ATL - New Lottery Rules Move to Owner Vote - pg59

[Rainwater]

I think Ainge totally messed up BOS potential to be dominant for a long time.

Ainge basically turned 3 of the Best contracts in the league (IT, Crowder, Bradley) plus 3 BKN picks into Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, a Morris twin, and Kyrie. BOS once had a scary bright future, now it is a team with 3 fringe All Star caliber players (Kyrie, Hayward, Horford) and 2 young players neither of whom project as a future superstar (Tatum, Brown)

Last I checked Kyrie and Hayward were not fringe All-Stars but established All-Stars; the latter, in fact, was/is a 4 time All-Star. And although I believe that Boston lost this trade, they still have a bright future. After the Cleveland series there was the question of how far IT can lead Boston and if they should rebuild/retool hence their hesitance to offer IT the supermax. Although Kyrie has never lead a team to an eastern conf. final, his and IT's stats are pretty similar (with many still believing that Kryie might be better) and Irving is two/ three years younger. With IT gone for a youth movement and a log jam at the wing positions with the addition of Hayward, what would be the point of keeping the two vets of Crowder and Bradley? You might as well clear some time for Tatum and Brown and see what they can provide. And they still have the Lakers pick and I believe ( although not sure) the Sac pick too. Will the Celtics be title contenders next year? No. But do they still have a bright future? yes.

For people to say they would turn down a Middleton, Brogdan, and FRP trade for Irving they must really have high expectations of Middleton, lol. I really don't believe he becomes the player you guys want him to be. Even with the knee injury I think the organization expects Parker to be that guy. Anyway, I would have definitely loved a line up of Irving, Giannis, Snell, Parker, and Thon.

[paulpressey25]

I think the point is right that most often the player at #3 doesn't end up as good as Crowder.

Don't think the analysis is quite this simple.

a) The guy you could get with #3 that hits will be miles ahead of a guy like Crowder. i.e. Harden, Melo, Embiid, Pau, Horford, etc.
You absolutely do not have a 30-50% shot at a guys like that further down in the draft or via FA. So saying you have a 50-50 shot at a player as good as Crowder with pick #3 is somewhat misleading.

b) Guys like Crowder generally don't have long shelf lives as players with strong pedigrees drafted higher. This point is a subset of point "a" above but usually guys like this give you 3-5 seasons before the body fails or the "effort" ju-ju runs out and the decline starts. There usually is some great skill the higher drafted guys have and that skill is usually so great it gives them a longer career at a higher level of performance. TL:DR - I'm not re-signing Crowder to $15mm a year when his deal is up.

[Profound23]

Watch on YouTube

Either way Boston is going to be fun to watch.

Two great offensive players Hayward/Irving, two great defensive players Brown/Smart and one who does a little of everything in Horford.

If Jaylen Brown somehow makes a jump offensively or Tatum comes out the gates on fire, I can see them going to the Finals.

[Rainwater]

I'd bet that more often than not players taken #3 don't turn into top 30ish players.

I'll go out on a limb and say that you're in the extreme minority on this one.

Purely for S&G

2017 Jason Tatum Duke Boston TBD
2016 Jaylen Brown Cal Boston TBD
2015 Jahlil Okafor Duke Philly NO
2014 Joel Embiid Kansas Philly YES
2013 Otto Porter Georgetown Washington YES
2012 Bradley Beal Florida Washington PUSH
2011 Enes Kanter Kentucky Utah NO
2010 Derrick Favors Georgia Tech New Jersey NO
2009 James Harden Arizona State Oklahoma YES
2008 O.J. Mayo USC Minnesota NO
2007 Al Horford Florida Atlanta YES
2006 Adam Morrison Gonzaga Portland NO
2005 Deron Williams Illinois Jr. Utah YES
2004 Ben Gordon UConn Jr. Chicago PUSH
2003 Carmelo Anthony Syracuse Fr. Denver YES
2002 Mike Dunleavy Duke Jr. Golden State NO
2001 Pau Gasol Spain Memphis YES
2000 Darius Miles HSSr. LA Clippers NO
1999 Baron Davis UCLA So. NO Hornets YES
1998 Raef LaFrentz Kansas Denver NO
1997 Chauncey Billups Colorado Boston YES
1996 Shareef Abdur-Rahim California Vancouver YES
1995 Jerry Stackhouse North Carolina Philadelphia YES
1994 Grant Hill Duke Detroit YES
1993 Anfernee Hardaway MemphisState Golden State YES
1992 Christian Laettner Duke Minnesota NO
1991 Billy Owens Syracuse Sacramento NO
1990 Chris Jackson Louisiana State Denver NO
1989 Sean Elliott Arizona San Antonio YES
1988 Charles Smith Pittsburgh Philadelphia NO
1987 Dennis Hopson Ohio State New Jersey NO
1986 Chris Washburn North Carolina State Golden State NO
1985 Benoit Benjamin Creighton LA Clippers NO
1984 Michael Jordan North Carolina Chicago YES (caveat: had a Hitler mustache)
1983 Rodney McCray Louisville Houston NO
1982 Dominique Wilkins Georgia Utah YES
1981 Buck Williams Maryland New Jersey YES
1980 Kevin McHale Minnesota Boston YES

