Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 1

[Puff]

Ainge got robbed. lol

No he didn't. He managed to keep most of their young core guys (Tatum, Brown, and Smart). All he did was get rid of someone they weren't gonna pay the max, an aging vet, and a draft pick that won't be in the Top 5 next year after the Nets improvement this offseason.

Kudos to Ainge. He had the better bargaining chips with IT > Bledsoe.

I agree with most of that but I am not sure IT is greater than Bledsoe. I certainly could be wrong and IT had a hell of a year but Bledsoe may have been a better fit in Cleveland.

It appears to me that it came down to the unprotected pick from Brooklyn.

I am curious to know exactly what we actually offered. Everything is all speculation at this point.

I suggested this a few days ago.

Who on this board would trade Bledsoe for IT straight up, now?

I have always liked IT's game but he is just too small. I have the same reservations about Ulis. Another guy I like but am not in love with him as our potential lead point guard. I certainly hope we can keep him and that he stays healthy but he has had health issues already and it is very early in his career while playing limited minutes.

Bledsoe and our pick top 10 protected for Kyrie and Shumpert. Take it or leave it. If they want Chandler or Dudley I would include them as well.

[DirtyDez]

As long as the BRK pick doesn't fail it's physical the deal will go thru. Isaiah is the 2nd best asset in the deal.

[ryanball]

I have always liked IT's game but he is just too small. I have the same reservations about Ulis. Another guy I like but am not in love with him as our potential lead point guard. I certainly hope we can keep him and that he stays healthy but he has had health issues already and it is very early in his career while playing limited minutes.

Totally agree. Those guys do have a sort of a built-in appeal, being closer to the height of most of the fans and kids they are easier to relate to, the idea of overcoming the odds and all that. However, in the playoffs you just can't have guys who are 5'8" starting or playing big minutes and expect to win. They are too easy to exploit in a series.

I appreciate Ulis and I hope he can be a guy who plays a few minutes here and there as a change of pace, but yeah he should definitely never be our leading PG. Even being the primary backup is suspect in my view.

Bledsoe and our pick top 10 protected for Kyrie and Shumpert. Take it or leave it. If they want Chandler or Dudley I would include them as well.

Seems about right. Although I would be happy to include Chriss because I think he's a bust, but then again the Cavs probably think that also. At this point I'd be more hesitant to include Bender, and would absolutely not give up Jackson.

[jredsaz]

Isiah would have to be sent to a fourth team.

Why?

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Perhaps because literally any other team would have a better chance to re-sign him. But I can think of lots of other reasons, too. Would we be better off waiving him, given that he won't want to be here and won't even pretend to consider re-signing with us? So why wouldn't he just stay in Cleveland with Bledsoe and Derrick Rose?

I honestly don't think Klutch Sports is eager to put Bledsoe in Cleveland. I just think that even if they did, it makes more sense for IT to land almost anywhere else. The thing I'd want in this Irving-IT-Nets thing is the pick. Send IT to a team that will give up a first rounder for him.

But that's the point. Suns don't plan to resign him. If Thomas can't currently be traded for value given the injury then rehab him to a point where he does have value. Suns have the time to do that.

They allow Thomas to rehab the hip and then showcase his health/skill before the trade deadline. If the Suns, after conducting a physical, believe he can be on the court at full strength by the middle of January it's worth a shot.

His salary v skill ratio is off the charts. There will be teams who want cheap talent on a rental or who may be willing to trade for Thomas a give him a large deal.

Suns receive a young center, 2 firsts, and move on from Chandler or Dudleys contract. Even if they lose Thomas for nothing it's a decent deal. It's an ultimate tank move.

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[AtheJ415]

Any one have any interest in Smart?

Saw a trade idea to help with the Boston/Cleveland trade, pretty much having us use Bledsoe to replace IT and getting Smart/Shumpert/BOS 1st in return.

I like the idea of a defensive PG next to Booker, but damn Smarts offense is bad.

It's not Smart to want Smart. He is a negative player right now. His age (22) and upside might be worthwhile for free, but not at the expense of Bledsoe. Boston in the east is a super late first, and we are also taking Shump's horrible deal in the process? Not worthwhile.

