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Draft Lottery Reform & Resting Player Fines, Approved by B of Gov's. 09-28-17 ~ Woj

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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#61 » by sully00 » Fri Sep 8, 2017 11:40 pm

165bows wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
canman1971 wrote:I think they should do a live broadcast. 14 balls, and let the order fall where it may.


Last thing you need is 8th seed candidates tanking during the last week of the regular season.

Yeah flattening the odds gets really tricky.

I lean more to the idea of not repeating lottery winners. Teams will tank no matter what they try, don't want teams tanking out of the playoffs into the the top of the lotto like you said. Better to have one year tanks then teams have to get back to reality.


All your trying to solve is teams committing themselves to losing. If the attraction of a particular 19 year old is enough for a billionaire to intentionally mismanage his 100 million dollar asset to increase the chances of acquiring their rights you have to revisit the system.

The challenge isn't to convince teams not to rebuild or to make it so finishing 17th is the same as last. What you need is for everyone to play it out and not lose games that people are paying hundreds if not thousands of dollars for on purpose. I think the easiest solution is just make the lottery odds even for the bottom 4 teams. Obviously the tank line just moves to be in the top 4 but so be it. Maybe make the rest of the lottery random as well. The top 4 spots are up for grabs but the bottom 4 teams can only drop to 5-8 and have an even advantage at getting the top pick over everyone else. You can then give a weighted advantage to teams 5-8 and Teams 9-14 can move all the way up to the top 4 but otherwise fit into slots 9-14 but every pick is pulled. That way if your bad your bad but you have less of a motivation to be that on purpose. If your in contention for a playoff spot you go for it because you have no idea if your 1, 9 or 14 if you don't make the playoffs.
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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#62 » by celtxman » Sat Sep 9, 2017 12:17 am

Froob wrote:
celtxman wrote:I've said it before - I love the idea of the wheel system - no more teams like the Sixers undeservently getting high picks. Teams having incentive to playing hard and winning every single game. What a novel idea

The wheel is an absolutely horrendous idea, it gets rid of tanking and creates much much much worse problems. So now teams can't rebuild through the draft, say you're the Bulls and now you get say the 30th, 15th, and 5th pick over the next 3 years. Wtf do you do? Who is going to sign and join a garbage team? And now say we give the Warriors the 5th pick in the draft, is that what we want?

Tanking isn't even the issue, the issue is soft cap and max contracts. LeBron makes like 32 mill and Horford makes 26, both at max contract. Those two aren't anywhere close in impact yet are only capped 6 mill apart. If you want to adjust the odds and range of the lotto okay..but the wheel would be a massive mistake. I think people grossly exaggerate the amount of teams tanking anyways, people kept saying Milwaukee was tanking when they went all in for the 8th seed a few years ago and somehow ended up with the worst record in the league.
Absolute nonsense. It's real easy what you do - you start getting good at your job. The Celtics highest self-inflicted pick was Marcus Smart at #6. None of this "whoa is me how can I get better - geez I'm stuck here forever with no capabilities to change it." Golden State is laughing all the way to the bank on that ridiculous false philosophy. Where was this mandatory high draft pick, that you need to have by losing, to be a championship team ?
In today's NBA the well-run franchises have to have management that is savvy, has a great understanding of player's value (I think we've all heard of Jae Crowder and IT) know when to hold and let go of players, and have tremendous foresight with the salary cap. So you want to continually reward teams, trying to lose, with high picks like the Sixers, and right in front of your face in Boston none of that was done and the high draft picks they got done by being a good organization, not sitting around waiting to be bailed out. It looks like the disgrace of Philly losing on purpose is panning out for them. May it never happen again. Losing on purpose is NBA's version of steroids - a total black eye on the sport. What's really horrendous is people think it's totally acceptable
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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#63 » by Froob » Sat Sep 9, 2017 12:29 am

celtxman wrote:
Froob wrote:
celtxman wrote:I've said it before - I love the idea of the wheel system - no more teams like the Sixers undeservently getting high picks. Teams having incentive to playing hard and winning every single game. What a novel idea

The wheel is an absolutely horrendous idea, it gets rid of tanking and creates much much much worse problems. So now teams can't rebuild through the draft, say you're the Bulls and now you get say the 30th, 15th, and 5th pick over the next 3 years. Wtf do you do? Who is going to sign and join a garbage team? And now say we give the Warriors the 5th pick in the draft, is that what we want?

