Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever?

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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#21 » by lolathon234 » Fri Sep 8, 2017 9:04 pm

Durant will almost certainly end up #1 after 2020. He's never lost a game(25-0), single handedly won the 2010 FIBA world championship, was arguably the best player on the 2012 team, and won MVP of the 2016 Olympics. And despite playing in 2 fewer Olympics than Carmelo, he only trails him by 25 points for the all time lead in team USA basketball. If you include FIBA(2006 for Melo, 2010 for Durant), he is the all time leading scorer in team USA basketball
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#22 » by Mirotic12 » Sat Sep 9, 2017 8:21 am

Objectively speaking, it's between guys like Dragan Kicanovic, Drazen Dalipagic, Sergei Belov, Vladimir Tkacehcnko, or Kresimir Cosic, maybe Janis Krumins or Anatoly Myshkin, Gennadi Volnov.

No player of recent years can match what those leaders of USSR and Yugoslavia did back in the day. Gasol's and Spain's FIBA resume also seems small by comparison. Especially if you take the real leaders of those teams,

Belov
Krumins
Dalipagic
Cosic
Tkachencko
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#23 » by Mirotic12 » Sat Sep 9, 2017 8:29 am

Tetlak wrote:I think he kind of has to be. He's beaten the US. He has so many accolades. As mentioned in the original post, he's the all time leading scorer.


I don't recall him ever beating the US.

Also, he's not the all time FIBA scorer. He's the leader of EuroBasket.

All time leading FIBA scorers, are I believe,

1. Oscar Schmidt
2. Panagiotis Giannakis
3. Nikos Galis
4. Andrew Gaze

lolathon234 wrote:Durant will almost certainly end up #1 after 2020. He's never lost a game(25-0), single handedly won the 2010 FIBA world championship, was arguably the best player on the 2012 team, and won MVP of the 2016 Olympics. And despite playing in 2 fewer Olympics than Carmelo, he only trails him by 25 points for the all time lead in team USA basketball. If you include FIBA(2006 for Melo, 2010 for Durant), he is the all time leading scorer in team USA basketball


The Olympics does not have an MVP award. So he couldn't have won Olympics MVP.
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#24 » by Genjuro » Sat Sep 9, 2017 12:00 pm

lolathon234 wrote:Durant will almost certainly end up #1 after 2020. He's never lost a game(25-0), single handedly won the 2010 FIBA world championship, was arguably the best player on the 2012 team, and won MVP of the 2016 Olympics. And despite playing in 2 fewer Olympics than Carmelo, he only trails him by 25 points for the all time lead in team USA basketball. If you include FIBA(2006 for Melo, 2010 for Durant), he is the all time leading scorer in team USA basketball

IMO he delivered the all-time best performance in a FIBA championship back in 2010.

The thing for US players is that the leadership is often very spread, so you don't have that feeling of a guy carrying a team.

Mirotic12 wrote:Objectively speaking, it's between guys like Dragan Kicanovic, Drazen Dalipagic, Sergei Belov, Vladimir Tkacehcnko, or Kresimir Cosic, maybe Janis Krumins or Anatoly Myshkin, Gennadi Volnov.

No player of recent years can match what those leaders of USSR and Yugoslavia did back in the day. Gasol's and Spain's FIBA resume also seems small by comparison. Especially if you take the real leaders of those teams,

Belov
Krumins
Dalipagic
Cosic
Tkachencko

Objectively... :lol:

The problem with those Yugo and USSR teams is the lack of opposition. The USA teams playing at the WC were just awful given the selection system they were using back then, while the Olympic versions were usually dominant. You take 1976, with the Yugoslavian 70s squad at full strength, with an unreal roster featuring Cosic, Kicanovic, Dalipagic, Delibasic, Slavnic or Jerkov, and they get swept by college players by 20 points both times they played. USA's brightest star was Adrian Dantley, and the arguably most famous guys after him, Mitch Kupchak and Ernie Grunfeld, are not because of their playing abilities. Otherwise, the field these two European juggernauts were facing was really weak.

