Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 1

[Bogyo]

I understand Ainge completely. As much as I like IT playing, he is just too limited phisicaly to be effective on D in any way shape or form. Furthermore he will not keep this up for more than 1-2 years (becouse of the toll he takes on that tiny body) on offense either. Starting with his hip injury right now - which he did not get (refused?) surgery on, so he might not be ready for the season.
(Sidenote: LeBron will be reeeeal effing happy about this - his new running mate missing training camp, etc...)

If you max out a guy like him next offseason it will bite you in the butt so hard... likely lose your job becouse of it sooner or later.
While the guy balled his heart out, it's just an unfortunate situation for him (and a bit for Boston as well, as this makes them look bad, and not loyal).

Ainge even said somewhere after the season that they did not really achieve anyhting in this season b/c of the conference they are in, and the fact that 1-2 bounces go the other way and they could be out of the playoffs in the 2nd round against Washington (or Toronto, or whichever 2nd tier Eastern team) this year or next yr. And we haven't even talked about the Warriors. I have to agree with him.

That's life. It might not be fair, but it is what it is. Midget lead teams dont win it all in the NBA. Not with AI, nooo way with IT.

Now if I'm Ainge, I'm all over trading Horford (with any picks, players that might be needed) to get a difference making bigguy - like Boogie. That's a legit big3, round out the rest with whatever is left of Smart/Rozier/Semi/Brown/Tatum/Morris, a cpl 2nd rounders (or what you have left in Allen/Bird/Baynes/Larkin/Yabusele), get a cpl veteran minimum guys, let Stevens do his magic and take the east easily in the next 3-4 years - with a bit of injury luck they might win one chip out of 3-4 tries.

[Kjdills13]

Ainge hate is funny,
He took a team with oil pierce and in one offseason made trades to create the big 3 and go on to win a title

They got old and basically ALL RETIRED or aren't stars anymore

So he hires a coach from, Butler, then makes trades and draft picks and 3 years later his team is the #1 sead in the east.

Ainge traded- Marcus Thornton , and the 31 pick in draft
For
ISiah Thomas
When he then flipped for kyrie Irving a 24 year old all star.

I think people under Estemate how impressive that is.

AINGE is a top 5 GM in this league.

[bwgood77]

What the Celtics could have gotten in other trades is all speculation. They may have no interest in Boogie for all of the reasons many mention. They may have not wanted to give up a bunch of assets to get 1 year of George.

They may have been able to get Butler but we don't know for sure what went on there.

I wouldn't doubt Ainge, given his track record with trades. He may have given up too much for Kyrie but maybe doesn't get him at all otherwise. Maybe he is worried about IT's hip or maybe he didn't want to max him out anyway. I wouldn't want to.

He's never had high draft picks until he took Smart, Brown and Tatum. What ultimately comes of these guys remains to be seen. Smart is a defensive hound who is a nice guy to have next to Kyrie. Smart is not a guy to judge by PER, given his strengths and PER favoring offense and bigs who get rebounds and blocks. Smart and Brown will likely be the nice defensive guys you want around Kyrie, Hayward and Tatum.

I've always thought their core was overrated, but Stevens always seems to squeeze the most out of them to outperform my expectations. They are still likely to lose to Cleveland but who knows? And they still added a couple of high picks the last couple of years...wings during a time where positionless basketball is becoming more common.

I think it's pretty reliable "speculation" though. You can look at who got dealt for what and pretty reasonably assume whether Boston could or should have beaten that deal. And these refusals to include any picks or certain players have been reported widely by trustworthy reporters. I believe it was Woj who said they didn't even make an offer for George because they didn't believe Indiana when they said they were going to trade him that day. It has only been after those reports that local Boston guys have tried to throw out these crazy offers in what seems to be a defensive maneuver (like that Indy didn't give them a chance to make an offer, or that they offered 7 first rounders for Justise Winslow, neither of which really seems believable).

Also, Ainge's track record with trades is to only do trades that are heavily lopsided, and he has a strong reputation for that, so the reports we saw regarding George and Butler are very believable given that. I am someone who actually likes what Chicago got for Butler and doesn't see it as quite the lopsided deal others do, but I still believe they could have gotten him if they included one of their elite picks and one of their mediocre picks because teams generally would prefer to draft their own guys. For instance, Fultz alone gets either in my opinion, but they traded that for essentially Tatum and whatever pick comes from that LA/Philly scenario.
I would rather Butler locked into a multi-year deal. Regardless, the real miss imo is George. He isn't a guarantee to stay but neither is Kyrie, and I don't think George would be leaving Boston where he would have been the 1 seed in all likelihood to rebuild in LA given how much he values winning. I think the Nets pick plus Crowder alone probably makes that trade better than OKC's, and if you had to include even Smart or Brown I still consider that a win. George is another level from Kyrie and I don't personally think Brown is going to become much more than a defensive role player.

