RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #36

[Purch]

Watch on YouTube

Here's J-Kidd in Game 4 against the 2004 pistons, just as a reference to how good Kidd was . You guys know how good this 04 pistons defense was. The crazy part is, Prime J-Kidd's speed up and down the court was insane. After watching hours of footage, it's hard to describe how many fast break buckets were produced just by how fast Kidd was able to get the ball from a rebound, all the down to half court. He was always putting constant pressure on the defense after every board the nets would come down with. Kidd wasn't however the kind of point guard who needed the ball in his hands all the time. He'd routinely throw it down into the post, and trust the half court offense to produce. This was probally the reason he was able to pick off a lot of offensive boards.

Watch on YouTube

Here's Kidd's closeout game 4 against the Celtics in 2003, where he lead New Jersey to it's first series sweep in franchise history, by coming up big scoring wise, passing wise, rebounding wise and defensive wise. The reason J-Kidd seemed to always Impact the game, even when he was struggling, is because he was effective in so many aspects of the game. The two words I use most to describe him are "crafty" and "quick", and when you watch him, I think you can see how often those terms apply

Watch on YouTube

This is his game 2 against the Spurs in 2003 finals and is one of the best at showing his versatility in the way he gets his buckets. You also see just how great his size was against smaller point guards like Parker. Mind you this whole game, the Spurs frontcourt made it next to impossible to penetrate and get inside, so really most of his buckets were really just forcing the issue.

The nets were never stacked with talent, and honestly they relied on their defense to get them through most nights. However, on the other end they always called on Kidd to produce, and he did.


I'm honestly surprised he didn't go already. I know this forum has a tendency to degrade defensive pg's (Unless it's Chris Paul)

[drza]

I posted a lengthy scouting, box-score and impact-based article comparing Jason Kidd and Steve Nash several threads back. In it, I made the case that Kidd's measured, quantitatively demonstrable positive impact on both offense and defense, across a variety of different team situations, in a variety of different roles, across a nearly two-decade career made it arguable that Kidd should be higher on this list than Nash (who was voted in 26th). If you want to read/re-read my points, evidence and arguments, you can find it (with pictures, even) here: http://hoopslab.rotowire.com/post/164358653191/kidd-vs-nash-scouting-boxscores-and-impact

Last thread, I made another, similar post comparing Kidd and Payton. I didn't go as in depth, but in my view, Kidd was better across their respective primes than Payton. That he also had better longevity while maintaining higher impact outside of his prime, makes it even clearer to me that Kidd should have gone higher. Nevertheless, here's a link to that post: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=58381868#p58381868

Similarly, I posted an article about how I believed Isiah Thomas to have been having a bigger impact than the box score stats indicate for the Pistons. You can find that article here: http://hoopslab.rotowire.com/post/164458238801/isiah-thomas-better-impact-than-shown-by

I'm interested in learning more about Artis Gilmore, but don't currently have the time to dig deeper myself. Would love if one of his supporters could give us more to work with on him. Why was he great? Quantitative analysis? Scouting? Comparison to other greats? Anything, really, would be great for me.

Vote: Jason Kidd
2nd: Isiah Thomas

[Purch]

Kevin Garnett should not be ahead of Karl Malone or Dirk Nowitzki. Almost every ranking by the experts on all time greatest PF's has

1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Dirk

Which I'd tend to agree with, don't see the argument for KG being better than either.

I agree that they have strong arguments for being better than KG. However, "experts" don't really mean anything. Nba experts in particular are really bad lol. You know how high some experts rank Reggie Miller

[trex_8063]

Trex, can you speak on the number of teams that Kidd played for? Call me old fashioned or whatever else but that has always concerned me about him. I *think* he'll be the top teams guy we've put in. A top 40 guy on 3 teams (though I'd almost want to call dallas 2 teams given the time between and change in ownership) +1 (knicks don't really count) just seems off. And btw I am counting dallas as 2 in my head which might be silly.

