ATL - New Lottery Rules Move to Owner Vote - pg59

[Nowak008]

Lebron off, Kyrie on:
O/100: 106.7
D/100: 114.7

LeBron off, Kyrie off:
O/100: 106.5
D/100: 118.4

So with LeBron off, Kyrie has a net on/off of +3.9.

Cavs without LeBron overall:
O/100: 106.6
D/100: 116.6

To me, what this points to more than anything is that this Cavs team was built for LeBron.

Lebron on, Kyrie on:
O/100: 119.6
D/100: 108.7

LeBron on, Kyrie off:
O/100: 111.8
D/100: 106.5

Kyrie net on/off with LeBron on = +5.6

This is a good way of looking at it. There are a lot of "smart" NBA twitter (and ppl on this board) who love to question Kyrie's real value by citing his on/off numbers. Always thought those numbers were full of crap.

[DingleJerry]

Its pretty clear Ainge wanted an out for dealing with IT next offseason. He didn't want to overpay him but Celtics fans LOVE IT2s blue collar spirit. This certainly gives him an out. But contract wise, its not that different. IT makes 6M this year. Kyrie makes 38M over the next two years. IT isn't even ELIGIBLE to make 32M next year and Kyrie will be making more than him in Y3+. Now obviously Kyrie is several years younger (3). I think the injury is worse than people suspect. I had his exact injury and they only way to improve it is to shave down the bone where it impinges the labrum and clean up the labrum. And for NBA purposes its a 9 mo recovery because of the bone removal. If he is going to demand a long term deal he will HAVE to have the surgery at some point during that deal or will miss massive amounts of the season all the time and risk permanent loss of the labrum.

If you look at Kyrie on, LeBron off stats his personal lines are great but team %s drop off a cliff and team effectiveness drops to mid lotto quality. Its almost BKnight on steroids. I already think of Stevens as a god. If he can make Kyrie an effective playmaker I will be even more impressed.

I didn't know the injury to IT was anything long term until this trade happened and people started talking about it. If that's the case and Cavs either don't have IT this year or can't trade him for something useful at the deadline then it hurts the notion that this is a clear Cavs win in the trade. Furthermore, it makes it obvious why Celts did it. They figure IT won't be nearly as good this year or be out a lot, and show the injury to the league thus killing his trade value at the deadline. So, make the move now and get value out of him. Plus they know they don't want to hand him a big deal.

Also, if that's the case the Cavs should really be looking to move Love guard help. Something has to be out there that could work. Then embrace the small ball world and use Crowder/LBJ in whatever combo at 3/4 you prefer. Some way of getting Bledsoe/Chandler back could work for the win now aspects. However, it really seems Cavs are planning on a LBJ exit so probably don't want to take on contracts.

Anyone know if this trade is still in the 'pending physicals' stages or if it's completely done?

[brettski]

So we offered up Midds and Brogs and thats already leaked. Hope it doesn't cause issues im pur dressing room.

[MrPerfect1]

I think Ainge totally messed up BOS potential to be dominant for a long time.

Ainge basically turned 3 of the Best contracts in the league (IT, Crowder, Bradley) plus 3 BKN picks into Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, a Morris twin, and Kyrie. BOS once had a scary bright future, now it is a team with 3 fringe All Star caliber players (Kyrie, Hayward, Horford) and 2 young players neither of whom project as a future superstar (Tatum, Brown)

[SupremeHustle]

I really want to see Isaiah Thomas and Kay Felder on the floor together, even if it's just a preseason game.

[Nowak008]

Thought this was pretty interesting

Read on Twitter

With Bradley, IT, Smart all being FA next year it was clear that Boston was going to move on from one or two of those guys. Clearly Angie knows what ige is doing.

[Ron Swanson]

If the guy you picked 3rd overall isn't even going to be as good as Jae Crowder, then you whiffed pretty damn hard on that pick.

[FlagsFlyForever]

I really want to see Isaiah Thomas and Kay Felder on the floor together, even if it's just a preseason game.