TBD 2
PUSH 2
YES 17
YES [albeit with a Hitler mustache] 1
NO 16

Not as far fetched as seems for likelihood of #3 = not reaching top 30 for one season

Completely agree with this. Honestly, I would have given a yes or a push to Miles while in Portland, Dunleavy, and Lafrentz in Denver/Dallas and Christian Laettner had a pretty decent career as well.

[AussieBuck]

Lol Profound doing his LeBron obsession thing. Thinks Kyrie is a superstar but wants to set up a narrative of LeBron failure if he doesn't win without him lololol

[AussieBuck]

Continuing from the other thread, I think Boston feels pretty comfortable they can re-sign Kyrie. That seemed evident from a couple reports I read. Makes overpaying a bit easier to stomach.

Overpaying in a trade for the right to get to overpay in salary.

[Bucksfan28]

Crowder is not a top 30 player but I'm not surprised to see that claim made here.

[Fotis St]

Thank God the cavs didn't accept our trade proposal.
Irving/snell/giannis/teletovic/maker.....this would have been our lineup in the new season until jabari returned?
We would have been worse than 2017.
Brogdon can play both guard positions. Khris can play both SG and SF if needed(not against top SFs ofc).
Kyrie would have given us the PG we seek but the blow on our depth would have been severe.

The ship has sailed but this was not going to be our lineup ...

With no Shumpert in the deal, I believe Delly would start as our SG and Snell would be moved to SF :

Irving/Delly/Snell/Giannis/Thon

Kidd then would need to experiment in lineups where :
1) SG Snell / SF DJ Wilson
2) SG Sterling/Vaughn / SF Snell

With Shumpert in the deal it would be easier, Irving/Snell/Shumpert/Giannis/Thon

So Teletovic would not start in any case in my opinion.

Now that Kyrie is off target ... is there any potential all star PG under 25 available that we can get to pair with Giannis ?
Can't hear you... thought so...

[drew881]

Watch on YouTube

Either way Boston is going to be fun to watch.

Two great offensive players Hayward/Irving, two great defensive players Brown/Smart and one who does a little of everything in Horford.

If Jaylen Brown somehow makes a jump offensively or Tatum comes out the gates on fire, I can see them going to the Finals.

Nice Delly appearance @ 1:40

[Profound23]

Lol Profound doing his LeBron obsession thing. Thinks Kyrie is a superstar but wants to set up a narrative of LeBron failure if he doesn't win without him lololol

Actually if Lebron can make it to the Finals and win at least one game like he did this year, I will give him props with that team.

However, those who are telling me Kyrie sucks and Cleveland won this trade can't make excuses for him if he loses to the Celtics in the East.

[ReasonablySober]

Crowder is not a top 30 player but I'm not surprised to see that claim made here.

His impact was as one, though. I don't even think that's debatable.

[ReasonablySober]

Lol Profound doing his LeBron obsession thing. Thinks Kyrie is a superstar but wants to set up a narrative of LeBron failure if he doesn't win without him lololol

Actually if Lebron can make it to the Finals and win at least one game like he did this year, I will give him props with that team.

However, those who are telling me Kyrie sucks and Cleveland won this trade can't make excuses for him if he loses to the Celtics in the East.

I don't even think the Celtics make the ECF.

[MrPerfect1]

I think Ainge totally messed up BOS potential to be dominant for a long time.