Absolutely Dallas should be counted as two teams here. Just as Cleveland is two teams for Lebron, imo.

I don't feel like Kidd is much of an outlier in this regard. Lebron has played for three teams in 14 seasons; Chris Paul (now going into his 13th season) is now on his third team. Dwight Howard (now going into his 14th season) is joining his 5th team.
Even for some guys who play mostly for one team, it's not always a spotless record. Kobe Bryant, though only ever playing for one team, forced another superstar off the team ("him or me", essentially) and also had stated intention to NOT play for the team that drafted him (or any team but the Lakers) when first coming into the league.

Kidd played for three teams in his first 13+ seasons; that just doesn't seem like an outlier occurrence. The circumstances surrounding his departure could [at times] call in some misgivings, as you and fundamentals21 have posted article links to. Those criticisms he must sustain. fwiw, I think Rick Barry (voted #34) has easily as bad "intangible" concerns, though, as do characters like Dwight Howard and Elvin Hayes (who are likely to have support soon).

[trex_8063]

Thru post #24:

Jason Kidd - 3 (trex_8063, drza, Dr Positivity)
Artis Gilmore - 3 (penbeast0, pandrade83, LABird)
Bob Cousy - 2 (euroleague, Pablo Novi)
Isiah Thomas - 1 (scabbarista)

About 24 hours or so in; will be open ~24 hours more.

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[70sFan]

For those who consider Gilmore, here is good video to understand his abilities and tendencies better during Colonels era:

Watch on YouTube

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote 1 - Walt Frazier

Vote 2 - Artis Gilmore

Reasoning: viewtopic.php?p=58257557#p58257557

[trex_8063]

wrt Bob Cousy, he's sustained some criticisms regarding strength of league (as related to size of player pool, as well as lack of integration). And they're valid concerns. I'm going to post this data/info again relating to integration, player pool, etc.

I'd also refer/recommend the book Cages to Jump Shots: Pro Basketball's Early Years by Robert W. Peterson for some info on just how rapidly the popularity of basketball was rising in the 40's and early 50's.
One poster had stated that the size of the player pool in the 60's was only slightly bigger than that of the 50's. But unless comparing 1959 to 1960 or '61, it's just not true.

Based on the data below and stuff I've read (like the title above), I'd suggest as a [likely] conservative estimate that the player pool the NBA was drawing on by 1965 was at least TWICE the size it had been in 1950 (and integration went from nil to ~45% black, while the size of league was cut in half, too).


Size of League
'47 - 11 teams
'48 - decreased to 8 teams
'49 - increased to 12 teams
'50 - increased to 17 teams with the merger
'51 - decreased to 11 teams
'52 - decreased to 10 teams
'54 - decreased to 9 teams
'56 - decreased to 8 teams
'62 - increased to 9 teams
'67 - increased to 10 teams
'68 - increased to 12 teams (ABA comes into existence)
'69 - increased to 14 teams
'71 - increased to 17 teams
'75 - increased to 18 teams
'77 - increased to 22 teams with the merger
'81 - increased to 23 teams
'89 - increased to 25 teams
'90 - increased to 27 teams
'96 - increased to 29 teams
'05 - increased to 30 teams


Integration
The first black person played in an NBA game in the '51 season (though obviously league was still almost exclusively white, pretty much throughout the pre-shotclock era).

'55 - 7.7% black
'61 - 28.0% black
'67 - 49.6% black

^^^The above is from my own count, simply tabulating every single player who played even a single game in the given season, and noting whether was white or black. I believe it crossed the 50% mark in either '68 or '69.

According to Wikipedia, the proportion of black players peaked in '95 (at 82% black). It has since declined (with the influx of [mostly white] European and other global talents), generally hovering somewhere in the 74-77% range.