Smart on offense is PJ Tucker's shooting with Brandon Knight's mindset. It is not desirable.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

I actually really like Smart, and if he were open to signing a reasonable extension (say, $15m per), I'd be open to trading Bled for him. I think he could work well with Ulis and Booker. Minus Bled, we will desperately need some physicality in the back court.

[collidingNeurons]

even taking into account of the train wreck appeal of this Kyrie ongoing saga, i just want it to be over and the Suns not involved in any of it/ The last thing i want is Kyrie back in Cleveland waiting on the Suns to give up either Jackson or the 18 first round pick

[Moochthemonkey]

As long as the BRK pick doesn't fail it's physical the deal will go thru.

well I guess CLE's medical staff hypothetically can check out the top ten lottery candidates...unless this is some kind of joke that's going over my head...oh wait, this is your way of saying it's already a done deal irregardless of IT's health, and this news is just filler (good one)

Isaiah is the 2nd best asset in the deal.

if CLE is trying to win a championship this year and retain Lebron, then not really

[bwgood77]

Any one have any interest in Smart?

Saw a trade idea to help with the Boston/Cleveland trade, pretty much having us use Bledsoe to replace IT and getting Smart/Shumpert/BOS 1st in return.

I like the idea of a defensive PG next to Booker, but damn Smarts offense is bad.

I love Smart as a player...he's better than what Fox was coming out on both sides of the ball....better 3 pt shooter, but quite a bit better defender. The problem is that you just can't have offensive liabilities on the floor much anymore. Since IT was insane offensively for them it worked and would probably work either Kyrie. Our offensive efficiency is already so bad it would only get worse with him, but of course with improved defense. I'd pass.

[AtheJ415]

I'm really torn about whether I want this deal to be vetoed.

On the one thing, I would find it incredibly funny. The awkwardness of those guys going back to Boston would be epic. Also, the fact that Boston overpaid is a positive to Phoenix in relation to future trades. On the other hand, if Boston is out, and it is because of IT's hip, then that trade essentially became Crowder, Zizic, and Nets pick. Phoenix is one of the few teams who would still make sense, and if you remove IT from the deal, you are left with not nearly as much. Crowder, Zizic is a late first, and then the Nets pick. Something like Bledsoe and Warren might be better than that because Bledsoe>>Crowder and Warren>Zizic.

Regardless, I feel like the most likely thing to occur from this may be that Boston has to add a future pick or something. I don't expect Boston to walk away from that type of request and have to deal with IT and Crowder coming back.

I don't understand the bolded part because why would the Cavs accept the deal just because they are getting an extra pick? Sure the picks are nice, but if IT is dealing with a serious injury or could be out most of the season that really ruins any hope at a championship run this season or any hope of Lebron staying. If I'm the Cavs I back out immediately to find another package that is similar.

I don't think they believe Lebron is really staying unless they can pull a package like the Celtics deal. The problem is no other team can offer that. Phoenix is the only other team with that combo of players and picks and there is no way we are including a pick as valuable as that Brooklyn one, and I don't think we have the win-now players of IT and Crowder's caliber. We have just Bled really, and Dudley/Chandler/etc. are not as good as and as favorable contract-wise as Crowder.

[AtheJ415]

Any one have any interest in Smart?

Saw a trade idea to help with the Boston/Cleveland trade, pretty much having us use Bledsoe to replace IT and getting Smart/Shumpert/BOS 1st in return.

I like the idea of a defensive PG next to Booker, but damn Smarts offense is bad.

I love Smart as a player...he's better than what Fox was coming out on both sides of the ball....better 3 pt shooter, but quite a bit better defender. The problem is that you just can't have offensive liabilities on the floor much anymore. Since IT was insane offensively for them it worked and would probably work either Kyrie. Our offensive efficiency is already so bad it would only get worse with him, but of course with improved defense. I'd pass.