It's certainly possible that Smart and Brown are guys who fit well on the team, and I think Stevens will make them effective no matter what. I think Stevens actually will get a lot of Kyrie and he may improve a decent amount under him, but I will say Smart is not a guy I would be excited to be given for nothing on the Suns. His numbers are not good, and he is about to hit FA. He isn't awful, but when that is the best pick you can tout for a decade you are doing a bad job, even if dealing with relatively later picks. His D is good but not enough to make up for his offense in a way that I would call him an impact player or somebody to build upon for the future.

Looking at their group, I think Tatum has the best chance of becoming a great player of their picks, but I wouldn't let him hold me from a trade for George or Butler in their scenario, where they are contending now and get both player's bird rights, with both young enough to keep their window open for a long time. I would let Fultz prevent me from such a trade, but that is a different discussion at this point.

There is zero chance I would give up really good assets for George when his agent came out and said anyone who traded for him would be getting him with the understanding that he would be a rental, especially with all the other rumblings that people knew he was going to LA.

I wouldn't be really excited to have Smart on the Suns mainly because we desperately need shooting. He'd need to improve in that area. But on a team like that with elite efficient scorers, he fits pretty well.

[Sreister]

Ainge hate is funny,
He took a team with oil pierce and in one offseason made trades to create the big 3 and go on to win a title

They got old and basically ALL RETIRED or aren't stars anymore

So he hires a coach from, Butler, then makes trades and draft picks and 3 years later his team is the #1 sead in the east.

Ainge traded- Marcus Thornton , and the 31 pick in draft
For
ISiah Thomas
When he then flipped for kyrie Irving a 24 year old all star.

I think people under Estemate how impressive that is.

AINGE is a top 5 GM in this league.

The problem with your argument is I don't think anyone is actually saying he ISN'T a top GM in the league. I can criticize MJ for decisions he's made, but he's still the GOAT. I think that's what is going on here. He appears he lost the trade, but even then time will tell. For all the reasons you pointed out, Ainge is doing a great job and most people agree, but still hate on his last move.

[Book1Nation]

Should we swing for Noel?

I wouldn't. His knee scares me, and we already have 3 C's since I don't think Len is going to get a big offer from anybody. Solid player but I think we'll solve the center position in the next draft, either by drafting a center in Ayton or Bamba, or else drafting a PF like Bagley and moving Chriss/Bender over to the 5.

Also, I don't think there's any way Dallas realistically lets him go. Dallas knows the market has blown up for big guys this offseason and are playing it correctly and waiting to see if he gets other offers. Whatever one he gets is likely going to be well beneath what it would take to lose him. He is pretty important for that team, and I think it would take something like 13 or 14 mil a year for them to walk away, and even then they may take that.

Dallas would love to match any deal for 13 or 14 million.

They've offered him a 3/4 year deal at $17 million per and Noel has declined that as he wants a max.

Which is also another way of me saying no, I don't want him at all.

[jredsaz]

Should we swing for Noel?

I wouldn't. His knee scares me, and we already have 3 C's since I don't think Len is going to get a big offer from anybody. Solid player but I think we'll solve the center position in the next draft, either by drafting a center in Ayton or Bamba, or else drafting a PF like Bagley and moving Chriss/Bender over to the 5.

Also, I don't think there's any way Dallas realistically lets him go. Dallas knows the market has blown up for big guys this offseason and are playing it correctly and waiting to see if he gets other offers. Whatever one he gets is likely going to be well beneath what it would take to lose him. He is pretty important for that team, and I think it would take something like 13 or 14 mil a year for them to walk away, and even then they may take that.

Dallas would love to match any deal for 13 or 14 million.

They've offered him a 3/4 year deal at $17 million per and Noel has declined that as he wants a max.

Which is also another way of me saying no, I don't want him at all.

At this point maximizing next year's cap space and playing youth is the path forward. Adding a guy like Noel at $20 mil a year is much less valuable than the cap space he would take up. There is not a lot of cap flexibility out there next off-season. Suns will have room and be one of the more desirable destinations.