Tanking isn't even the issue, the issue is soft cap and max contracts. LeBron makes like 32 mill and Horford makes 26, both at max contract. Those two aren't anywhere close in impact yet are only capped 6 mill apart. If you want to adjust the odds and range of the lotto okay..but the wheel would be a massive mistake. I think people grossly exaggerate the amount of teams tanking anyways, people kept saying Milwaukee was tanking when they went all in for the 8th seed a few years ago and somehow ended up with the worst record in the league.
Absolute nonsense. It's real easy what you do - you start getting good at your job. The Celtics highest self-inflicted pick was Marcus Smart at #6. None of this "whoa is me how can I get better - geez I'm stuck here forever with no capabilities to change it." Golden State is laughing all the way to the bank on that ridiculous false philosophy. Where was this mandatory high draft pick, that you need to have by losing, to be a championship team ?
In today's NBA the well-run franchises have to have management that is savvy, has a great understanding of player's value (I think we've all heard of Jae Crowder and IT) know when to hold and let go of players, and have tremendous foresight with the salary cap. So you want to continually reward teams, trying to lose, with high picks like the Sixers, and right in front of your face in Boston none of that was done and the high draft picks they got done by being a good organization, not sitting around waiting to be bailed out. It looks like the disgrace of Philly losing on purpose is panning out for them. May it never happen again. Losing on purpose is NBA's version of steroids - a total black eye on the sport. What's really horrendous is people think it's totally acceptable

How many teams are actually tanking year in year out? Orlando hasn't, they signed Biyombo and traded for Ibaka. Phoenix hasn't, they signed Tyson Chandler and almost Aldridge and tried to trade for Kyrie and allegedly Love. Brooklyn sure as hell hasn't. The Lakers paid up big for Mozgov and Deng.

Everyone is saying this is a major issue but who are these teams that are doing this? And the league basically put the cabosh on what Philly did. Philly is basically the only one who did it. A draft wheel would be a massive overreaction and mistake.

The NBA's parity problems lies in the max contracts, getting a LeBron, Steph, or a KD at the max is the biggest bargain you can get from a value/production stand point.
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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#64 » by celtxman » Sat Sep 9, 2017 1:09 am

Froob wrote:
celtxman wrote:
Froob wrote:The wheel is an absolutely horrendous idea, it gets rid of tanking and creates much much much worse problems. So now teams can't rebuild through the draft, say you're the Bulls and now you get say the 30th, 15th, and 5th pick over the next 3 years. Wtf do you do? Who is going to sign and join a garbage team? And now say we give the Warriors the 5th pick in the draft, is that what we want?

Tanking isn't even the issue, the issue is soft cap and max contracts. LeBron makes like 32 mill and Horford makes 26, both at max contract. Those two aren't anywhere close in impact yet are only capped 6 mill apart. If you want to adjust the odds and range of the lotto okay..but the wheel would be a massive mistake. I think people grossly exaggerate the amount of teams tanking anyways, people kept saying Milwaukee was tanking when they went all in for the 8th seed a few years ago and somehow ended up with the worst record in the league.
Absolute nonsense. It's real easy what you do - you start getting good at your job. The Celtics highest self-inflicted pick was Marcus Smart at #6. None of this "whoa is me how can I get better - geez I'm stuck here forever with no capabilities to change it." Golden State is laughing all the way to the bank on that ridiculous false philosophy. Where was this mandatory high draft pick, that you need to have by losing, to be a championship team ?
In today's NBA the well-run franchises have to have management that is savvy, has a great understanding of player's value (I think we've all heard of Jae Crowder and IT) know when to hold and let go of players, and have tremendous foresight with the salary cap. So you want to continually reward teams, trying to lose, with high picks like the Sixers, and right in front of your face in Boston none of that was done and the high draft picks they got done by being a good organization, not sitting around waiting to be bailed out. It looks like the disgrace of Philly losing on purpose is panning out for them. May it never happen again. Losing on purpose is NBA's version of steroids - a total black eye on the sport. What's really horrendous is people think it's totally acceptable

How many teams are actually tanking year in year out? Orlando hasn't, they signed Biyombo and traded for Ibaka. Phoenix hasn't, they signed Tyson Chandler and almost Aldridge and tried to trade for Kyrie and allegedly Love. Brooklyn sure as hell hasn't. The Lakers paid up big for Mozgov and Deng.

Everyone is saying this is a major issue but who are these teams that are doing this? And the league basically put the cabosh on what Philly did. Philly is basically the only one who did it. A draft wheel would be a massive overreaction and mistake.