Pertaining to Popularity of the Game (in the US)
Average Attendance for Franchises (50's and 60's)
Hawks - 3,588 in '55; 6,829 in '67 (increase of 90.3% in 12 years)
Celtics - 7,027 in '55; 10,409 in '67 (increase of 48.1% in 12 years)
Pistons - 3,717 in '55; 6,459 in '67 (increase 73.8% in 12 years)
Warriors - 5,878 in '55; 7,727 in '67 (increase of 31.5% in 12 years)
Lakers - 5,388 in '51; 4,494 in '56 (decrease of 16.6% in 5 years; note '56 is a mostly Mikan-less year in which they weren't very good, whereas the were a champion dynasty team in '51). Avg 11,154 in '67 (more than double over either '51 or '56: a 148.2% increase from '56 (in just 11 years), 107.0% increase over their championship '51 team).
Knicks - 8,565 in '55; 11,716 in '67 (increase of 36.8%)
Nationals (Sixers) - 5,276 in '51; 4,539 in '56 (decrease of 14.0%); but then 8,224 in '67 (81.2% increase in 11 years)
Royals - 2,478 in '55; 4,755 in '67 (91.9% increase in 12 years).


TV Contracts and Ratings
Nielson Ratings of Televised NBA games: In '61 --> 4.8. In '65 --> 6.0. In '68 --> 8.2 (proportion of viewing public increased by >70% in 7 years).

*The NBA's first TV contract was for $39,000 in 1954 (adjusted for inflation, that's about $350,000 today).
*The first nationally televised NBA Finals game was in 1956.
*In the years circa-1960, there was a precipitous rise in TV ratings (especially after 1962), gate receipts, and player salaries (wish I had a few more of the specifics written in my notes).
*ABC paid $650,000 for NBA TV rights in 1964 (adjusted for inflation, that's nearly $5.1 million today). This is one of the little factoids I found so amazing: the price on TV contracts didn't double, didn't triple but rather increased by 14-15x in a span of one decade (even accounting for inflation). I realize the huge increase in the number of households that actually own a television could be a big contributor to this, but not enough to account for that big a hike on the price-tag.
*A November 1966 issue of Advertising Age reported that average TV audience size for the early '67 season was up 26% from the previous year.
*ABC's TV contract for the '68 season was almost $1 million (~$6.9 million, adjusted for inflation......that's nearly 20x what it had been just 14 years previously).
*TV ratings on NBA games rose steadily from when ABC first got rights to the NBA (in 1964) thru 1970. William Marsano of the TV Guide predicted basketball would be "the sport of the 70's" because it's popularity had been rising so fast and steadily in the 1960's.
*ABC's TV contract in 1969 cost $3 million (adjusted for inflation that's nearly $20 million today......well over 50x what was paid 15 years earlier).
*In 1974, CBC paid $27 million for a 3-year contract ($9 million per year, adjusted for inflation is ~$40 million per year).

[Bad Gatorade]

I disagree that Pierce shows equal defensive capacity. He was certainly a capable defender, but never elite (as Kidd was several years of his career). I don't feel Pierce as equal to Kidd defensively is reflected anywhere, either. Although I think individual DRtg and DBPM are rotten as far as their accuracy in assessing individual defensive: Kidd's career DRtg is 102 (Pierce's is 103), Kidd's career DBPM is 1.8 (Pierce's is 0.5).

Then we have honors: Kidd was NINE times All-Defensive Team (four of those 1st team), Pierce I don't believe had any (right or wrong). Kidd also made at least a couple appearances in the DPOY vote (I don't believe Pierce ever did).

Then there's DRAPM, which is close, though again favors Kidd. Avg DRAPM from '99-'10 for Kidd is +1.265 vs. +0.833 for Pierce.
And lastly there's my eye-test, which [for me] suggests the same thing that EVERYTHING else [as noted above] appears to be telling me: that Pierce was respectable/good defensively, but Kidd was excellent.