There are many angles to look into this thing, and IMO Pau Gasol should be taken into account almost every way you look at it. Of course his case would even significantly stronger if he had an Olympic gold and Spain had beaten USA in a competitive game.
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#25 » by Genjuro » Sat Sep 9, 2017 12:51 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:All time leading FIBA scorers, are I believe,

1. Oscar Schmidt
2. Panagiotis Giannakis
3. Nikos Galis
4. Andrew Gaze

You never fail to deliver.

Pau Gasol, for example, has more points scored than Giannakis at either the Eurobasket, World Championship or Olympics final tournaments. The Spaniard adds for 2,216 points combined at those three events while the Greek amounts to only 1,270 points. Even adding the Olympic qualifying tournaments you would only manage to get to 1,689 points. The same goes for Gallis.
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#26 » by yannisk » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:59 pm

There are players with more accolades. Cosic for example (and others from former USSR and Yugoslavia). They have won more medals even if you consider their golds in Olympics and WCs as silver (accounting for USA). But they have played in the so distant past I would prefer not to include in the conversation.

Then you have players with great stats (like Gallis, Dirk or Schmidt) But they have not won anything close to Gasol.

Then you have players like Divac who have won many medals (more I think) but probably did not display as much dominance.

So taking account medals, individual performance but giving more emphasis to players of the modern era, he is probably the most influential FIBA player.

P.S I consider Schmidt very overrated in these discussions. He got a big exposure to the American public after the 1987 Panamerican games but he was never in the class of Petrovic or Sabonis i.e who were contemporaries
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#27 » by LuDux1 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:39 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:Objectively speaking, it's between guys like Dragan Kicanovic, Drazen Dalipagic, Sergei Belov, Vladimir Tkacehcnko, or Kresimir Cosic, maybe Janis Krumins or Anatoly Myshkin, Gennadi Volnov.

No player of recent years can match what those leaders of USSR and Yugoslavia did back in the day. Gasol's and Spain's FIBA resume also seems small by comparison. Especially if you take the real leaders of those teams,

Belov
Krumins
Dalipagic
Cosic
Tkachencko


Total points in final EC WC OG tournaments plus 1984 Olympic qualifications. (pkayers)
S.Belov 1515
M.Paulauskas 1157
V.Thachenko 952
G.Volnov 908
A.Myshkin 837
V.Valters 820
A.Sabonis 799
S.Tarakanov 697
A.Bellosteny 687
A.Salnikov 681

PPG
R.Marciulionis 18.0
A.Sabonis 15.7
V.Valters 14.1
M.Paulauskas 13.6
R.Kurtinaitis 13.6
S.Belov 13.1
S.Butautas 13.0
O.Korkia 13.0
A.Myshkin 12.1
V.Tkachenko 12.1

Topscoriness (Marciulionis played in 3 tournaments, was #1 in points scored twice and #2 once, (1+1+2)/3 = 1.3)
S.Marciulionis 1.3 (3 tournaments)
M.Paulauskas 1.5 (10)
O.Korkia 2.0 (5)
G.Silins 2.0 (2)
E.Alekseev 2.0 (1)
A.Sabonis 2.9 (7)
S.Belov 3.1 (15)
S.Butautas 3.3 (4)
V.Valters 3.3 (7)
A.Polivoda 3.3 (6)
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#28 » by Mirotic12 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:38 pm

Genjuro wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:All time leading FIBA scorers, are I believe,

1. Oscar Schmidt
2. Panagiotis Giannakis
3. Nikos Galis
4. Andrew Gaze

You never fail to deliver.

Pau Gasol, for example, has more points scored than Giannakis at either the Eurobasket, World Championship or Olympics final tournaments. The Spaniard adds for 2,216 points combined at those three events while the Greek amounts to only 1,270 points. Even adding the Olympic qualifying tournaments you would only manage to get to 1,689 points. The same goes for Gallis.


Giannakis and Galis both scored over 5,000 points with Greek senior national team. That is a fact.

Giannakis is the highest scorer of FIBA in European national team history. That is a fact.

Giannakis is 2nd all-time scorer in FIBA senior national play, after Schmidt. That is a fact.

Both scored more career senior national teams points than Pau Gasol. That is a fact.

If you have an issue with facts, that is your problem, not mine.