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[bwgood77]

I wouldn't. His knee scares me, and we already have 3 C's since I don't think Len is going to get a big offer from anybody. Solid player but I think we'll solve the center position in the next draft, either by drafting a center in Ayton or Bamba, or else drafting a PF like Bagley and moving Chriss/Bender over to the 5.

Also, I don't think there's any way Dallas realistically lets him go. Dallas knows the market has blown up for big guys this offseason and are playing it correctly and waiting to see if he gets other offers. Whatever one he gets is likely going to be well beneath what it would take to lose him. He is pretty important for that team, and I think it would take something like 13 or 14 mil a year for them to walk away, and even then they may take that.

Dallas would love to match any deal for 13 or 14 million.

They've offered him a 3/4 year deal at $17 million per and Noel has declined that as he wants a max.

Which is also another way of me saying no, I don't want him at all.

At this point maximizing next year's cap space and playing youth is the path forward. Adding a guy like Noel at $20 mil a year is much less valuable than the cap space he would take up. There is not a lot of cap flexibility out there next off-season. Suns will have room and be one of the more desirable destinations.

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What teams even have cap space, much less cap space that even want a center? The market is depressed. There is no way he will get that type of money and if Paul convinces him to take a 1 year deal somewhere like he did with KCP or take the QO that is very risky with his injury history.

Mason Plumlee still unsigned as well, and Denver doesn't even need him that badly.

[jredsaz]

Dallas would love to match any deal for 13 or 14 million.

They've offered him a 3/4 year deal at $17 million per and Noel has declined that as he wants a max.

Which is also another way of me saying no, I don't want him at all.

At this point maximizing next year's cap space and playing youth is the path forward. Adding a guy like Noel at $20 mil a year is much less valuable than the cap space he would take up. There is not a lot of cap flexibility out there next off-season. Suns will have room and be one of the more desirable destinations.

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What teams even have cap space, much less cap space that even want a center? The market is depressed. There is no way he will get that type of money and if Paul convinces him to take a 1 year deal somewhere like he did with KCP or take the QO that is very risky with his injury history.

Mason Plumlee still unsigned as well, and Denver doesn't even need him that badly.

Wait, Noel is a Rich Paul client?! Lmao!!!! No wonder he didn't accept the Mavs offer.

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[bwgood77]

At this point maximizing next year's cap space and playing youth is the path forward. Adding a guy like Noel at $20 mil a year is much less valuable than the cap space he would take up. There is not a lot of cap flexibility out there next off-season. Suns will have room and be one of the more desirable destinations.

Sent from my SM-N920V using RealGM mobile app

What teams even have cap space, much less cap space that even want a center? The market is depressed. There is no way he will get that type of money and if Paul convinces him to take a 1 year deal somewhere like he did with KCP or take the QO that is very risky with his injury history.

Mason Plumlee still unsigned as well, and Denver doesn't even need him that badly.

Wait, Noel is a Rich Paul client?! Lmao!!!! No wonder he didn't accept the Mavs offer.

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He just switched a few days ago...mad his agent hadn't gotten anything done...bad move.

[AtheJ415]

Ainge hate is funny,
He took a team with oil pierce and in one offseason made trades to create the big 3 and go on to win a title

They got old and basically ALL RETIRED or aren't stars anymore

So he hires a coach from, Butler, then makes trades and draft picks and 3 years later his team is the #1 sead in the east.

Ainge traded- Marcus Thornton , and the 31 pick in draft
For
ISiah Thomas
When he then flipped for kyrie Irving a 24 year old all star.

I think people under Estemate how impressive that is.

AINGE is a top 5 GM in this league.

Simply not true as far as Kyrie. He traded IT, Crowder, Zizic, and the unprotected Brooklyn pick, which has arguably more value than all of those other guys, and which he got due to a horrendously stupid GM who immediately ran the Nets into the ground. I would actually argue that Crowder is as important in that trade as IT given his contract situation.