I wouldn't say he's better than Fox offensively. His shooting numbers are worse than Fox's in college overall (TS and EFG). And with Fox you know he can get to the hoop at the NBA level due to his speed, which is very valuable. I can't see anything Smart does at a good level on offense in the NBA aside from FT%. He is a better defender, but he is so bad offensively 3 years in that I would much rather run the chance of Fox developing than Smart. Looking at his numbers he is shooting about the same from everywhere as his rookie year, with roughly the same shooting attempt rate, and with only improvement from the FT line. I would expect at least some legitimate minor improvement by now given how bad he was coming out on the offensive end. Besides, mindset matters and Smart straight chucks on offense. And when you watch him they aren't good shots. He almost has Brandon Knight's mentality imo (Knight takes a couple more shots a game/minute, but Knight is also a much better shooter than Smart sadly).

Another issue is he has a reputation as a winner (similar to Knight), which means he will get paid a premium that might not be warranted (like Knight), and he is an FA fairly soon.

I honestly wouldn't trade any of our youngsters for him except maybe Peters. Maybe I am being too harsh there, but I would rather Ulis get those minutes. Imo Ulis will end up better than Smart within 2 years. I'd take a pick or Bled way above Smart.

If we could get him for one of the vets, like Dudley or Chandler, okay. Then I'd be alright taking the chance on him given his age with the hopes he becomes anything on offense.

[bwgood77]

Any one have any interest in Smart?

Saw a trade idea to help with the Boston/Cleveland trade, pretty much having us use Bledsoe to replace IT and getting Smart/Shumpert/BOS 1st in return.

I like the idea of a defensive PG next to Booker, but damn Smarts offense is bad.

I love Smart as a player...he's better than what Fox was coming out on both sides of the ball....better 3 pt shooter, but quite a bit better defender. The problem is that you just can't have offensive liabilities on the floor much anymore. Since IT was insane offensively for them it worked and would probably work either Kyrie. Our offensive efficiency is already so bad it would only get worse with him, but of course with improved defense. I'd pass.

I wouldn't say he's better than Fox offensively. His shooting numbers are worse than Fox's in college overall (TS and EFG). And with Fox you know he can get to the hoop at the NBA level due to his speed, which is very valuable. I can't see anything Smart does at a good level on offense in the NBA aside from FT%. He is a better defender, but he is so bad offensively 3 years in that I would much rather run the chance of Fox developing than Smart. Looking at his numbers he is shooting about the same from everywhere as his rookie year, with roughly the same shooting attempt rate, and with only improvement from the FT line. I would expect at least some legitimate minor improvement by now given how bad he was coming out on the offensive end. Besides, mindset matters and Smart straight chucks on offense. And when you watch him they aren't good shots. He almost has Brandon Knight's mentality imo (Knight takes a couple more shots a game/minute, but Knight is also a much better shooter than Smart sadly).

Another issue is he has a reputation as a winner (similar to Knight), which means he will get paid a premium that might not be warranted (like Knight), and he is an FA fairly soon.

I honestly wouldn't trade any of our youngsters for him except maybe Peters. Maybe I am being too harsh there, but I would rather Ulis get those minutes. Imo Ulis will end up better than Smart within 2 years. I'd take a pick or Bled way above Smart.

If we could get him for one of the vets, like Dudley or Chandler, okay. Then I'd be alright taking the chance on him given his age with the hopes he becomes anything on offense.

I'm not saying I'd rather have Smart just that they are comparable and Smart was a better defender and even better from 3. I just pointed that out mostly because some were high on Fox who was even a worse shooter. But yes he is good at getting to rim and short range so ts% may have been better. Don't want either though.

[SideSwipe]

Any one have any interest in Smart?

Saw a trade idea to help with the Boston/Cleveland trade, pretty much having us use Bledsoe to replace IT and getting Smart/Shumpert/BOS 1st in return.

I like the idea of a defensive PG next to Booker, but damn Smarts offense is bad.

No I'd rather have a Booker/Jackson backcourt run together and get minutes, chemistry and exprience together than add smart who might be better defensively but lacks so much else. I think to displace Jackson minutes in the backcourt with Booker, it would need to be a clearly better all around PG. Frankly there aren't that many.

