Winsome Gerbil wrote:As I've mentioned with Walt. Impressively well rounded game, but
1) not his team's clear #1
2) short career
And in particular a huge question has to be raised. Apart from nostalgia, why would Walt Frazier end up ranked above Russell Westbrook?:
WFrazier career (12yrs): 37.5min 18.9pts (.542TS%) 5.9reb 6.1ast 19.1PER
Westbrook career (8yrs): 34.1min 22.7pts (.533TS%) 6.2reb 7.9ast 23.8PER
WFrazier career (12yrs): 15581pts 4830reb 5040ast 7x All Star, 6x All NBA (4/2), 7x All Defense
Westbrook career (8yrs): 15156pts 4149reb 5293ast 6x All Star, 6x All-NBA (2/4/0), 2x Scoring Champ, 1x MVP
Westbrook has already caught up to Walt Frazier's entire career of accolades and statistics, he's obviously peaked much higher, and he's still sitting here in mid career with only about 2 seasons less worth of games (668 to 825). How much more proof would we need? do we pedantically need Westbrook to actually play in his 826th game before we suddenly get a lightbulb over our heads and go, ohhhh, nowwwwww he's better?
In any case, as usual I believe 2 guys had better overall careers than either, although Westbrook should be passing them soon too:
#38 Allen Iverson
#39 Bob Cousy
Thoughts on the two parts of this post I highlighted in red...
Frazier might not have been HANDS DOWN the #1 on the Championship team in 1970, that was a 1A vs. 1B situation with Reed. I personally believe that Frazier was already the better player by this point, but it's a toss-up.
If you combine Playoffs + Regular Season in 1970, Frazier had 17.8 Win Shares vs. Reed's 17.2 Win Shares.
I'd go Frazier over Reed in 1970, but it's a tough call. But it gets easier in the following years. Using the same Playoffs + Regular Season method for Win Shares...
1971: Frazier (18.1 WS) -- Reed (11.3 WS) ----- 52 Wins (lost in ECF)
1972: Frazier (17.8 WS) -- Reed (0.6 WS) ------- 48 Wins (lost in Finals)
1973: Frazier (16.0 WS) -- Reed (6.8 WS) ------- 57 Wins (CHAMPIONSHIP)
By 1971, Frazier was already the best player on the team. And yet Willis Reed finished 4th in the MVP voting while FRAZIER DIDN'T RECEIVE A SINGLE VOTE. The "Frazier was too black" aspect has been mentioned before, but I don't think people realize to what extent it impacted the Frazier's reputation. This was a black man in New York City in the early 70s living in a luxurious apartment and living an extravagant lifestyle. He literally dressed like a Pimp, and still does to this day. But ok, let's say you want to give Reed the title of #1 on the Knicks in 1971.
In 1972, Reed plays 11 games... Frazier puts the team on his back and carries them to the Finals. That was a great team, but Frazier
WAS THE CLEAR #1. He leads them to an upset of a 56 win Celtics team (led by Havlicek, Cowens, Jojo White), leading the Knicks in scoring in the series with 24 PPG (and almost definitely leading in APG as well).
The Knicks lose to a MONSTER 69-win Lakers team in the Finals, but Walt goes down swinging. He drops 23/8/8 on a .585 FG%! along with all-world defense, helping keep the great Jerry West to 20 PPG and a .325 FG% in the series. THERE IS NO QUESTION WHO THE MAN ON THE 1972 KNICKS WAS.
In 1973, Reed comes back but is simply not the same player. He averages 11/7 in the regular season and 13/8 in the playoffs. He isn't on any All-League teams and he isn't even invited to the All-Star game. Frazier drops 21/7/6 in the regular season and 22/7/6 in the playoffs, making the All-NBA 2nd team and All-Defensive team while finishing 7th in the MVP vote.
So by this point, it is absolutely Walt Frazier's team. Reed stepped up in the Finals and was handed the Finals MVP after the Knicks beat the Lakers in 5. Reed averaged 16/9/2 on .493 FG% while Frazier averaged 17/6/5 on a .479 FG%. But Reed only averaged 30 MPG in the series whereas Frazier averaged 46 MPG. Even though Frazier didn't have a monster box-score series, he was clearly the best player on the floor for the Knicks. Not to mention that in the previous series,
Frazier once again DEMOLISHES a 68-win Celtics team to an upset in 7 games (including winning G7 in Boston which was shocking at the time). Frazier dropped 26/7/6 in that series on a .519 FG% (.579 TS%) along with the usual All-NBA level D. Reed dropped 10/6 on a .434 FG% (.459 TS%) in this series.When the Knicks won in 1970, it's arguable who "the man" on the team was. But in the following years, it's OBVIOUS who "the man" on the team is. In 1973 when the Knicks win their 2nd title, Reed wins Finals MVP... but in 1973 it isn't even a contest as to who as the #1 player on the team. Frazier was hands-down the best player on the 1973 Championship team. And his 1972 run is probably the most impressive of all, where he is the hands down best player on a team that upsets it's way to the Finals without Willis Reed.
Walt Frazier was a terror of a player on both sides of the ball in his prime.
You say that "Westbrook has obviously peaked higher", but I don't see it. The monster 2017 triple double MVP campaign was special, but I still don't think it's a lock that Westbrook is a Top 5 player in the league. I'd have him at 5 at best behind LeBron/Curry/Durant/Kawhi. Walt Frazier on the other hand was a Top 5 player pretty much every year from 1970-73.
I'd take '72/'73 Frazier over 2017 Westbrook, he's simply a more complete player. A more efficient scorer and better defender, who made 2 straight Finals and wins 1 while being the clearcut best player on his team. He had a couple of epic series in that 2 year stretch, in the 4 series he played against Havlicek and West these 2 years... he was the best player on the floor every time and usually by a large margin. What he did to the Celtics in these 2 years was scary.
Walt Frazier was a legendary player. He lacks insane box-score stats, MVP love from the voters, and longevity. But the advanced metrics, eye-test, and team results from his prime paints a picture of a dominant 2-way guard. IMO, he should've been voted in by now.