I won't debate if you want to say he's a top 5 GM, but the vast majority of that in the past decade comes from his ability to make a single trade with the Nets that imo he has largely squandered. Those old guys didn't get old and retire--he traded them before then (to his credit), and received an insane amount for them from a GM who was bidding against himself and who did a truly awful job. He also didn't know what he had in IT when he traded for him, so it's kind of weird to give him a ton of credit for rampant unexpected development. He has drafted horribly (I would argue the worst among all GMs over the past decade), and IMO he has botched the past 2 seasons if you look at the cap, his situation with IT, and the opportunity he really had to throw superstars into his cap situation. He had 2 seasons to use those picks or his cap space to develop a big 4. He instead punted based on his trust in his ability to draft thinking his picks had more value than Paul George or Jimmy Butler. I think that will backfire. Both guys he took were at least slight reaches at their spots, and I don't see any chance for Brown to become a star. I think his value may take a big hit this season actually if he doesn't improve in his expanded role. I think Tatum has a small chance but we will see.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

What teams even have cap space, much less cap space that even want a center? The market is depressed. There is no way he will get that type of money and if Paul convinces him to take a 1 year deal somewhere like he did with KCP or take the QO that is very risky with his injury history.

Mason Plumlee still unsigned as well, and Denver doesn't even need him that badly.

Wait, Noel is a Rich Paul client?! Lmao!!!! No wonder he didn't accept the Mavs offer.

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He just switched a few days ago...mad his agent hadn't gotten anything done...bad move.

I've thought Noel was a headcase for years. Part of the reason he slipped on draft day, part of the reason he wasn't worth anything in trade, part of the reason he didn't get any FA offers, and most of the reason he hasn't signed a deal. Probably also a factor in his long injury recovery times and his injury frequency.

Blech. You can have all the talent in the world but nothing upstairs, or you can have the right mentality and all the physical gifts but just not have the coordination or those certain mental gifts that allow you to get it done. That's why the draft is such a crap shoot.

[AtheJ415]

What the Celtics could have gotten in other trades is all speculation. They may have no interest in Boogie for all of the reasons many mention. They may have not wanted to give up a bunch of assets to get 1 year of George.

They may have been able to get Butler but we don't know for sure what went on there.

I wouldn't doubt Ainge, given his track record with trades. He may have given up too much for Kyrie but maybe doesn't get him at all otherwise. Maybe he is worried about IT's hip or maybe he didn't want to max him out anyway. I wouldn't want to.

He's never had high draft picks until he took Smart, Brown and Tatum. What ultimately comes of these guys remains to be seen. Smart is a defensive hound who is a nice guy to have next to Kyrie. Smart is not a guy to judge by PER, given his strengths and PER favoring offense and bigs who get rebounds and blocks. Smart and Brown will likely be the nice defensive guys you want around Kyrie, Hayward and Tatum.

I've always thought their core was overrated, but Stevens always seems to squeeze the most out of them to outperform my expectations. They are still likely to lose to Cleveland but who knows? And they still added a couple of high picks the last couple of years...wings during a time where positionless basketball is becoming more common.

I think it's pretty reliable "speculation" though. You can look at who got dealt for what and pretty reasonably assume whether Boston could or should have beaten that deal. And these refusals to include any picks or certain players have been reported widely by trustworthy reporters. I believe it was Woj who said they didn't even make an offer for George because they didn't believe Indiana when they said they were going to trade him that day. It has only been after those reports that local Boston guys have tried to throw out these crazy offers in what seems to be a defensive maneuver (like that Indy didn't give them a chance to make an offer, or that they offered 7 first rounders for Justise Winslow, neither of which really seems believable).

Also, Ainge's track record with trades is to only do trades that are heavily lopsided, and he has a strong reputation for that, so the reports we saw regarding George and Butler are very believable given that. I am someone who actually likes what Chicago got for Butler and doesn't see it as quite the lopsided deal others do, but I still believe they could have gotten him if they included one of their elite picks and one of their mediocre picks because teams generally would prefer to draft their own guys. For instance, Fultz alone gets either in my opinion, but they traded that for essentially Tatum and whatever pick comes from that LA/Philly scenario.
I would rather Butler locked into a multi-year deal. Regardless, the real miss imo is George. He isn't a guarantee to stay but neither is Kyrie, and I don't think George would be leaving Boston where he would have been the 1 seed in all likelihood to rebuild in LA given how much he values winning. I think the Nets pick plus Crowder alone probably makes that trade better than OKC's, and if you had to include even Smart or Brown I still consider that a win. George is another level from Kyrie and I don't personally think Brown is going to become much more than a defensive role player.