[SideSwipe]

As long as the BRK pick doesn't fail it's physical the deal will go thru.

well I guess CLE's medical staff hypothetically can check out the top ten lottery candidates...unless this is some kind of joke that's going over my head...oh wait, this is your way of saying it's already a done deal irregardless of IT's health, and this news is just filler (good one)

Isaiah is the 2nd best asset in the deal.

if CLE is trying to win a championship this year and retain Lebron, then not really

Not necessarily because it leaves CLE without a high-quality starting PG. They might be able to swing it with Wade handling off guard and LBJ working as the PG, then sliding in another SF/PF into the slot. I'm not sure LBJ wants to do that. It will take a lot of his energy to match up against those PG's defensively.

[Kerrsed]

Read on Twitter

So it looks like the Cav's now want more from Boston due to Thomas's physical.

[King4Day]

Read on Twitter

So it looks like the Cav's now want more from Boston due to Thomas's physical.

I wonder how much they want. I'm guessing Boston's first maybe? Not like it's really worth anything but it's something. I wonder how long they expect IT to be out for. If it's months or half a season, then they have every right to ask for more.

I still hope the Suns get involved and somehow snag Smart while sending EB to the Cavs. I hope Boston fails at everything they do.

[NavLDO]

I don't consider Chandler a 'high-character vet', TBH. As someone else mentioned a few weeks ago, it sure as heck did not seem as if he provided a whole-heck of a lot of 'mentor-ship' to Len the past two years; I believe he's been all about himself.

And yes, I am disappointed in this off-season so far.

Minnesota turned a disappointing Kris Dunn (equate to Bender), an ACL-torn Zach Lavine (a 'better' Davon Reed) and Markannen (a 'worse' Josh Jackson) into Jimmy Butler.

Boston turned a midget, aging, injured PG (IT), Crowder, a late-1st Rd pick (Zizic), and a probable mid-to-late lottery into a star PG. We could/should have given less, and gotten him.

OKC turned a mediocre Victor Oladipo and Sabonis?? We couldn't beat that?? Look at this comparison...almost carbon copies, even age-wise, they are separated by a mere 150 days or so.

http://bkref.com/tiny/vREv3

I know 90-95% of the board here is 100% NO on trading Jackson, but he's proven nothing yet...maybe he'll be good, but who knows. I DO know we have Jackson, Warren, Booker, Bledsoe, Bender, Chriss, Ulis, and Williams, with Dudley/Chandler/BK available for Salary Matching purposes, and none of them are on 'bad' contracts...BK you say?? I'll take his $14.5M for 3yrs over (his, remember, carbon-copy I just showed above,) Oladipo at $21M for 4yrs. Plus, we have two extra future draft picks, as well.

We also need to bring back Len, or go after Noel ASAP so they can become 'pieces' as well.

Point is, we have plenty of trade-worthy assets...just as many as Minny did, and sure, less than the Sixers, but that's ONE team. And if teams can turn a $21M Oladipo over 4 years into PG, then I really don't want hear about how 'terrible' our players are like Bender, Chriss, Warren, etc. They are every bit as good of assets, or better, than Kris Dunn, Zach Lavine, Sabonis, or $21M Oladipo.

And lastly...no, I do not advocate trading Booker...he's off the table, and IMO, Warren should be as well. He's poised to really break out this year if given the opportunity.

Zach LaVine is so much more valuable than Davon Reed it's not even funny. LaVine was the centerpiece of that trade coming off a 19/3/3 season shooting 57 TS% (and a PER of 14.6, 115 DRtg, and .8 VORP--hardly a star...) as the 3rd option, -- Thank you...that was my point. A 3rd scoring option on a non-playoff team, that is coming off an ACL tear, and will miss part of next season...THAT was the 'centerpiece'. My point was they are both young SGs with Injury...that's why I said BETTER.

...while Reed is like 3 months younger than Lavine and is unlikely to ever produce like that. -- And you know this, how?? Oh, because he was drafted 32nd, right? No one has ever been drafted at the top of the 2nd Rd and succeeded in this league to be a 3rd option on a losing team...