I think it's worth mentioning that with regards to DBPM and DRAPM, there are the following caveats -

a) Kidd has one of the highest sqrt(rebound * assist) terms out there, and this term has a HUGE bearing on DBPM. Without getting too technical, one should look at how Westbrook's DBPM ranked second in the league last year, primarily based off this interaction.

b) Kidd might win an "averaged" RAPM, but it's also worth mentioning that in the larger RAPM samples that we have -

02-11 (although I dislike this sample): Pierce wins DRAPM 1.6 to 0.7
06-11: Kidd wins 2.1 to 1.2
08-11: Pierce wins 2.5 to 1.2 (interestingly enough, these are two of the biggest differences I see between the 06-11 and 08-11 samples)
15 year RAPM: Pierce wins 1.83 to 1.30
14 year RAPM: Pierce wins 2.2 to 1.5

Not saying that either style of RAPM is undoubtedly superior, but rather that not all DRAPM samples favour Kidd.

c) BPM was actually regressed off the 14 year RAPM sample, where even though Kidd won comfortably in BPM (2.1 to 0.5), Pierce won the 14 year battle (2.2 to 1.5). This automatically throws a caveat in any box score related comparison (DBPM, DRtg etc) between the two. And although you've already acknowledged the ineptitude of the box score for assessing defence, it demonstrates these guys as a prime example - the box score is inclined to overrate Kidd (or RAPM underrates him), and the converse seems true for Pierce.

FWIW, I could literally see these guys grabbing the next 2 votes - I tend to view the guys as rather similar on both ends of the court in terms of impact, although I'd state that Pierce is probably better offensively for as SF than Kidd is for a PG, and the converse being true for defence. That's how I've generally felt about these guys during the course of their careers, and it seems to hold fairly true through the data at a cursory glance.

Just a bit of food for thought.

[trex_8063]

I disagree that Pierce shows equal defensive capacity. He was certainly a capable defender, but never elite (as Kidd was several years of his career). I don't feel Pierce as equal to Kidd defensively is reflected anywhere, either. Although I think individual DRtg and DBPM are rotten as far as their accuracy in assessing individual defense: Kidd's career DRtg is 102 (Pierce's is 103), Kidd's career DBPM is 1.8 (Pierce's is 0.5).

Then we have honors: Kidd was NINE times All-Defensive Team (four of those 1st team), Pierce I don't believe had any (right or wrong). Kidd also made at least a couple appearances in the DPOY vote (I don't believe Pierce ever did).

Then there's DRAPM, which is close, though again favors Kidd. Avg DRAPM from '99-'10 for Kidd is +1.265 vs. +0.833 for Pierce.
And lastly there's my eye-test, which [for me] suggests the same thing that EVERYTHING else [as noted above] appears to be telling me: that Pierce was respectable/good defensively, but Kidd was excellent.

I think it's worth mentioning that with regards to DBPM and DRAPM, there are the following caveats -

a) Kidd has one of the highest sqrt(rebound * assist) terms out there, and this term has a HUGE bearing on DBPM. Without getting too technical, one should look at how Westbrook's DBPM ranked second in the league last year, primarily based off this interaction.

I'd mentioned (see underlined portion above) I'm not fond of DBPM (or DRtg) as an accurate measure of individual defense (at least not for perimeter players; does OK for rim-protecting bigs). Just included it for completeness.

b) Kidd might win an "averaged" RAPM, but it's also worth mentioning that in the larger RAPM samples that we have -

02-11 (although I dislike this sample): Pierce wins DRAPM 1.6 to 0.7
06-11: Kidd wins 2.1 to 1.2
08-11: Pierce wins 2.5 to 1.2 (interestingly enough, these are two of the biggest differences I see between the 06-11 and 08-11 samples)
15 year RAPM: Pierce wins 1.83 to 1.30
14 year RAPM: Pierce wins 2.2 to 1.5

Not saying that either style of RAPM is undoubtedly superior, but rather that not all DRAPM samples favour Kidd.