The NBA's parity problems lies in the max contracts, getting a LeBron, Steph, or a KD at the max is the biggest bargain you can get from a value/production stand point.
I totally agree on the MAX contracts, and when you look at the luxury tax implications that Golden State will have, you may have the disaster of teams only being able to go so far because of the prohibitive costs to teams. But with all that I listed and more why do we need to reward bad teams as if there is no way out for them when clearly there is? I disagree that Philly has been the only team that has looked to lose as a business plan. But even if they are the only one, there is no need to even worry about it with the wheel. A true level playing field is having every team have every single pick exactly once within 30 years and imagine every team trying to put the best team on the floor and trying to win.
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NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#65 » by jfs1000d » Sat Sep 9, 2017 1:20 am

The salary cap helps cause tanking.

Unless you get he star, it is impossible to get the player because the salary cap prohibits it, and trades. If there was no cap for trades, and you could spend $200 million on anyone, then more players would move to other markets.

Because it is called, they just take 2-3 mil less to go to a winner. Lebron James is literally worth over $100 million a year to the cavs. That should be his salary.

I have killed philly over the years and think their rebuild is a failure, and it will always be a failure.

But, what are they supposed to do? They had a 42 win team and were capped out. If they could have spent another $50 million and added a good player, they would have never tanked.

But, as long as you can't buy yourself players, the only way to compete is to tank and draft. It is a bad system.


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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#66 » by jfs1000d » Sat Sep 9, 2017 1:24 am

Who is tanking?

Indiana and Chicago for one.


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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#67 » by Writebloc » Sat Sep 9, 2017 1:35 am

jfs1000d wrote:Who is tanking?

Indiana and Chicago for one.


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Atlanta, Phoenix, although Indiana might not be quite tanking. They traded for Olidipo, Corey Joseph, signed Darren Collison, and they still have Myles Turner. That's clearly not the best assembly of talent, but it is far better than Atlanta and Chicago.
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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#68 » by jfs1000d » Sat Sep 9, 2017 1:36 am

Writebloc wrote:
jfs1000d wrote:Who is tanking?

Indiana and Chicago for one.


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Atlanta, Phoenix, although Indiana might not be quite tanking. They traded for Olidipo, Corey Joseph, signed Darren Collison, and they still have Myles Turner. That's clearly not the best assembly of talent, but it is far better than Atlanta and Chicago.

Forgot about Atlanta. Surely tanking. I think Indiana sucks.


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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#69 » by celtxman » Sat Sep 9, 2017 5:21 am

jfs1000d wrote:The salary cap helps cause tanking.

Unless you get he star, it is impossible to get the player because the salary cap prohibits it, and trades. If there was no cap for trades, and you could spend $200 million on anyone, then more players would move to other markets.

Because it is called, they just take 2-3 mil less to go to a winner. Lebron James is literally worth over $100 million a year to the cavs. That should be his salary.

I have killed philly over the years and think their rebuild is a failure, and it will always be a failure.

But, what are they supposed to do? They had a 42 win team and were capped out. If they could have spent another $50 million and added a good player, they would have never tanked.

But, as long as you can't buy yourself players, the only way to compete is to tank and draft. It is a bad system.


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There is actually separate but intertwined issues. My desire to go to a wheel system is rudimentary and unattached at it's base - I don't want teams to benefit by putting a team on the court designed to lose. I said earlier it is the NBA's version of steroids, but I undersold it. When players in MLB use steroids they are trying to hit baseballs out of the park they are trying to win. Tanking is actually closer to point-shaving or fixing games. Oh yeah sure - the end goal is to have a winning team. But it's like saying your goal is to be wealthy and then robbing a bank to get there. What Philly was supposed to do was to not have a choice. But so far Adam Silver has been the modern day Bud Selig - basking in the glow of the NBA riches, while 20 years earlier Bud was flush with cash as Sosa and McGwire were bopping balls out of the park. Who was reading all of those credible articles about steroids anyway? The wheel system or something like it would be like Philly trying to rob that bank with no money in it. Losing would never be a profitable option.- you might as well try to win the games.
What's intertwined is that teams in any Draft Lottery scenario have to consider, more than ever, having rookie contracts on the books to survive, both competitively and financially. So even with a system that would eliminate the accepted cheating of tanking, you still end up with teams that are no longer incentivised to lose, yet getting rid of players who can win them more games because of the staggering, rising costs. I think we have to wonder where Wyc Grousbeck's appetite for the process begins and ends. I will always wonder if we lost banners in the Big Three Era because of financial reasons of adding longer term salary for good players. It is an advantage to have Mark Cuban as your owner, without question going forward.
As to Lebron getting $100 million, you're absolutely right about his financial impact. But by the same token you get Timofey Mozgov getting $17 million per. If you boiled it down you might pay Lebron $125 million and pay his teammate Jose Calderon $135,000, right? So it shouldn't be viewed that somehow it is unfair to players. The total revenue players get is already collectively bargained with players getting more than half. Would the players have the stomach to pay Lebron what he is worth, to get significantly less individually? The pie is still the same size. Think of a role player actor in a Tom Cruise movie who gets $25,000 while Cruise gets $25,000,000. You have players in today's NBA, riding on the coattails of Lebron and other stars making 8 and even 9 figure salaries in their career earnings, that if they retired, you might not even notice for three years.
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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#70 » by GWVan » Sat Sep 9, 2017 12:46 pm

