was the toughest to bear because she was pregnant and she was stabbed in the stomach.

2.) Hodor- You really felt for him after you figured out that he was tormented for so many years.

3.) Ned Stark- Just because you didn't expect the supposed hero to lose his head in the opening season with his daughters watching.

4.) Shireen Baratheon- messed up in so many ways.

5.) Oberyn Martel- You had to love this dude from the first moment he appeared in the books. He was fighting for a just cause and he was fighting for a favorite character. His Death scene was just messed up.

6.tied) Myrcella Lanister. Young and innocent died after sharing a great scene with Jaime. Granted the story arc was terrible and the sand snakes were completely stupid but this death had to get to you.

6. tied) Inn Keeper and his child. You don't see it but when the Hound comes back and sees the Inn keeper and his child dead after he was generous with the hound and the hound stole from him and left him to die. I don't know how you don't get the feels.

[MickeyDavis]

I've enjoyed this season but I agree, last night's episode was predictable and disappointing.

[Superfito]

GoT is admittedly in a very tough position. They piss off half the viewer base by fast plotting and taking a few liberties for the sake of fan service spectacle, or they do the opposite and piss off the other 50%. The execution has generally been ok enough to straddle the line, but it feels like something has got to give. A few scenes this Sunday hinted at something that would really piss off a lot of people, so maybe it was by design all along. So that when the thing happens it properly shocks us all like Ned back in season one.

[RRyder823]

GoT is admittedly in a very tough position. They piss off half the viewer base by fast plotting and taking a few liberties for the sake of fan service spectacle, or they do the opposite and piss off the other 50%. The execution has generally been ok enough to straddle the line, but it feels like something has got to give. A few scenes this Sunday hinted at something that would really piss off a lot of people, so maybe it was by design all along. So that when the thing happens it properly shocks us all like Ned back in season one.

Here's the thing though. GoT became the groundbreaking show that it has specifically because they DIDN'T take those liberties simply for fan service.

Hopefully it turns around for the final episode/next season

Spoiler:

I mean common. How obvious is it that Jon is going to knock up Dany after this past episode? But at least the "shippers" get their fan service

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[ReasonablySober]

GoT is admittedly in a very tough position. They piss off half the viewer base by fast plotting and taking a few liberties for the sake of fan service spectacle, or they do the opposite and piss off the other 50%. The execution has generally been ok enough to straddle the line, but it feels like something has got to give. A few scenes this Sunday hinted at something that would really piss off a lot of people, so maybe it was by design all along. So that when the thing happens it properly shocks us all like Ned back in season one.

Here's the thing though. GoT became the groundbreaking show that it has specifically because they DIDN'T take those liberties simply for fan service.

Hopefully it turns around for the final episode/next season

Spoiler:

I mean common. How obvious is it that Jon is going to knock up Dany after this past episode? But at least the "shippers" get their fan service

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using RealGM mobile app

The thing is I don't see people complaining about the fan service stuff, particularly when it was all 100% inevitable. What people are bitching about is pace, and I'm not sure there's a solution for that once budget and story intersected. You had to get all these people together in a very limited number of episodes, and once that happened **** was going to have to go down.

Like I said earlier, I much prefer this pace and things happening as opposed to an entire season with Arya in Bravos (or wherever that was) or traveling with the Hound. Sansa in the Vale, Theon in Winterfell, Ned in King's Landing, that crapfest in Dorne. They all had nice little moments but momentum wasn't there.

The chess pieces are in place, everyone is meeting, and it's time to stop talking about the picture of the dog.

[ReasonablySober]

Liked The Defenders. Not nearly as much as Jessica Jones, but it was better than the other three series. Still don't get the Iron Fist hate.

[blazza18]

Luke Cage was better until halfway through the season, but I enjoyed Iron Fist more. Neither are on the level of JJ and DD though.

The Defenders showed Luke and Danny would be better paired together instead of their own solo shows. Hope Netflix decided to do that.