This must be an issue of source; I was using J.E.'s numbers for '01-'10 (and they reflect something different than what you're posting).

c) BPM was actually regressed off the 14 year RAPM sample, where even though Kidd won comfortably in BPM (2.1 to 0.5), Pierce won the 14 year battle (2.2 to 1.5). This automatically throws a caveat in any box score related comparison (DBPM, DRtg etc) between the two. And although you've already acknowledged the ineptitude of the box score for assessing defence, it demonstrates these guys as a prime example - the box score is inclined to overrate Kidd (or RAPM underrates him), and the converse seems true for Pierce.

FWIW, I could literally see these guys grabbing the next 2 votes - I tend to view the guys as rather similar on both ends of the court in terms of impact, although I'd state that Pierce is probably better offensively for as SF than Kidd is for a PG, and the converse being true for defence. That's how I've generally felt about these guys during the course of their careers, and it seems to hold fairly true through the data at a cursory glance.

Just a bit of food for thought.

I'm not quite understanding what you're saying in the first paragraph or where the BPM numbers you've stated come from (they don't appear to jive with those listed on bbref).

That said, I'd not be particularly disappointed if they took the next two spots either. Like I said: similar-tiered players as far as I'm concerned, with a marginal longevity edge to Kidd (which probably accounts for the majority of the small separation between the two on my list).

[Bad Gatorade]

I'd mentioned (see underlined portion above) I'm not fond of DBPM (or DRtg) as an accurate measure of individual defense (at least not for perimeter players; does OK for rim-protecting bigs). Just included it for completeness.

This must be an issue of source; I was using J.E.'s numbers for '01-'10 (and they reflect something different than what you're posting).

I'm not quite understanding what you're saying in the first paragraph or where the BPM numbers you've stated come from (they don't appear to jive with those listed on bbref).

That said, I'd not be particularly disappointed if they took the next two spots either. Like I said: similar-tiered players as far as I'm concerned, with a marginal longevity edge to Kidd (which probably accounts for the majority of the small separation between the two on my list).

1. Oh yeah, I don't doubt that you're sharp enough to look well, well past the box score (you're one of the most thorough people on here). More so throwing in the analysis for completeness than anything else. Some people like to place stock in DBPM/DRTG, and I'm basically saying that between these two players, using box score stats to compare their defence is going to boost one and marginalise the other unfairly in this scenario.

Which numbers are you using? My large scale RAPM numbers are from the Google RAPM website, and a few tidbits that JE has posted on APBRmetrics.

The RAPM numbers I've shown are akin to running RAPM (with aging adjustments and what not) across the time period - i.e. I'm not averaging the year by year RAPM, but rather, I'm using samples that were initially formulated across a longer period of time.

BPM was literally taken from Basketball-Reference just then. I only took 01-14 in order to compare it to BPM (which is an attempt to regress the box score on the 01-14 RAPM sample). So I'd hazard a guess that we took the same numbers, but using different samples.

But yeah, in general, I think these guys are very similarly matched, both in terms of player quality and in terms of longevity.

[JordansBulls]

1st Vote: Isiah Thomas (Led organization that never won to back to back titles and to 3 finals in a row. Also had to deal with 3 of the greatest prime players in NBA History and won series against them with HCA)

2nd Vote: Dominique Wilkins.

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Artis Gilmore
Alt: Reggie Miller

I really admire the hell out of Gilmore. I do think he didn't have the ideal temperament for an MVP level talent, but aside from the fact that he was otherwise an MVP level talent and then some, the thing is that his "flaw" was something that drove him toward efficient play at a time when a lot of guys were just very inefficient.

You will find very few centers, or players at all, who can claim to have had a legit argument for best player in the world and who had an extreme longevity which saw them remain valuable the whole time.

[pandrade83]

I just did some H2H finders on Gilmore vs. other top-centers and things look pretty good for Gilmore.