Leave the draft lottery alone. Dramatically increase the luxury tax and distribute the tax back based on a teams record, Maybe the bottom teams get nothing at all. Make it cost millions to tank. More pain on the teams who hand out stupid max contracts as well.
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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#71 » by Darth Celtic » Sat Sep 9, 2017 2:19 pm

GWVan wrote:Leave the draft lottery alone. Dramatically increase the luxury tax and distribute the tax back based on a teams record, Maybe the bottom teams get nothing at all. Make it cost millions to tank. More pain on the teams who hand out stupid max contracts as well.


I like the idea. How about all tax money gets sent to teams not in the tax, but 75% of it goes to teams not paying tax and in the playoffs. The other 25% goes to the no tax lotto teams.
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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#72 » by brackdan70 » Sat Sep 9, 2017 2:25 pm

Andrew McCeltic wrote:Changes wouldn't happen until 2019, so if we don't get the LAL pick, that draft could be ugly for us.


if odds are flattened it seems like it could help that Sac pick. thinking Sac finished in that 5-8 range. depends what the final deal is but anything that lessens odd for 1-3 could help. If it just flattens 1-3 then no effect IMO.
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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#73 » by brackdan70 » Sat Sep 9, 2017 2:31 pm

GWVan wrote:Leave the draft lottery alone. Dramatically increase the luxury tax and distribute the tax back based on a teams record, Maybe the bottom teams get nothing at all. Make it cost millions to tank. More pain on the teams who hand out stupid max contracts as well.


I kind of like this but I do believe some small market teams could really be damaged. would have to really crunch the numbers and somehow keep adaptability in any plan like this.
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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#74 » by celtxman » Sat Sep 9, 2017 2:59 pm

GWVan wrote:Leave the draft lottery alone. Dramatically increase the luxury tax and distribute the tax back based on a teams record, Maybe the bottom teams get nothing at all. Make it cost millions to tank. More pain on the teams who hand out stupid max contracts as well.
The problem is, aside from tanking, the NBA is trying to do everything they can so that everybody has a fair chance to win championships - so that Charlotte has the same chance to win as the Knicks despite the much higher revenues the Knicks bring in. We all know the Knicks have been a poorly run franchise, yet have a big advantage in revenue through no doing of their own. You may wind up with the biggest disparity ever in building and then keeping a championship team. Golden State is currently looking at impacts into the billions (YES that's billion with a B) to keep their championship team intact - you can Google the many articles about that. So prohibitive luxury taxes sound good in theory, but they will not prevent the teams with deeper pockets and stronger stomachs from doing what Golden State is already in the process of.
So in actuality leaving the draft lottery alone may be a boon to those who tank - getting the superstars of tomorrow on very friendly contracts. Philly can sign JJ Redick for $23 for one season to get to the salary cap floor, and still have a lot of money next offseason when the year is up. There may be a wink-wink deal in place for Redick at a reduced salary the next season. Lots of advantages for those who lose on purpose.
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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#75 » by Gant » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:20 pm

Here's the proposed new system:

The three highest lottery seeds would each be allocated 14% odds to win the lottery, compared to the 25%, 19.9% and 15.6% for those three teams in the current lottery system, which has been in place since 2005. The odds for the remaining lottery would decrease smoothly, with approximately a 1%-2% difference between lottery teams.