[hege53190]

GoT is admittedly in a very tough position. They piss off half the viewer base by fast plotting and taking a few liberties for the sake of fan service spectacle, or they do the opposite and piss off the other 50%. The execution has generally been ok enough to straddle the line, but it feels like something has got to give. A few scenes this Sunday hinted at something that would really piss off a lot of people, so maybe it was by design all along. So that when the thing happens it properly shocks us all like Ned back in season one.

Here's the thing though. GoT became the groundbreaking show that it has specifically because they DIDN'T take those liberties simply for fan service.

Hopefully it turns around for the final episode/next season

Spoiler:

I mean common. How obvious is it that Jon is going to knock up Dany after this past episode? But at least the "shippers" get their fan service

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using RealGM mobile app

The thing is I don't see people complaining about the fan service stuff, particularly when it was all 100% inevitable. What people are bitching about is pace, and I'm not sure there's a solution for that once budget and story intersected. You had to get all these people together in a very limited number of episodes, and once that happened **** was going to have to go down.

Like I said earlier, I much prefer this pace and things happening as opposed to an entire season with Arya in Bravos (or wherever that was) or traveling with the Hound. Sansa in the Vale, Theon in Winterfell, Ned in King's Landing, that crapfest in Dorne. They all had nice little moments but momentum wasn't there.

The chess pieces are in place, everyone is meeting, and it's time to stop talking about the picture of the dog.

Spoiler:

The pacing is terrible but ultimately forgivable. It would be nice to have timelines that could exist in this world but whatever.

What pisses me off the most is the TV style decision making that this show avoided for a long time to further plot. They have turned one of the smartest people on the show into one of the worst advisors of all-time to further plot. The only way this makes even a little sense is if Tyrion is actively working against Dany.

Arya another great character has turned into a cartoon (to steal a phrase from the ringer). You would think the house of black and white would teach their assassins to not act like psychopaths and not keep their masks in a duffle bag on their bed but apparently Arya didn't get that lesson or common sense.

They send 7 of the main characters on a suicide mission with almost zero upside to further the plot. In a show that prides itself on realistic penalties (deaths) for bad decisions, nobody dies.

The show has jumped the rails. It still has Game of Thrones characters and the end is in sight so I will watch but this show has become run of the mill over night.

[Siefer]

Spoiler:

I agree with a lot of what you say here.

I'll say about Arya - the more I think about it, the more I am convinced the season is going to end with her taking out LF. There's some logic in her setting a trap for LF by using Sansa. She knows that LF is invested in Sansa, and she also knows Sansa tells LF too much. I also believe, quite strongly, that it is impossible that she'd be so dumb but to actually think that Sansa is somehow responsible for Ned's death, or is a traitor to the family, or is motivated to unseat Jon. She can't hate her sister THAT much.

Spoiler:

I'd prefer this to be the case, but perhaps due to the insane pace, the audience has little reason to think Arya is anything but a murderous idiot. We all thought she actually had a clever plan last season, and that arc just devolved into a train wreck.

I think the AV Club articulated the core problem well. The pace is disorienting, but not ultimately fatal. The snowballing plot contrivances though, are selling out the show's best characters, and dragging the narrative into the muck. The writing is caving into some of the worst tendencies of fantasy and action, where the established rules of the world stop applying as soon as they're inconvenient, the heroes become dumb in service of moving the plot from point A to point B, and conflict is resolved by last second interventions.

[ReginaldDwight]

Spoiler:

I agree with a lot of what you say here.

I'll say about Arya - the more I think about it, the more I am convinced the season is going to end with her taking out LF. There's some logic in her setting a trap for LF by using Sansa. She knows that LF is invested in Sansa, and she also knows Sansa tells LF too much. I also believe, quite strongly, that it is impossible that she'd be so dumb but to actually think that Sansa is somehow responsible for Ned's death, or is a traitor to the family, or is motivated to unseat Jon. She can't hate her sister THAT much.

Spoiler:

I'd prefer this to be the case, but perhaps due to the insane pace, the audience has little reason to think Arya is anything but a murderous idiot. We all thought she actually had a clever plan last season, and that arc just devolved into a train wreck.