Vs. Daniels:
outscored him 24-16 ppg in reg season; in playoffs for games where we have full box scores did 24-17-3.5 blk vs. 16-13-1.9 blk and also had much better TS (60% to 45%)

vs. Cowens - we know he outscored him 21 ppg to 19 ppg. In 3 games with rebound data, Cowens got the best of him. We know Cowens fouled out multiple times and that in games with shooting data, Gilmore did better there as well as blocks.



vs. Walton: Walton kicked his ass in '77 & '78; Gilmore got the best of him in almost every encounter after that.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Artis+Gilmore&player_id1_select=Artis+Gilmore&player_id1=gilmoar01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Bill+Walton&player_id2_select=Bill+Walton&player_id2=waltobi01&idx=players

vs. Kareem:

Kareem generally got his, but Gilmore did as well and typically beat Kareem up on the boards where we have data.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Artis+Gilmore&player_id1_select=Artis+Gilmore&player_id1=gilmoar01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kareem+Abdul-Jabbar&player_id2_select=Kareem+Abdul-Jabbar&player_id2=abdulka01&idx=players

These 70's box scores against McAdoo look really strong.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Artis+Gilmore&player_id1_select=Artis+Gilmore&player_id1=gilmoar01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Bob+McAdoo&player_id2_select=Bob+McAdoo&player_id2=mcadobo01&idx=players

Wes Unseld wasn't a huge offensive threat, but there are games where he got nothing against Gilmore and they seem to have been neck & neck on the boards.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Artis+Gilmore&player_id1_select=Artis+Gilmore&player_id1=gilmoar01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Wes+Unseld&player_id2_select=Wes+Unseld&player_id2=unselwe01&idx=players

Gilmore seems to have done pretty well against Lanier.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Artis+Gilmore&player_id1_select=Artis+Gilmore&player_id1=gilmoar01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Bob+Lanier&player_id2_select=Bob+Lanier&player_id2=laniebo01&idx=players

[trex_8063]

Which numbers are you using? My large scale RAPM numbers are from the Google RAPM website, and a few tidbits that JE has posted on APBRmetrics.

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2001-npi-rapm

That's the site I was using for '01-'10 in the data I presented (I was told those numbers are from Jeremias Engelmann).

When you'd said BPM is based on a 14-year RAPM, I thought you meant the BPM total itself. For clarity to anyone reading---and if I've got it right---BPM is based exclusively on the box (with a team adjustment), and the 14-year RAPM is used to inform the offensive/defensive splits (which I admit I'd forgotten), though it's constructed so that the overall BPM equals the one derived from the box stats.

I guess I got confused by the DBPM numbers you posted (where Kidd held a 2.1 to 0.5 advantage for the sample of years you selected) for the simplest of reasons: you referred to them as BPM (I assumed you were referring to overall BPM).

Can you provide a link for this 14-year ('01-'14) RAPM sample you referred to (the one Pierce holds the edge in)? On the site I linked above, Kidd’s avg DRAPM from ‘97-’14 is +0.93 to +0.89 for Pierce, fwiw.

And to be fair when looking at either of those year samples, it’s worth noting that includes Kidd’s twilight years, but not Pierce’s.



btw, are you voting in this anymore?

[pandrade83]

Which numbers are you using? My large scale RAPM numbers are from the Google RAPM website, and a few tidbits that JE has posted on APBRmetrics.

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2001-npi-rapm

That's the site I was using for '01-'10 in the data I presented (I was told those numbers are from Jeremias Engelmann).

When you'd said BPM is based on a 14-year RAPM, I thought you meant the BPM total itself. For clarity to anyone reading---and if I've got it right---BPM is based exclusively on the box (with a team adjustment), and the 14-year RAPM is used to inform the offensive/defensive splits (which I admit I'd forgotten), though it's constructed so that the overall BPM equals the one derived from the box stats.

