Now that Kidd's off the board that opens up a whole new tier of guys for me to consider here.
Next Tier: Gervin, Nique, T-Mac, Dwight, Reggie, Harden, Zo, Billups, McHale. I might be forgetting a couple guys but this is generally where my head's at.
Gervin: Iceman gets criminally underrated in most GOAT discussions especially here with a lot of people on this forum underrating volume scoring. He led the league in scoring 4 times on unbelievable efficiency for his time. He could take over games in the blink of an eye he could ring 40 on you. Gervin as a scorer imo tops Kobe as well as many other ATG scorers. I bet most people can't name a single Gervin teammate except maybe Kenon and they were still a tough team in the post-season. In 79' they blew a 3-1 in the ECF and I think they would've had a great chance in the finals against Seattle. He put up 42 in Game 7 and they still lost. Gervin was a great playoff performer but he was often let down by his teammates. However, Gervin had some gaping holes in his game most notably defense and passing. Gervin a bad defender but the degree to which he was a bad defender is overstated. He was clearly a better defender than Harden and anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about. However his passing is usually understated as a problem he averaged more turnovers per game than assists for his career. If he could've been just a solid passer he probably has a ring and we are probably discussing him in the top 20.
Nique: He was a slightly worse 80s version of Gervin who also suffers because of this forums dislike of volume scorers but until Gervin goes Nique can't be considered.
Howard: In 99.9% of cases I couldn't care less about intangibles and Howard falls in that .1%. Dwight is just so incredibly toxic and delusional I can't give him a pass for his ridiculous immaturity and stupidity. That being said Dwight the player gets way too much hate because of Dwight the person. He was a BEAST. Best player in the league defensively throughout his peak and his 4 DPOYs were deserved. He led the league in DWS 4 times as well. His defense at the C position alone makes him incredibly valuable but he was an efficient scorer as well. He consistently averaged around 20 ppg in his prime and he had solid gravity in the paint and in the pick and roll. He's an ATG rebounder on both ends and he led the league in rebounds 5 times. Post-prime/current Dwight also gets an unfairly bad rap as he is still probably a top 50 player in the league and his defense and rebounding are still really valuable. His 14 ppg this year where on his highest fg% of his career. That being said his horrible intangibles aren't his only weakness. He's a terrible passer and he commits at least 1 dumb/unnecessary turnover per game. With the amount of attention he drew in the paint 1.5 assists per game is unacceptable. He also faced pretty weak competition at the center position and in the east.
Reggie: 2nd greatest off ball player of all-time. ATG ceiling raiser and absolutely incredible playoff performer. He was also one of the clutchest players of all time. I understand the concern with his extremely underwhelming box score stats for a top 50 all-time player. However, his way ahead of the competition efficiency makes the low assists and rebounding numbers hurt a little less. He has the GOAT ORTG. However, he only did one thing well, score the basketball and even more specifically shoot the basketball. The defensive attention that followed him around and the awesome efficiency with which he shot the ball is what puts him in this conversation but he was average to poor at everything else so I'm not ready for him. yet....
Harden: Awesome peak and the rightful MVP this year (triple doubles are so overrated
). Great efficiency as a scorer and just a great well rounded player...... offensively
. His lack of defense and longevity means its a bit too early for him.
Zo: Great peak in 00 and one of the best defensive centers of all time. Got unlucky playing the golden era of centers for most of his prime. Lack of playoff success is eye opening but the presence of an elite guard could probably have changed that. When he had Tim Hardaway they won 61 games and made the Eastern Conference Finals (barely). He surpasses his stats according to my eye test but mediocre advanced stats mean I might be wrong.
Billups: I love him and his style of play and his willingness to spread the wealth directly correlated to the Pistons success. He has awesome impact stats which I think are deserving and the Denver trade bodes well for him in examining his impact. Mr. Big Shot deserves a long hard look at this stage.