The number of picks determined by the lottery will increase to four, compared to three in the current system. This means that the highest lottery seed would receive no worse than the fifth pick, the second seed no worse than the sixth pick, the third seed no worse than the seventh pick and fourth seed no worse than the eighth pick. Under the current system, the first seed can receive no worse than the fourth pick and second seed no worse than the fifth pick, etc.

The new system would begin with the 2019 draft, giving teams time to prepare and plan.


It doesn't seem like this would diminish the overall incentive for tanking, although it might lessen season-long tanking for some of the completely shameless teams, while increasing tanking late in the season for the not so terrible teams. My guess is it won't pass anyway:

Adopting this proposal is not a slam dunk. Some mid- and small-market teams believe this will hurt their chances of acquiring a franchise-altering player through the draft. Some of those teams are resigned to the fact that those type of players will not join their team in free agency or are leery to trade for them knowing it will be difficult to retain them.

NBA owners voted on lottery reform before the start of the 2014-15 season, and it was a similar proposal as the one up for discussion now. While 17 voted in favor of lottery reform, it requires three-quarters of a vote to pass a proposal.




https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2017/09/11/nba-draft-lottery-reform-disincentivize-tanking-set-even-odds-worst-teams/651984001/
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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#76 » by leper-con » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:26 pm

The only way to eliminate tanking is to enact a relegation system, whereby the worst team goes down and plays in the G league and the top g league team moves up into the NBA league. Problem solved.
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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#77 » by Gant » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:31 pm

leper-con wrote:The only way to eliminate tanking is to enact a relegation system, whereby the worst team goes down and plays in the G league and the top g league team moves up into the NBA league. Problem solved.


That would do it but... For many owners, that creates a bigger problem of diminishing franchise value and revenues, which means it would never get the votes to be implemented.

Tanking just isn't that bad.
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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#78 » by leper-con » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:01 pm

Gant wrote:
leper-con wrote:The only way to eliminate tanking is to enact a relegation system, whereby the worst team goes down and plays in the G league and the top g league team moves up into the NBA league. Problem solved.


That would do it but... For many owners, that creates a bigger problem of diminishing franchise value and revenues, which means it would never get the votes to be implemented.

Tanking just isn't that bad.



But that is the thing. They don't want a solution.
The hard facts are that the NBA is already an upper crust and lower crust league. It is a two tiered system.
Some teams will always win and some will always be losers. some destinations will never attract talent or retain talent.

The current system is a bit socialist in nature. teams share the wealth and there is little incentive to win.

The second tiered teams know they can't attract free agents or retain talent so , they want to keep the current lottery system intact.

Players waste their time with second tiered teams until they can transfer to a better situation. Essentially these teams are a farm system to top tier teams. they are player development .
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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#79 » by ZeroTolerance » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:26 pm

I always thought that perhaps the NBA should adopt such a rule...

Sort of like if you pick (1-3) lets say in the lottery one year, you can pick no higher than 10th in that next lottery...That would tend to break things up a bit so that teams wouldn't tank so much....you will never really deter tanking altogether though....unless you extend the time frame even further after picking #1....

In the Pro All Star Series for super late model stock car racing, they have had a rule for some time that once you have won a race, you can not start any other feature race closer to the front than 10th place during the whole rest of that racing season....And this rule has made that series much more competitive where one guy can't just dominate by starting up front and winning week after week....Now that team must make their way thru traffic in order to win....

It works well for them...I think a similar idea would help discourage an NBA team from trying to make their own lottery luck...

leper-con wrote:The only way to eliminate tanking is to enact a relegation system, whereby the worst team goes down and plays in the G league and the top g league team moves up into the NBA league. Problem solved.


I have got to admit that I like this idea....It would create a mad scramble for survival among those less fortunate teams that would be very interesting to follow...and also would inspire the better G league teams to win...that would also tend to increase attendance at G-league games and perhaps grow those franchises?

Survival of the fittest.... I like that!

Can you imagine the Celtics or the Lakers playing the Fort Wayne Indiana Mad Ants... :D

But it's hard to imagine any owner ever actually voting for such a rule....they would totally be cutting their own throats..... not that that some of them don't already do that by mistake....
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Re: NBA Draft Lottery Reform could be Voted in Before '17-18 Season ~ Woj. 

Post#80 » by chakdaddy » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:22 pm

These ideas like the wheel totally screw teams if they get the #1 in a bad year and then are prohibited from winning for 20 years. I think it's a terrible reason for this reason. And what if GSW were up on the wheel this year for Bagley?

Maybe you could be prohibited from jumping up, but you shouldn't be forced to pick lower than you're record warrants.

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