So the rest of the forum knows the truth, Greek federation's official statistics, points scored in senior national team;

http://basket.gr/statistika/summary/stats-men

It says right there, Giannakis at 5,301 points just with the senior national team. And yes, it's 1st all time in Europe, and 2nd all time in FIBA World after Schmidt.

And yes, it is more than Gasol scored.

yannisk wrote:There are players with more accolades. Cosic for example (and others from former USSR and Yugoslavia). They have won more medals even if you consider their golds in Olympics and WCs as silver (accounting for USA). But they have played in the so distant past I would prefer not to include in the conversation.

Then you have players with great stats (like Gallis, Dirk or Schmidt) But they have not won anything close to Gasol.

Then you have players like Divac who have won many medals (more I think) but probably did not display as much dominance.

So taking account medals, individual performance but giving more emphasis to players of the modern era, he is probably the most influential FIBA player.

P.S I consider Schmidt very overrated in these discussions. He got a big exposure to the American public after the 1987 Panamerican games but he was never in the class of Petrovic or Sabonis i.e who were contemporaries


You can't discount what Cosic and Belov did though. They won so much for so long, and were always the best players also. So if we simply "discount them", then NBA should also discount any players from before the 1980s in a similar way.
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#29 » by sorokii » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:59 pm

Yes, he is. He has been the most dominant player in FIBA tournaments since 2004. That´s a lot of time.
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#30 » by Genjuro » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:24 am

Mirotic12 wrote:
Genjuro wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:All time leading FIBA scorers, are I believe,

1. Oscar Schmidt
2. Panagiotis Giannakis
3. Nikos Galis
4. Andrew Gaze

You never fail to deliver.

Pau Gasol, for example, has more points scored than Giannakis at either the Eurobasket, World Championship or Olympics final tournaments. The Spaniard adds for 2,216 points combined at those three events while the Greek amounts to only 1,270 points. Even adding the Olympic qualifying tournaments you would only manage to get to 1,689 points. The same goes for Gallis.


Giannakis and Galis both scored over 5,000 points with Greek senior national team. That is a fact.

Giannakis is the highest scorer of FIBA in European national team history. That is a fact.

Giannakis is 2nd all-time scorer in FIBA senior national play, after Schmidt. That is a fact.

Both scored more career senior national teams points than Pau Gasol. That is a fact.

If you have an issue with facts, that is your problem, not mine.

So the rest of the forum knows the truth, Greek federation's official statistics, points scored in senior national team;

http://basket.gr/statistika/summary/stats-men

It says right there, Giannakis at 5,301 points just with the senior national team. And yes, it's 1st all time in Europe, and 2nd all time in FIBA World after Schmidt.

And yes, it is more than Gasol scored.

Holy ****, are they taking into account pick-up games? That looks like Greece's accounting as they joined the Euro.

Jokes aside, most of those points were scored in purely crappy games. That might look nice for stats but hardly amounts to anything if we're talking about real top-notch achievements.
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#31 » by Mirotic12 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:33 am

Genjuro wrote:Holy ****, are they taking into account pick-up games? That looks like Greece's accounting as they joined the Euro.

Jokes aside, most of those points were scored in purely crappy games. That might look nice for stats but hardly amounts to anything if we're talking about real top-notch achievements.


I hate to break it you, but every single national team, federation, and FIBA officially counts the stats that way. That's how it has always been. You should know that, with the amount of international basketball you claim to watch.
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#32 » by SportsGuy8 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:42 am

Gasol, Durant and Dirk are all up there among the best FIBA players, they're all true FIBA BEASTS.

Then you have players like Sabonis and Drazen. But if you mention Drazen, you also need to mention Dalipagic. With Dalipagic, several others from the past come in to the picture ... It's not an easy debate at all. Cosic, Tkachenko, Krumins, Belov ... were all good, but they simply weren't at this level.

I do think that players like Gasol, Durant, Sabonis and Dirk are ahead of the rest due to their physical abilities.
Genjuro wrote:You take 1976, with the Yugoslavian 70s squad at full strength, with an unreal roster featuring Cosic, Kicanovic, Dalipagic, Delibasic, Slavnic or Jerkov, and they get swept by college players by 20 points both times they played. USA's brightest star was Adrian Dantley, and the arguably most famous guys after him, Mitch Kupchak and Ernie Grunfeld, are not because of their playing abilities.