Last but not least my favorite player of all-time (yes I'm admitting to my slight bias though I try not to be) Tracy McGrady. T-Mac was the ideal point-forward and if for some reason we were cloning shooting guards I'd argue T-Mac would be the best choice. McGrady had it all 6'9" elite athleticism and wingspan. He had absolutely no holes in his game. I'll go through every portion of his game but not overly extensive. First his passing ability was great, truly elite. He knew how to find his teammates at the best time in the best spot and had the type of vision you can only be born with. He could pass out of any double-team and he basically never turned the ball over. His turnover pct was often below 10% which is really incredible. Another reason for his turnover averse play was his ball-handling. Tracy McGrady is the greatest SG ball handler of all time and at 6'9" that's really saying something. He could dribble the ball anywhere he wanted on the court and while sometimes his fancy displays of ball-handling killed ball movement they mostly enabled him to attack and score from wherever he wanted. These two traits made him the best point-forward of his time (pre LBJ of course). He could do literally whatever he wanted as far as scoring the basketball. He could get to the basket and finish with ease, he had a solid post up game with a great fadeaway, he could pull up for 3 off-the dribble, he could spot up and hit shots, he could run off screens, he could any type of step-back, turnaround, hop step mid range jumpers you could think of, he could play in the pick and roll to score or pass, and he could explode out of the triple-threat. He had the most variety in his coring of any player I've ever seen and possibly the most ever. He was really the perfect wing. T-Mac was really beautiful to watch. Watching T-Mac play was like watching Federer play tennis it looks as tho they were born to play the sport and they just glide around the court gracefully dismantling their opponents in a way that seems effortless. This seemingly effortlessness in McGrady's game probably partially contributed to the perception of him being a lazy player. McGrady's work ethic was pretty poor and if he had Kobe or MJ killer in him, provided he was healthy, he'd be top 3 all-time. He was never a great leader and he was a pretty quiet guy but his intangibles other than work ethic weren't a negative. I can't honestly blame him for his lack of effort if your best teammates were Juwan Howard and Mike Miller you'd probably be pretty frustrated and lazy too. Those Orlando supporting casts are so laughably bad that they dwarf LBJ and Kobe's and even Garnett's. No wonder his back couldn't take him carrying all those scrubs for 4 years
. His situation was just completely hopeless. Maybe that's why he always settled for deep contested 2s his jumper was awesome but no one can hit contested perimeter shots consistently at a high percentage. He easily could've gotten to the rim more or created more open looks but he really seemed to half-ass games at time because of how **** his teams were. He was literally the only guy on the team who could create any shots for himself or others. That's probably another reason he settled because he was tasked with doing literally everything for his team and he was probably exhausted. Had he played on even a decent team he would have the energy to attack the rim way more. Same goes for defense when he was playing at 100% effort he looked like an All-NBA defender but he was an average defender his whole career because he didn't care to play defense most of the time and he also didn't have energy to play D. McGrady was the only person on his team that defenses had to give any **** about and he still destroyed defenses. At his peak in 03 he had 30 ast % to 8.4 yes 8.4 tov % and had the greatest season of all-time tied with Michael Jordan according to OBPM at 9.8. The Magic still only went 42-40 and he played amazing in the playoffs and they still lost in 7 to the Pistons. It's honestly depressing to think about. If only Tim Duncan signed with the Magic and Grant Hill could stay healthy they would've been the greatest team of all-time and maybe McGrady's back wouldn't have been destroyed by carrying the 600 pound Shawn Kemp and all those other scrubs on his back. His 1 year peak is top 10 and his 7 year prime is awesome but it could've been so much more. He was the third best player in the league in the early 00s behind Shaq and TD and was the best offensive player in a time dominated by defense. This is getting ridiculously long so I'm done but I could go on for even longer if I wanted lol. I'm willing to answer any questions/debate with people about this but I think it's time for McGrady.
1st Vote: T-Mac
2nd: Gervin