It's certainly possible that Smart and Brown are guys who fit well on the team, and I think Stevens will make them effective no matter what. I think Stevens actually will get a lot of Kyrie and he may improve a decent amount under him, but I will say Smart is not a guy I would be excited to be given for nothing on the Suns. His numbers are not good, and he is about to hit FA. He isn't awful, but when that is the best pick you can tout for a decade you are doing a bad job, even if dealing with relatively later picks. His D is good but not enough to make up for his offense in a way that I would call him an impact player or somebody to build upon for the future.

Looking at their group, I think Tatum has the best chance of becoming a great player of their picks, but I wouldn't let him hold me from a trade for George or Butler in their scenario, where they are contending now and get both player's bird rights, with both young enough to keep their window open for a long time. I would let Fultz prevent me from such a trade, but that is a different discussion at this point.

There is zero chance I would give up really good assets for George when his agent came out and said anyone who traded for him would be getting him with the understanding that he would be a rental, especially with all the other rumblings that people knew he was going to LA.

I wouldn't be really excited to have Smart on the Suns mainly because we desperately need shooting. He'd need to improve in that area. But on a team like that with elite efficient scorers, he fits pretty well.

Saying that he won't sign an extension before FA isn't the same as saying he is a rental. He wasn't going to guarantee in any way that he would stay, but that isn't the same as saying he will leave. Kyrie's agent has actually said the same exact thing (though he has an extra year on his deal). Boston said they were okay with it because they are confident they can convince Kyrie to stay. That is the same situation as George.

I think it's reasonable to think that trading 1 of those Brooklyn picks, for a team in Boston's situation, is okay for George. And from the reports that came out after the fact, Boston claims to have offered up that pick in the past for George, but that when Indy called them to get their best offer, they didn't make one and refused to put that pick back on the table. I also saw reliable reports that they would have included said pick, but that they simply didn't believe Indiana was serious about trading him that night. I don't think this was the "rental scenario" holding it back because aside from those reports, the other offer accepted was so low that it was really easy to beat. It wasn't even close to the real value of george.

Smart is a good fit for their team, but I don't think he's legitimately good at all. I am trying to think of who I would even consider trading for him on Phoenix and I can't really find anyone aside from maybe one of the old vets simply out of age consideration given our obvious rebuilding scenario. He shoots horribly (though he has improved from the line a lot to his credit), and his DBPM to me doesn't outweigh his bad offense. His OBPM-DBPM last year was actually negative, and his WS's not that great given the team he plays for and how many wins they get. To me he is basically PJ Tucker before Tucker learned how to shoot the corner 3, and with an unconscious shot selection (kind of like if Tucker had Brandon Knight's mentality for chucking). To be investible to me you have to really believe he will improve across the board offensively by a large margin. If he improves just the 3 ball and his 2 point percentages and his shot selection he is basically Tucker. And the problem is he has such a reputation as a winner due to the team and coach he plays for, I think he will get overpaid in FA, similar to Olynyk. I think Smart is a guy that Ainge will rightly let walk in FA, and I expect he gets something north of $9 mil a year, which to me is way more than he is worth.

[AtheJ415]

What teams even have cap space, much less cap space that even want a center? The market is depressed. There is no way he will get that type of money and if Paul convinces him to take a 1 year deal somewhere like he did with KCP or take the QO that is very risky with his injury history.

Mason Plumlee still unsigned as well, and Denver doesn't even need him that badly.

Wait, Noel is a Rich Paul client?! Lmao!!!! No wonder he didn't accept the Mavs offer.

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He just switched a few days ago...mad his agent hadn't gotten anything done...bad move.

Paul is bad at math. He has a history of guys signing the QO, and not all of them work out. He talked Kevin Seraphin into declining a giant deal with Washington (I believe it was 8 figures annually) to sign the QO. The following season he had to take a minimal short-term offer (i want to say 2 mil) from another team because his interest had declined.

When a team offers you $17 mil and your max is $20 mil, since the contracts are 3-4 years, you are only gaining in a best-case scenario $12 mil. You are risking so much more than that, not just via injury, but if you take the QO I don't think you can actually make money. I believe Noel's QO Is less than Len's due to draft position, which would be what, $8 mil or so? Thus, he loses $8 mil in year 1, and at best gets another $12 mil over the following 4 years, or $9 mil over 3 (which actually would be a loss if he invested the $8 mil in year 1 correctly). And even then if you went to Dallas and said you will sign today for $18 mil they probably say yes.

It makes so little sense that I wonder if Lebron does something like guarantee any losses behind the scenes. Or maybe Paul and the players are really that stupid.