Chicago also obviously valued Markkanen highly considering they passed on Frank and DSJ for him despite having no real PG options going forward unless you count Dunn, which I don't. -- I don't really care what they valued Markkanen as; until he's done something in this league, he's a 7th Rd Draft Pick and nothing more. My point in all this is that Minny traded 3 pieces that the Suns could easily duplicate, and walk away with a Star player like Minny did. We have a 3rd scoring option on a losing team (Warren, and please don't try to tell me how much better LaVine is than Warren, because Warren beat him in OWS, DWS,WS, WS/48, VORP, PER, 2PT%, FG%, and EVERY defensive stat there is...and Warren's not good on D, so that's saying something...), anyway, we have a High Lottery Pick, and again, we had a disappointing top 5 pick...that was my whole point.

What makes you say the Brooklyn pick is probably mid-to-late lottery now? I don't see how they got any better. They lost their best player by a considerable margin that literally won them multiple games last year, and they replaced him with a terrible center and D'Angelo Russell, who hasn't exactly shown a big impact on winning basketball games yet.

It didn't make sense for us to go after PG. We definitely could have beat that offer, but why would we give up assets for a guy that has been publicly saying he wants to go to one of our division rivals? We'd be left looking like fools if we packaged TJ and Bender for PG, only for him to leave in the offseason for our division rival. -- Where did I say TJ and Bender for PG?? Obviously, you didn't open the link, because had you done so, you would have been looking at a BK/Oladipo comparison. And no, I would not have traded Bender, but if Sabonis deal done, we could have worked something out. Not to mention, you sure do like to use that 'crystal ball' as gospel. I'm not saying he wouldn't leave, but a year is a long time, 1, and 2, within that year, we may have been able to use PG's presence to bring in more talent, and vice versa, we bring in talent, we play well, maybe he doesn't jump ship if the Lakers don't play so hot, and the Suns appear to be a team on the rise.

At least OKC has a chance to bring him back because this might be able to get them to the WCF if PG and Russ mesh well, but it's more likely that they gave up 2 decent young players for a year rental. -- Sabonis had a 6.9 PER and since you like TS% so much, a .469 TS%...as a PF...that's not good. A VORP of -1.2. Even Bender had a VORP of -.3, and showed some promise on Defense/Blks. And again, Oladipo is pretty much a BK clone, so...I guess if you feel BK is a promising young player, then sure, because like I said, a whopping 150 days separate the two in age.

If Len was viewed as having any significant value, he'd have some offer sheets right now. I'm fine bringing him back for cheap, but he's not going to be looked at as much more than a throw in if we dealt him.

I felt like this offseason was more about internal development. The more young talent we add and the sooner we focus on our young guys becoming the best players they can be, the sooner that we can turn these assets into better players while feeling comfortable that they won't leave at their first opportunity. Nothing in our treasure chest expired this offseason, and if we make strides this offseason I wouldn't be surprised if we started being more aggressive with dangling our pick and Miami's pick. I didn't like being blue-balled on KP and Kyrie this offseason either, but Phil got fired for even trying to trade KP and we appear to value JJ and our own pick too highly to be able to beat the Celtics' offer.

Now, your last paragraph, I agree with, for the most part. There is a good chance that Chriss, Bender, and Warren all increase their value (which, again, I'm not overly familiar with NBA contracts, etc., but if we can extend Warren this offseason,since we aren't bringing anyone of 'high value' in, then we should try to do it by any means necessary, because if his name finished with 'iggins' instead of 'arren', he'd be a stud right now...I mean, Wiggins is a bigger name, he's a better 3pt shooter (barely), and I get that 'stats' don't tell the whole story, but Wiggins has been a disappointment as a #1 Overall Pick, and Warren, in some aspects, is better. And if Warren gets another season, and puts up a 16/6/2-type season with a 3PT% anywhere close to 35%, he's going to command $20. If Oladipo can, Warren surely can, so let's sign him now to a 5yr/$70M, $14M per-type contract and we are sitting really nice next off-season, if Jackson has any semblance of a decent Rookie season...improved Bender, Chriss; matured Booker and Warren, and a new Jackson?