One on top of the other's shoulders wearing an extra long jersey?

[ReasonablySober]

If the guy you picked 3rd overall isn't even going to be as good as Jae Crowder, then you whiffed pretty damn hard on that pick.

Crowder is awesome.

[HurricaneKid]

Lebron off, Kyrie on:
O/100: 106.7
D/100: 114.7

LeBron off, Kyrie off:
O/100: 106.5
D/100: 118.4

So with LeBron off, Kyrie has a net on/off of +3.9.

Cavs without LeBron overall:
O/100: 106.6
D/100: 116.6

To me, what this points to more than anything is that this Cavs team was built for LeBron.

Lebron on, Kyrie on:
O/100: 119.6
D/100: 108.7

LeBron on, Kyrie off:
O/100: 111.8
D/100: 106.5

Kyrie net on/off with LeBron on = +5.6

This is a good way of looking at it. There are a lot of "smart" NBA twitter (and ppl on this board) who love to question Kyrie's real value by citing his on/off numbers. Always thought those numbers were full of crap.

This is an absurd way of looking at it. Pick a team any team and I can show you they are BAD without their two best players. Warriors without KD AND Curry? -4/100 with a 97.9 ORTG. That doesn't mean a ton. The Cavs are built the same as Boston is, to have a player break down a defense and move the ball until an open three or a shot at the rim or a foul occurs. And the Cavs have better shooters than Boston. So if Kyrie can't lead a team CLOSE to a draw with LeBron out, and everyone around him gets MUCH worse, how is he going to BE the guy to break down the defense rather than play off a broken down defense?

[Ron Swanson]

If the guy you picked 3rd overall isn't even going to be as good as Jae Crowder, then you whiffed pretty damn hard on that pick.

Crowder is awesome.

Sure is. Don't see how that changes the fact that you should expect a better player with a Top-3 pick.

[emunney]

Lebron off, Kyrie on:
O/100: 106.7
D/100: 114.7

LeBron off, Kyrie off:
O/100: 106.5
D/100: 118.4

So with LeBron off, Kyrie has a net on/off of +3.9.

Cavs without LeBron overall:
O/100: 106.6
D/100: 116.6

To me, what this points to more than anything is that this Cavs team was built for LeBron.

Lebron on, Kyrie on:
O/100: 119.6
D/100: 108.7

LeBron on, Kyrie off:
O/100: 111.8
D/100: 106.5

Kyrie net on/off with LeBron on = +5.6

This is a good way of looking at it. There are a lot of "smart" NBA twitter (and ppl on this board) who love to question Kyrie's real value by citing his on/off numbers. Always thought those numbers were full of crap.

This is an absurd way of looking at it. Pick a team any team and I can show you they are BAD without their two best players. Warriors without KD AND Curry? -4/100 with a 97.9 ORTG. That doesn't mean a ton. The Cavs are built the same as Boston is, to have a player break down a defense and move the ball until an open three or a shot at the rim or a foul occurs. And the Cavs have better shooters than Boston. So if Kyrie can't lead a team CLOSE to a draw with LeBron out, and everyone around him gets MUCH worse, how is he going to BE the guy to break down the defense rather than play off a broken down defense?

It's absurd to control for whether LeBron is on the court or not? Ok.

[ReasonablySober]

If the guy you picked 3rd overall isn't even going to be as good as Jae Crowder, then you whiffed pretty damn hard on that pick.

Crowder is awesome.

Sure is. Don't see how that changes the fact that you should expect a better player with a Top-3 pick.

I'd bet that more often than not players taken #3 don't turn into top 30ish players.

[emunney]

Kyrie is a fringe all-star caliber player. You don't want to build a team around him. My point is that the "with LeBron off" stuff that's always casually thrown around in these conversations is MUCH more about how good LeBron is than it's about anything else.

[ReasonablySober]

This is a good way of looking at it. There are a lot of "smart" NBA twitter (and ppl on this board) who love to question Kyrie's real value by citing his on/off numbers. Always thought those numbers were full of crap.