This just illustrates how much European basketball has progressed since. I know there's lots of Euro-nostalgists out there who won't agree, but the gap truly used to be much bigger than it is nowadays. European basketball was simply played on a lower level back then.

We really need to take the achievements from the past with a grain of salt, the same goes for NBA players. Every sport is constantly evolving, with players getting better, faster, stronger and even MORE SKILLED! Yes, even more skilled. The only thing that's lacking a bit lately is team-play, but even that's starting to improve again.
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#33 » by SportsGuy8 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:53 am

Mirotic12 wrote:
Genjuro wrote:Holy ****, are they taking into account pick-up games? That looks like Greece's accounting as they joined the Euro.

Jokes aside, most of those points were scored in purely crappy games. That might look nice for stats but hardly amounts to anything if we're talking about real top-notch achievements.


I hate to break it you, but every single national team, federation, and FIBA officially counts the stats that way. That's how it has always been. You should know that, with the amount of international basketball you claim to watch.

This is exactly why everyone ends up being so frustrated trying to debate you. Instead of admitting that Genjuro's got a point, you're trying to show everyone how right you are by bringing up stats that are quite meaningless in this case, especially because many of those players clearly played in a lot more games and/or played in quite meaningless games.

This is like those stupid stats of playoff points scored in the NBA, where you have so many unreliable variables like seasons played, games played, etc. (some players kept getting further because they were on much better teams, some players kept being on teams that kept sweeping opponents, some players kept playing longer series ...)
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#34 » by Genjuro » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:01 pm

What separates Pau Gasol from any other FIBA player and makes him IMO the best ever is the fact that he's been the clear-cut leader of a super-elite team from day one until 16 years later (and counting). 14 tournaments and 10 medals (perhaps 11) as the go-to player and top scorer. I don't think anybody comes anywhere close. We can pop old names from USSR and Yugoslavia, with a superior medal harvest overall, but I don't think anybody matches Pau's own medal record while being the floor leader of a team.

The only argument can come IMO from players with a higher peak, such as Nowitzki or Durant, or with higher quality victories, like Ginobili or the US players. But if you put weight into longevity, and I think it's fair to do it, it has to be Gasol.
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#35 » by jinxed » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:46 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:
Tetlak wrote:I think he kind of has to be. He's beaten the US. He has so many accolades. As mentioned in the original post, he's the all time leading scorer.


I don't recall him ever beating the US.




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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#36 » by jinxed » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:58 pm

I just looked up the history of the World championships. I'm actually surprised that the American only win in recent times before the NBA players was in 1986. Were we sending our best college players? I assume not.
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#37 » by mojo13 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:11 pm

I suppose it is how you define "greater" as there is a long list of better players to suit up in FIBA than Pau Gasol. Most just happen to have been all muddled together on crowded USA teams over the decades or in the case like Dirk on a team with no one else to do much of note.

Start a team from scratch....you can take Gasol. Then I'll take Durant or Lebron, or Magic, or Barkley or Malone or MJ or Curry or Kobe or Dirk or on and on....

Gasol has consistently performed and produced medals for a hell of a long time - if that is what we go by, it is is tough to argue against him...
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#38 » by mojo13 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:17 pm

jinxed wrote:I just looked up the history of the World championships. I'm actually surprised that the American only win in recent times before the NBA players was in 1986. Were we sending our best college players? I assume not.


Nope - most were already off to the NBA or recently drafted. More meaningful you had the same (or even worse) US attitude that the WCs didn't matter much relative to the Olympics. The Olympics were taken much more seriously and you'd get some Olympics teams with a nice array of future NBA names you'd recognize (even though they were 19-22).

After the 1976 Olympics Gold Medal in Montreal the USA had a all-time Olympic record of 78–1 - with the only loss being the 72 Munich Robbery. Shows you what the USA thought of the WCs versus the Olympics (still does I suppose).

I always wished the 1980 USA Olympic team got a chance to play but missed out due to the boycott. This was the youngest American national team ever assembled but had some interesting names. Mark Aguirre, Rolando Blackman, Sam Bowie, Michael Brooks, Bill Hanzlik, Alton Lister, Rodney McCray, Isiah Thomas, Darnell Valentine, Danny Vranes, Buck Williams and Al Wood.