Ainge basically turned 3 of the Best contracts in the league (IT, Crowder, Bradley) plus 3 BKN picks into Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, a Morris twin, and Kyrie. BOS once had a scary bright future, now it is a team with 3 fringe All Star caliber players (Kyrie, Hayward, Horford) and 2 young players neither of whom project as a future superstar (Tatum, Brown)

Last I checked Kyrie and Hayward were not fringe All-Stars but established All-Stars; the latter, in fact, was/is a 4 time All-Star. And although I believe that Boston lost this trade, they still have a bright future. After the Cleveland series there was the question of how far IT can lead Boston and if they should rebuild/retool hence their hesitance to offer IT the supermax. Although Kyrie has never lead a team to an eastern conf. final, his and IT's stats are pretty similar (with many still believing that Kryie might be better) and Irving is two/ three years younger. With IT gone for a youth movement and a log jam at the wing positions with the addition of Hayward, what would be the point of keeping the two vets of Crowder and Bradley? You might as well clear some time for Tatum and Brown and see what they can provide. And they still have the Lakers pick and I believe ( although not sure) the Sac pick too. Will the Celtics be title contenders next year? No. But do they still have a bright future? yes.

For people to say they would turn down a Middleton, Brogdan, and FRP trade for Irving they must really have high expectations of Middleton, lol. I really don't believe he becomes the player you guys want him to be. Even with the knee injury I think the organization expects Parker to be that guy. Anyway, I would have definitely loved a line up of Irving, Giannis, Snell, Parker, and Thon.

Kyrie and Hayward are both fringe All Stars. There is a good chance Kyrie has 0 All Star Appearances if he played in the West instead of the East. Fringe All Stars are players who either are borderline All Stars each year like Lillard/Cousins and those who likely only make All Star Games because they play in the East. If you were to swap where Kyrie and Lillard were drafted, most likely Lillard is a 4 Time All Star and Kyrie has 0 or 1.

I never proposed keeping Bradley, I am saying Ainge waited way too long to trade him and did not get very much. I am very happy that the Bucks did not have that hypothetical trade go through. I am not high on Middleton but rather consider Kyrie a ball dominant, Iso chucker who does not make anyone around him better and is weak defensively. He also has had some injuries in the past, a very shaky track record when not on the floor with Lebron, and a questionable attitude.

Bos has a nice future but they have slid from ahead of MIL and PHI in regards to future potential to below both since BOS is the only 1 of those 3 teams without a Superstar potential player.

[blazza18]

I think Boston still have a chance to go to the ECF because they've quite easily got the best coach of all the playoff contenders in the east.

[pifhluk23]

All the posters who said Middleton, Parker and a 1st was too much are salty as f.

[chonestown]

All the posters who said Middleton, Parker and a 1st was too much are salty as f.

Pee
Pee
Geez

[raferfenix]

I think Ainge made a panic trade after whiffing on Cousins and Butler and George.

Kyrie could be on a Stephon Marbury kind of trajectory. I'm happy our team is not reliant on him as our best player.

That said, it is possible Ainge leverages Irving's star power to pick up another superstar with their remaining assets, which tilts the calculus. Major X-factor there.

[Nowak008]

Crowder is not a top 30 player but I'm not surprised to see that claim made here.

His impact was as one, though. I don't even think that's debatable.

Well when we do that draft the league game - I better see you picking Crowder in the first round. My guess is there is no chance he goes first round unless you take him.

Also. Marcus Smart is a much better than Crowder.

[ReasonablySober]

Crowder is not a top 30 player but I'm not surprised to see that claim made here.

His impact was as one, though. I don't even think that's debatable.

Well when we do that draft the league game - I better see you picking Crowder in the first round. My guess is there is no chance he goes first round unless you take him.

Also. Marcus Smart is a much better than Crowder.

One's a really good defender and is at least solid at everything offensively, and really good spotting up. The other can only play on one side of the ball.

[Nowak008]

His impact was as one, though. I don't even think that's debatable.

Well when we do that draft the league game - I better see you picking Crowder in the first round. My guess is there is no chance he goes first round unless you take him.

Also. Marcus Smart is a much better than Crowder.

One's a really good defender and is at least solid at everything offensively, and really good spotting up. The other can only play on one side of the ball.

Crowder is just a guy. His value comes from being a starting caliber player that is drastically underpaid. Crowder wasn't even a top 4 on the Celtics last year, I don't care what Kevin Pelton says.