I guess I got confused by the DBPM numbers you posted (where Kidd held a 2.1 to 0.5 advantage for the sample of years you selected) for the simplest of reasons: you referred to them as BPM (I assumed you were referring to overall BPM).

Can you provide a link for this 14-year ('01-'14) RAPM sample you referred to (the one Pierce holds the edge in)? On the site I linked above, Kidd’s avg DRAPM from ‘97-’14 is +0.93 to +0.89 for Pierce, fwiw.

And to be fair when looking at either of those year samples, it’s worth noting that includes Kidd’s twilight years, but not Pierce’s.



btw, are you voting in this anymore?

Thanks for sharing. I've gone ahead & bookmarked his. I was using the Shut up & Jam website, but this is a nice resource as well!

[trex_8063]

Which numbers are you using? My large scale RAPM numbers are from the Google RAPM website, and a few tidbits that JE has posted on APBRmetrics.

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2001-npi-rapm

That's the site I was using for '01-'10 in the data I presented (I was told those numbers are from Jeremias Engelmann).

When you'd said BPM is based on a 14-year RAPM, I thought you meant the BPM total itself. For clarity to anyone reading---and if I've got it right---BPM is based exclusively on the box (with a team adjustment), and the 14-year RAPM is used to inform the offensive/defensive splits (which I admit I'd forgotten), though it's constructed so that the overall BPM equals the one derived from the box stats.

I guess I got confused by the DBPM numbers you posted (where Kidd held a 2.1 to 0.5 advantage for the sample of years you selected) for the simplest of reasons: you referred to them as BPM (I assumed you were referring to overall BPM).

Can you provide a link for this 14-year ('01-'14) RAPM sample you referred to (the one Pierce holds the edge in)? On the site I linked above, Kidd’s avg DRAPM from ‘97-’14 is +0.93 to +0.89 for Pierce, fwiw.

And to be fair when looking at either of those year samples, it’s worth noting that includes Kidd’s twilight years, but not Pierce’s.



btw, are you voting in this anymore?

Thanks for sharing. I've gone ahead & bookmarked his. I was using the Shut up & Jam website, but this is a nice resource as well!

I've used Shutupandjam for some of my personal RAPM sheets too. They generally align fairly close to JE's datasets (for most years anyway); I just decided to use JE's numbers here as they're the ones most people appear to utilize.

There used to be an excellent site for RAPM and four factors data for '08-'14; was called Got Buckets? But I guess they stopped paying the rent about a year or so ago, as that site has disappeared.

[euroleague]

wrt Bob Cousy, he's sustained some criticisms regarding strength of league (as related to size of player pool, as well as lack of integration). And they're valid concerns. I'm going to post this data/info again relating to integration, player pool, etc.

I'd also refer/recommend the book Cages to Jump Shots: Pro Basketball's Early Years by Robert W. Peterson for some info on just how rapidly the popularity of basketball was rising in the 40's and early 50's.
One poster had stated that the size of the player pool in the 60's was only slightly bigger than that of the 50's. But unless comparing 1959 to 1960 or '61, it's just not true.

In 1962, Russell/Wilt/Oscar/Baylor were all in their peaks.

These players continued to be dominant 5 years later, with absolutely no challengers to their heights at their peak. Even past their primes, they were the elite in the NBA. But, most of them joined the NBA in the 50s.

Thus, we can infer that basketball wasn't changing incredibly rapidly in terms of player pool. The reason player pools change is because of TV contracts and popularity - and that change takes almost 15 years to go into effect, as kids and future NBA players need to start practicing very early for the exposure to be meaningful. So, the boom in popularity would effect the late 70s.

Late 70s stars: Larry Bird, Magic, Moses, Dr J. These are players who came from a larger pool.

The 80s had increased exposure because of them. But again, the increase in league player pool wasn't apparent until the late 90s, when KG/Nash/Kobe/Dirk/VC/TMac/Kidd/etc. joined the league.