I think the AV Club articulated the core problem well. The pace is disorienting, but not ultimately fatal. The snowballing plot contrivances though, are selling out the show's best characters, and dragging the narrative into the muck. The writing is caving into some of the worst tendencies of fantasy and action, where the established rules of the world stop applying as soon as they're inconvenient, the heroes become dumb in service of moving the plot from point A to point B, and conflict is resolved by last second interventions.

Spoiler:

I mean the show has literally resolved tons of conflicts all series by last second interventions, My girlfriend points it out every time someone is saved by someone else stabbing the person going from them in the back.

I think a good amount of the "outrage" is really more a sign of how beloved the show has been, and the anxiety that comes along with something thats been a big part of peoples lives for years now ending. Its why it is so hard to wrap up these big popular complex series well.

[Siefer]

Spoiler:

I mean the show has literally resolved tons of conflicts all series by last second interventions, My girlfriend points it out every time someone is saved by someone else stabbing the person going from them in the back.

Spoiler:

The battlefield save is one of the least egregious examples of this, I think. There's a bit of wiggle room with individual characters getting lucky in hectic combat situations. We've started to see entire set pieces resolved by last second saves, though. Consider the battle of the bastards, where Jon picked a hopeless fight, only to be bailed out at the last second by the Veil. And Sansa kept the fact that she'd contacted them secret...I guess?

[emunney]

Spoiler:

I agree with a lot of what you say here.

I'll say about Arya - the more I think about it, the more I am convinced the season is going to end with her taking out LF. There's some logic in her setting a trap for LF by using Sansa. She knows that LF is invested in Sansa, and she also knows Sansa tells LF too much. I also believe, quite strongly, that it is impossible that she'd be so dumb but to actually think that Sansa is somehow responsible for Ned's death, or is a traitor to the family, or is motivated to unseat Jon. She can't hate her sister THAT much.

Spoiler:

I'd prefer this to be the case, but perhaps due to the insane pace, the audience has little reason to think Arya is anything but a murderous idiot. We all thought she actually had a clever plan last season, and that arc just devolved into a train wreck.

I think the AV Club articulated the core problem well. The pace is disorienting, but not ultimately fatal. The snowballing plot contrivances though, are selling out the show's best characters, and dragging the narrative into the muck. The writing is caving into some of the worst tendencies of fantasy and action, where the established rules of the world stop applying as soon as they're inconvenient, the heroes become dumb in service of moving the plot from point A to point B, and conflict is resolved by last second interventions.

Spoiler:

I mean the show has literally resolved tons of conflicts all series by last second interventions, My girlfriend points it out every time someone is saved by someone else stabbing the person going from them in the back.

I think a good amount of the "outrage" is really more a sign of how beloved the show has been, and the anxiety that comes along with something thats been a big part of peoples lives for years now ending. Its why it is so hard to wrap up these big popular complex series well.

The last second saves are not a new thing. I started rewatching and there's more than one in the first season.

Spoiler:

Two big differences between something like this and something like Theon shooting a wildling with an arrow to save Bran in S1. One -- Theon was known to be in the area and looking for Bran. So as a viewer, while the heightened tension is a little contrived,
all of the pieces that came together to resolve it were recently established. We know that Rob and Theon are actively looking for Bran, it's just a matter of whether they find him *just in the nick of time*.

The other thing as as been mentioned is the scope and scale and just the VOLUME. There were two major deux ex machinas back to back in this episode -- Dany saves the group and Benjen saves Jon. The first one provoked so much dissonance that my reaction to the second one was basically, "Might as well."

If you were playing a drinking game where you took a shot every time I visibly cringed during this episode, you would be in purgatory right now, probably watching this episode on loop. The *only* thing I enjoyed about it was the Hound's one liners,
and even those were pretty ham-handedly inserted.

[emunney]

This is a totally random question from a couple seasons back, but when the Night King turns Craster's baby into a White Walker, does the baby then have to grow up? Is there like a toddler or young child White Walker asking them why they're not at Winterfell yet?