[jcsunsfan]

What the Celtics could have gotten in other trades is all speculation. They may have no interest in Boogie for all of the reasons many mention. They may have not wanted to give up a bunch of assets to get 1 year of George.

They may have been able to get Butler but we don't know for sure what went on there.

I wouldn't doubt Ainge, given his track record with trades. He may have given up too much for Kyrie but maybe doesn't get him at all otherwise. Maybe he is worried about IT's hip or maybe he didn't want to max him out anyway. I wouldn't want to.

He's never had high draft picks until he took Smart, Brown and Tatum. What ultimately comes of these guys remains to be seen. Smart is a defensive hound who is a nice guy to have next to Kyrie. Smart is not a guy to judge by PER, given his strengths and PER favoring offense and bigs who get rebounds and blocks. Smart and Brown will likely be the nice defensive guys you want around Kyrie, Hayward and Tatum.

I've always thought their core was overrated, but Stevens always seems to squeeze the most out of them to outperform my expectations. They are still likely to lose to Cleveland but who knows? And they still added a couple of high picks the last couple of years...wings during a time where positionless basketball is becoming more common.

I think it's pretty reliable "speculation" though. You can look at who got dealt for what and pretty reasonably assume whether Boston could or should have beaten that deal. And these refusals to include any picks or certain players have been reported widely by trustworthy reporters. I believe it was Woj who said they didn't even make an offer for George because they didn't believe Indiana when they said they were going to trade him that day. It has only been after those reports that local Boston guys have tried to throw out these crazy offers in what seems to be a defensive maneuver (like that Indy didn't give them a chance to make an offer, or that they offered 7 first rounders for Justise Winslow, neither of which really seems believable).

Also, Ainge's track record with trades is to only do trades that are heavily lopsided, and he has a strong reputation for that, so the reports we saw regarding George and Butler are very believable given that. I am someone who actually likes what Chicago got for Butler and doesn't see it as quite the lopsided deal others do, but I still believe they could have gotten him if they included one of their elite picks and one of their mediocre picks because teams generally would prefer to draft their own guys. For instance, Fultz alone gets either in my opinion, but they traded that for essentially Tatum and whatever pick comes from that LA/Philly scenario.
I would rather Butler locked into a multi-year deal. Regardless, the real miss imo is George. He isn't a guarantee to stay but neither is Kyrie, and I don't think George would be leaving Boston where he would have been the 1 seed in all likelihood to rebuild in LA given how much he values winning. I think the Nets pick plus Crowder alone probably makes that trade better than OKC's, and if you had to include even Smart or Brown I still consider that a win. George is another level from Kyrie and I don't personally think Brown is going to become much more than a defensive role player.

It's certainly possible that Smart and Brown are guys who fit well on the team, and I think Stevens will make them effective no matter what. I think Stevens actually will get a lot of Kyrie and he may improve a decent amount under him, but I will say Smart is not a guy I would be excited to be given for nothing on the Suns. His numbers are not good, and he is about to hit FA. He isn't awful, but when that is the best pick you can tout for a decade you are doing a bad job, even if dealing with relatively later picks. His D is good but not enough to make up for his offense in a way that I would call him an impact player or somebody to build upon for the future.

Looking at their group, I think Tatum has the best chance of becoming a great player of their picks, but I wouldn't let him hold me from a trade for George or Butler in their scenario, where they are contending now and get both player's bird rights, with both young enough to keep their window open for a long time. I would let Fultz prevent me from such a trade, but that is a different discussion at this point.

There is zero chance I would give up really good assets for George when his agent came out and said anyone who traded for him would be getting him with the understanding that he would be a rental, especially with all the other rumblings that people knew he was going to LA.

I wouldn't be really excited to have Smart on the Suns mainly because we desperately need shooting. He'd need to improve in that area. But on a team like that with elite efficient scorers, he fits pretty well.

This. And they already had their sites on Hayward.


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[Book1Nation]

I believe Noel's QO Is less than Len's due to draft position, which would be what, $8 mil or so?

His QO is $5.8 million this year, and the longer he holds out the more likely that will be his only offer.

It would be incredibly stupid to play on that considering his injury history. Noel should take his $17 million and kiss Mark Cuban's feet while he's at it.