15 years after space jam - 2010s - the exposure to children gave rise to "unicorns". Players who played basketball since they were young, and were able to maintain their ball-handling with increased growth. the increase in depth at Guard and Forward that can handle the ball and shoot is quite noticeable in ways it wasn't in the 2000s, because of their constant access to NBA games that most kids before Space Jam weren't as excited for.

Thus, in 12 year spans there may be significant player pool increase - but not in single digit year counts between 1956 and 1962.

An influx of talented players in the late 50s makes the early 50s era look bad, but these players brought new techniques that are the source of these players looking bad - not the increased player pool. Cousy was the first one to bring new techniques into the NBA with his special passing.Baylor's acrobatics at the rim. Russell's defense. Wilt's athleticism. Oscar's all-around play and rebounding at point. These are things the league never saw before, and they became essential parts of the league. Just like Cousy's playmaking. However, Cousy was in an era before them and they saw his skills and saw him develop the game in a new direction, and learned from him. If Cousy got to learn from all these players, it would be different. But, Cousy's passing and creativity effected the league far more than these players, and he shouldn't be ranked so low.

[Lou Fan]

Kidd is the clear choice for me here.
He's an elite defender and rebounder at his position and obviously an ATG player/passer on the fastbreak. He took the Nets to back to back Finals while leading the team in points, assists, and steals. The big drawback for Kidd is his lack of a pull up jumper. He just never learned how to score off the dribble, except layups/dunks, and that really hurt his teams in the halfcourt. 87% of his 3s were assisted on which clearly shows he wasn't creating his own jumpers. I do value his championship as a starter on the Mavs. His very solid post prime seasons bump his case. His relatively high turnover numbers don't really bug me as they were a necessary byproduct of his risky mindset that made him so brilliant as a passer. One of the greatest defensive/rebounding guards of all-time and all those boards where great break starters where J-Kidd was at his best. He had some leadership issues early on but was considered a great leader for the majority of his career. drza had a great post talking about Kidd's impact a few posts back read that for more.
I have no idea what to do with my alt. I hadn't really thought past Kidd because I didn't GP was gonna get in so soon. I'm thinking Gilmore, Gervin, Isiah, D12, Frazier and T-Mac are the next few I'll support in no particular order.
For now
1st Vote: Kidd
2nd Vote: Ice Man

[dhsilv2]

Trex, can you speak on the number of teams that Kidd played for? Call me old fashioned or whatever else but that has always concerned me about him. I *think* he'll be the top teams guy we've put in. A top 40 guy on 3 teams (though I'd almost want to call dallas 2 teams given the time between and change in ownership) +1 (knicks don't really count) just seems off. And btw I am counting dallas as 2 in my head which might be silly.

Absolutely Dallas should be counted as two teams here. Just as Cleveland is two teams for Lebron, imo.

I don't feel like Kidd is much of an outlier in this regard. Lebron has played for three teams in 14 seasons; Chris Paul (now going into his 13th season) is now on his third team. Dwight Howard (now going into his 14th season) is joining his 5th team.
Even for some guys who play mostly for one team, it's not always a spotless record. Kobe Bryant, though only ever playing for one team, forced another superstar off the team ("him or me", essentially) and also had stated intention to NOT play for the team that drafted him (or any team but the Lakers) when first coming into the league.

Kidd played for three teams in his first 13+ seasons; that just doesn't seem like an outlier occurrence. The circumstances surrounding his departure could [at times] call in some misgivings, as you and fundamentals21 have posted article links to. Those criticisms he must sustain. fwiw, I think Rick Barry (voted #34) has easily as bad "intangible" concerns, though, as do characters like Dwight Howard and Elvin Hayes (who are likely to have support soon).

I can't really see how the cavs are two teams for lebron. The same owner was there both times, and the time lag was tiny. More importantly is that all the moves were Lebron's choice. Kidd was traded which is very different.

Barry's peak imo was night and day better is the difference there, otherwise he might have been higher.