[Moochthemonkey]

Read on Twitter

So it looks like the Cav's now want more from Boston due to Thomas's physical.

I really hate this word, but I'm going to use it anyway. If Ainge caves into the Cavs demands and includes the LAL pick, then he's a prime example of a cuck. For one, Kyrie isn't worth two lottery picks (why not just draft Fultz?), secondly the Cavs never had the leverage due to Kyrie being the one making the request, and finally they are well aware that verifying trades are contingent on passed physicals. Either the Cavs accept the trade or veto it and move on.

That said, I could be eating crow IF Lebron leaves Cleveland AND Kyrie is able to lead a team like IT, and Brown and Taytum turn into something special. I suppose that's not unlikely, but Boston could more safely reach this path with IT, 1-2 more future lottery picks on the way, and cap-space next summer to sign another star before inking up Thomas, which now won't be available with Kyrie's 18$ million salary.

[AtheJ415]

Why?

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Perhaps because literally any other team would have a better chance to re-sign him. But I can think of lots of other reasons, too. Would we be better off waiving him, given that he won't want to be here and won't even pretend to consider re-signing with us? So why wouldn't he just stay in Cleveland with Bledsoe and Derrick Rose?

I honestly don't think Klutch Sports is eager to put Bledsoe in Cleveland. I just think that even if they did, it makes more sense for IT to land almost anywhere else. The thing I'd want in this Irving-IT-Nets thing is the pick. Send IT to a team that will give up a first rounder for him.

But that's the point. Suns don't plan to resign him. If Thomas can't currently be traded for value given the injury then rehab him to a point where he does have value. Suns have the time to do that.

They allow Thomas to rehab the hip and then showcase his health/skill before the trade deadline. If the Suns, after conducting a physical, believe he can be on the court at full strength by the middle of January it's worth a shot.

His salary v skill ratio is off the charts. There will be teams who want cheap talent on a rental or who may be willing to trade for Thomas a give him a large deal.

Suns receive a young center, 2 firsts, and move on from Chandler or Dudleys contract. Even if they lose Thomas for nothing it's a decent deal. It's an ultimate tank move.

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Problem is he may be out longer than that, and, even if he is healthy by the break, nobody is going to give up a ton for 1/2 a season of him. Best case scenario we are getting a late 1st from a playoff team, and we could get that just by taking Aldrich's salary.

[jredsaz]

Perhaps because literally any other team would have a better chance to re-sign him. But I can think of lots of other reasons, too. Would we be better off waiving him, given that he won't want to be here and won't even pretend to consider re-signing with us? So why wouldn't he just stay in Cleveland with Bledsoe and Derrick Rose?

I honestly don't think Klutch Sports is eager to put Bledsoe in Cleveland. I just think that even if they did, it makes more sense for IT to land almost anywhere else. The thing I'd want in this Irving-IT-Nets thing is the pick. Send IT to a team that will give up a first rounder for him.

But that's the point. Suns don't plan to resign him. If Thomas can't currently be traded for value given the injury then rehab him to a point where he does have value. Suns have the time to do that.

They allow Thomas to rehab the hip and then showcase his health/skill before the trade deadline. If the Suns, after conducting a physical, believe he can be on the court at full strength by the middle of January it's worth a shot.

His salary v skill ratio is off the charts. There will be teams who want cheap talent on a rental or who may be willing to trade for Thomas a give him a large deal.

Suns receive a young center, 2 firsts, and move on from Chandler or Dudleys contract. Even if they lose Thomas for nothing it's a decent deal. It's an ultimate tank move.

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Problem is he may be out longer than that, and, even if he is healthy by the break, nobody is going to give up a ton for 1/2 a season of him. Best case scenario we are getting a late 1st from a playoff team, and we could get that just by taking Aldrich's salary.

But he expires. Even if you get nothing you are looking at 2 firsts, Zizic, and unloading Chandler/Dudley salary. I think Shump opts out.

Honestly, I wouldn't do it. Keep Bledsoe, tank and we have a shot at signing Cousins and taking a big leap in 18/19.

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