In the 1984 Olympics (no Soviets) the USA swept and then the semi final loss to the Soviets pros in the 88 Olympics was the 2nd loss ever to that point. Not bad for nothing but college kids. After that the pro's stepped in.
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#39 » by Genjuro » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:54 pm

jinxed wrote:I just looked up the history of the World championships. I'm actually surprised that the American only win in recent times before the NBA players was in 1986. Were we sending our best college players? I assume not.

No, you weren't.

The selection system for the US Teams was quite complicated, with a struggle between the NCAA and the AAU in the background. The WC was perceived as a very minor competition and the power of the AAU there was bigger, also because FIBA recognized them as the amateur organism in the USA. Even Air Force players were featuring the squads (in 1959, the full US roster). This started to change when FIBA switched to NCAA in the 70s, but still they never made the same effort as in the Olympics to put the best possible teams together (and by then international basketball was quickly improving).

Anyone interested in the matter who understands Spanish should read this thread: http://foros.acb.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=186039
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Re: Is Pau Gasol the greatest FIBA player ever? 

Post#40 » by Mirotic12 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:54 pm

SportsGuy8 wrote:Gasol, Durant and Dirk are all up there among the best FIBA players, they're all true FIBA BEASTS.

Then you have players like Sabonis and Drazen. But if you mention Drazen, you also need to mention Dalipagic. With Dalipagic, several others from the past come in to the picture ... It's not an easy debate at all. Cosic, Tkachenko, Krumins, Belov ... were all good, but they simply weren't at this level.

I do think that players like Gasol, Durant, Sabonis and Dirk are ahead of the rest due to their physical abilities.
Genjuro wrote:You take 1976, with the Yugoslavian 70s squad at full strength, with an unreal roster featuring Cosic, Kicanovic, Dalipagic, Delibasic, Slavnic or Jerkov, and they get swept by college players by 20 points both times they played. USA's brightest star was Adrian Dantley, and the arguably most famous guys after him, Mitch Kupchak and Ernie Grunfeld, are not because of their playing abilities.

This just illustrates how much European basketball has progressed since. I know there's lots of Euro-nostalgists out there who won't agree, but the gap truly used to be much bigger than it is nowadays. European basketball was simply played on a lower level back then.

We really need to take the achievements from the past with a grain of salt, the same goes for NBA players. Every sport is constantly evolving, with players getting better, faster, stronger and even MORE SKILLED! Yes, even more skilled. The only thing that's lacking a bit lately is team-play, but even that's starting to improve again.


You can argue truthfully that the guards from the past are not as good. If you take out the era difference (which isn't fair though, let's clear that up), then guards of today and recent years, like Navarro, Teodosic, and Spanoulis are better than any of the guards from the 70s and 80s and 90s, and people that argue that definitely suffer from that Euro nostalgia disease, because they are being 100% unreasonable.

Anyone that has rudimentary basic basketball knowledge can see how much better the guards are today (better by leaps and bounds). However, again, it's unfair to compare without account for the era either. So guys like S. Belov, Valters, Galis, Petrovic, Kicanovic, were great for their day. You have to compare what players did in their day for across eras. It's true they had super national teams then, but in case of Gasol, he also was on a super national team, so that argument isn't even really valid.

But it's true the guards are much better now, even from the 90s'....Danilovic, or Bazarevich, or Myers, or Djordjevic, are not comparable with today's guards. The game progressed so much in guard play.

Here is the thing though, Pau isn't a guard. He's a big man. A versatile all-around skilled big man. The best big men from back in the day were fairly comparable to now, and some were just as skilled.

I really don't see much difference in skill level from Pau, to say Divac, Cosic, Sabonis, Meneghin, and so forth. And I don't see how it's correct to say Cosic wasn't on that level. Cosic was a really skilled big man, and he could do everything. At his peak, he was a great center without any doubt at all. I'm sure he would be a star in NBA today, if someone like Jokic can have the success he is having.

So while the "players are just better now" argument works when talking about guards, it does not really work when talking about big men.

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