This is an absurd way of looking at it. Pick a team any team and I can show you they are BAD without their two best players. Warriors without KD AND Curry? -4/100 with a 97.9 ORTG. That doesn't mean a ton. The Cavs are built the same as Boston is, to have a player break down a defense and move the ball until an open three or a shot at the rim or a foul occurs. And the Cavs have better shooters than Boston. So if Kyrie can't lead a team CLOSE to a draw with LeBron out, and everyone around him gets MUCH worse, how is he going to BE the guy to break down the defense rather than play off a broken down defense?

It's absurd to control for whether LeBron is on the court or not? Ok.

I'd be more interested in seeing the numbers from games LeBron didn't play.

[Nowak008]

Crowder is awesome.

Sure is. Don't see how that changes the fact that you should expect a better player with a Top-3 pick.

I'd bet that more often than not players taken #3 don't turn into top 30ish players.

So now you think Crowder is a top 30 player and Kyrie is top 40?

[ReasonablySober]

Sure is. Don't see how that changes the fact that you should expect a better player with a Top-3 pick.

I'd bet that more often than not players taken #3 don't turn into top 30ish players.

So now you think Crowder is a top 30 player and Kyrie is top 40?

Yea.

[Ron Swanson]

Crowder is awesome.

Sure is. Don't see how that changes the fact that you should expect a better player with a Top-3 pick.

I'd bet that more often than not players taken #3 don't turn into top 30ish players.

I'll go out on a limb and say that you're in the extreme minority on this one.

[Wooderson]

Lebron off, Kyrie on:

Spoiler:

O/100: 106.7
D/100: 114.7

LeBron off, Kyrie off:
O/100: 106.5
D/100: 118.4

So with LeBron off, Kyrie has a net on/off of +3.9.

Cavs without LeBron overall:
O/100: 106.6
D/100: 116.6

To me, what this points to more than anything is that this Cavs team was built for LeBron.

Lebron on, Kyrie on:
O/100: 119.6
D/100: 108.7

LeBron on, Kyrie off:
O/100: 111.8
D/100: 106.5

Kyrie net on/off with LeBron on = +5.6

The positive on/off there comes entirely from defense so should that credit go to Kyrie? Cavs D is a complete disaster when LeBron's off the floor and just dips even further when Kyrie's off too. Not that surprising since Deron/Felder each played ~ half those Kyrie/LeBron-less minutes.

I think the more interesting thing is the offensive drop with LeBron on, Kyrie off. He's clearly providing value on that side of the ball and I do think he could be a more complete offensive player under Stevens.

[HurricaneKid]

This is a good way of looking at it. There are a lot of "smart" NBA twitter (and ppl on this board) who love to question Kyrie's real value by citing his on/off numbers. Always thought those numbers were full of crap.

This is an absurd way of looking at it. Pick a team any team and I can show you they are BAD without their two best players. Warriors without KD AND Curry? -4/100 with a 97.9 ORTG. That doesn't mean a ton. The Cavs are built the same as Boston is, to have a player break down a defense and move the ball until an open three or a shot at the rim or a foul occurs. And the Cavs have better shooters than Boston. So if Kyrie can't lead a team CLOSE to a draw with LeBron out, and everyone around him gets MUCH worse, how is he going to BE the guy to break down the defense rather than play off a broken down defense?

It's absurd to control for whether LeBron is on the court or not? Ok.

The question is effectively can he lead a team. LeBron's stats shouldn't impact that decision much.

KLove for instance, had a TS% of .573. With LeBron on Love's TS% was 58.8. Without LeBron but WITH Kyrie, Love's TS% drops to 51.4. In fact, without Kyrie his TS% is 60.4. The more Kyrie the lower KLove's effectiveness. You would expect his raw stats to go down but his efficiency?

If the Cavs have nearly the supporting cast that people suggest, Kyrie AND Love should be a formidable team, especially when they are only asked to play against 2nd teamers.

Kyrie/LeBron off is effectively including Kay Felder/McRae as the playmaker. Its a weird set to consider a base.