[AtheJ415]

I think it's pretty reliable "speculation" though. You can look at who got dealt for what and pretty reasonably assume whether Boston could or should have beaten that deal. And these refusals to include any picks or certain players have been reported widely by trustworthy reporters. I believe it was Woj who said they didn't even make an offer for George because they didn't believe Indiana when they said they were going to trade him that day. It has only been after those reports that local Boston guys have tried to throw out these crazy offers in what seems to be a defensive maneuver (like that Indy didn't give them a chance to make an offer, or that they offered 7 first rounders for Justise Winslow, neither of which really seems believable).

Also, Ainge's track record with trades is to only do trades that are heavily lopsided, and he has a strong reputation for that, so the reports we saw regarding George and Butler are very believable given that. I am someone who actually likes what Chicago got for Butler and doesn't see it as quite the lopsided deal others do, but I still believe they could have gotten him if they included one of their elite picks and one of their mediocre picks because teams generally would prefer to draft their own guys. For instance, Fultz alone gets either in my opinion, but they traded that for essentially Tatum and whatever pick comes from that LA/Philly scenario.
I would rather Butler locked into a multi-year deal. Regardless, the real miss imo is George. He isn't a guarantee to stay but neither is Kyrie, and I don't think George would be leaving Boston where he would have been the 1 seed in all likelihood to rebuild in LA given how much he values winning. I think the Nets pick plus Crowder alone probably makes that trade better than OKC's, and if you had to include even Smart or Brown I still consider that a win. George is another level from Kyrie and I don't personally think Brown is going to become much more than a defensive role player.

It's certainly possible that Smart and Brown are guys who fit well on the team, and I think Stevens will make them effective no matter what. I think Stevens actually will get a lot of Kyrie and he may improve a decent amount under him, but I will say Smart is not a guy I would be excited to be given for nothing on the Suns. His numbers are not good, and he is about to hit FA. He isn't awful, but when that is the best pick you can tout for a decade you are doing a bad job, even if dealing with relatively later picks. His D is good but not enough to make up for his offense in a way that I would call him an impact player or somebody to build upon for the future.

Looking at their group, I think Tatum has the best chance of becoming a great player of their picks, but I wouldn't let him hold me from a trade for George or Butler in their scenario, where they are contending now and get both player's bird rights, with both young enough to keep their window open for a long time. I would let Fultz prevent me from such a trade, but that is a different discussion at this point.

There is zero chance I would give up really good assets for George when his agent came out and said anyone who traded for him would be getting him with the understanding that he would be a rental, especially with all the other rumblings that people knew he was going to LA.

I wouldn't be really excited to have Smart on the Suns mainly because we desperately need shooting. He'd need to improve in that area. But on a team like that with elite efficient scorers, he fits pretty well.

This. And they already had their sites on Hayward.


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They could have had, and openly were trying to have, both. They always wanted and really should have been able to get another guy outside of Hayward, and when they were pursuing George and Butler they were pretty widely reported to still want Hayward, which makes sense given Hayward and George and Butler are guys who can play multiple positions, and the Celtics have needs at all of their positions.

[gaspar]

I believe Noel's QO Is less than Len's due to draft position, which would be what, $8 mil or so?

His QO is $5.8 million this year, and the longer he holds out the more likely that will be his only offer.

It would be incredibly stupid to play on that considering his injury history. Noel should take his $17 million and kiss Mark Cuban's feet while he's at it.

Nope. Len's and Noel's qualifying offers are the same: $4,187,599.

[Book1Nation]

I believe Noel's QO Is less than Len's due to draft position, which would be what, $8 mil or so?

His QO is $5.8 million this year, and the longer he holds out the more likely that will be his only offer.

It would be incredibly stupid to play on that considering his injury history. Noel should take his $17 million and kiss Mark Cuban's feet while he's at it.

Nope. Len's and Noel's qualifying offers are the same: $4,187,599.

You are right, neither of them met the starter's criteria.

[AtheJ415]

So even worse. Noel would be losing 13 mil in year 1, meaning even if he got maxed the following year he would not be making any profit. I get holding out like this if the offer was 12 mil or less, but 17 a year is beyond reasonable imo.

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[DirtyDez]

Suns might have the edge now in the slim chance that AD could be available if the Pels underwhelm and chemistry is a disaster with Cousins and Rondo.

Boston could trade Brown or Tatum plus the Lakers' pick. We could deal 3-4 first rd picks plus Warren or Chriss/Bender if they take a sophomore leap. Unluckily it happens but it's still August and we need stuff to talk about.