RealGM 2017 Top 100 List: #41 (George Gervin)

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Re: #41, RUN-OFF!: Reggie vs Ice Man vs The Truth 

Post#41 » by dhsilv2 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:39 am

oldschooled wrote:
oldschooled wrote:Vote: Willis Reed
Alt: Wes Unseld

Changing my vote to Willis Reed. I just think he had better impact on those championship teams. Being a MVP and 2-time Finals MVP doesn't hurt either :wink: . Had better elite in-era level of play compared to any of the guys mentioned (except AI) - MVP shares. Elite level of play, a champion and a 2-time Finals MVP, Reed takes this ahead of the likes of Reggie, Pierce, etc.


Crap. So this won't count now? If Pierce, Truth and Gervin are the guys next, i guess i'll take a pass.


Just 1 of them gets in, then we vote again.
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Re: #41, RUN-OFF!: Reggie vs Ice Man vs The Truth 

Post#42 » by janmagn » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:52 am

Reggie Miller gets my vote in this runoff. He was a great scorer, ATG shooter, played in the same conference, the same division with the GOAT. Showed that you can be a star as a volume shooter from the outside

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Re: #41, RUN-OFF!: Reggie vs Ice Man vs The Truth 

Post#43 » by dhsilv2 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:06 am

I had to look at these 3 a lot for this one.

Peirce and Miller have crazy close advanced stats. Similar career VORP, similar career win share. Nearly identical playoff VORP.

Miller did play better in the playoffs, Pierce was better in the regular season.

And then we come to Gervin, by far the most accomplished of the 3. 9 all leagues, 12 time allstar, second in the mvp twice, and 3rd another time. Pierce and Miller combined don't match Gervin's awards. Meanwhile he comes up 100 game short in the playoffs and doesn't have nearly the same finals WS and VORP say Peirce and Miller were better. PER says Gervin was better. PER thinks Gervin was an all time guy. Meanwhile WS/VORP don't think any of these guys were all timers, which makes Gervin's poor finish all the worse.

if I go by the stats and adjust a bit for results, I think I have to take Pierce here. If I adjust a bit more for awards Gervin takes this. So for my, that removes miller.

I hate this choice as these 3 are all extremely similar for me, they all have different advantages.

Vote Pierce

I'm voting Pierce due to the title, I think his defense is better than Gervin, and his accolades are enough better than Miller with the title. I really however don't feel strong here. Gervin is certainly a bigger name and a huge legend, but volume scorers have so historically been overrated I'm more willing to believe a guy like pierce who I think is a bit more well rounded.
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Re: #41, RUN-OFF!: Reggie vs Ice Man vs The Truth 

Post#44 » by Clyde Frazier » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:00 am



From our very own PockyCandy. Well worth the watch.
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Re: #41, RUN-OFF!: Reggie vs Ice Man vs The Truth 

Post#45 » by zimpy27 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:07 am

Ice Man

Best career averages and efficiency.
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Re: #41, RUN-OFF!: Reggie vs Ice Man vs The Truth 

Post#46 » by Dr Positivity » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:08 am

Thoughts on Cousy, Billups, Miller, Gervin, Tmac, Mourning, Dwight, Schayes, Iverson, Unseld, Pierce, Westbrook, Hayes from last thread:

Spoiler:
Bob Cousy - Case for: Superb longevity. He is still a 2nd team All-NBA level, all-star in his 13th season. Highly regarded by his peers with all his All-NBA, wins MVP, and in 1980 which is about the halfway point for this project is one of 11 players selected for the 35th anniversary team ahead of some contenders here like Barry and Frazier. Being one of the best slashers of his era and the best passer are both high value offensive roles. Helped Boston to 1st ORTGs when he was the best player. Case against: Played against mostly segregated players in his prime. Being the best guard passer in a poor passing league doesn't necessarily mean he was better at it than future players. Weak TS leads to disappointing OWS and WS production, never finishes higher than 8th/9th in WS. The Celtics dynasty was predicted to collapse without him but they did just fine. Likely overcredited in his time for Boston's offensive success, noting that this was a time where they didn't know any better than to think whoever scored the most points had the best offense, eg. in Cousy's MVP year they had the 5th highest ORTG but scored the most points easily so they may have credited the offensive player as the driving force.

Chauncey Billups - Case for: Combination of passing, getting to the line and free throw line all of which is highly valuable on offense. Somewhat ahead of his time in appreciation for his skillset and value of 3pt spacing. Very good boxscore player with a few top 5s in WS (3rd/5th) and other top 10s and solid but would do better in VORP if his defense was rated better as it probably should've been. Leads Pistons to some strong seasons even without Ben Wallace. Iverson for Billups trade looks terrific for his case with his impact on the Nuggets both as a player and leader and Pistons decline without him. Case against: Ok longevity with about 8 strong years. Good but not great RAPM career, mainly peaking later in his prime. Felt less talented than other players in contention here. Not rated a superstar in his time, not even a star on the level of players like Pierce, Allen and Kidd. His reasonable MVP/All-NBA career somewhat misrepresents the lack of real star labelling there was for Billups. Seen somewhat like the game manager QB on an elite football defense, great at it, but still a game manager. Doesn't necessarily "put pressure on the defense" athletically.

Reggie Miller - Case for: Increases his stock in the playoffs where he is on several occasions a killer. Game translates to playoffs well since he can create open shots by movement. Outstanding longevity and durability and still has value late in his career as floor spacer. 17th in career WS. High floor spacing effect that he know better now than they did in the 90s the value of. Solid passing stats and ability to get to the FT Line, not just a spot up shooter. Good RAPM support. Case against: Shockingly little accolades in his time, not just missing MVP and All-NBA but all-star games half the time. Difficult to make the case he was ever a top 5 player, even in the stat that loves him WS he never finishes top 5. Limited RAPM sample also has him as very good but more of a fringe top 10 guy.

George Gervin - Case for: One of the best offensive careers left, leads the league in scoring 4x and a highly efficient scorer and leads good offenses and contenders. Considered a superstar on his time, 2x 2nd and 1x 3rd MVP finishes and 5 straight 1st team All-NBA. Case against: The Harden of his era on defense, probably worst top 50 defender if Harden doesn’t get in. Only finishes top 5 once in WS and peaks at 6th in VORP in NBA. Mediocre passing for his scoring volume, playmaking is typically critical for high offensive impact for a guard.

Tracy McGrady - Case for: Amazing statistical peak in 2003 right up there (9.7 BPM!) that’s up there with any Kobe season. Great playmaking wing increasing his value throughout his career along with high volume scoring. Good playoff performer. Case against: Weak longevity and health. Poor intangibles and often seemed half asleep. TS average outside of 03. Never makes it past 1st round as a real player. Him and Yao never seemed to reach their potential together and the Rockets suspiciously overperformed whenever one got injured.

Alonzo Mourning - Case for: One of the best defensive centers remaining, as elite shotblocker and 2x DPOY. Plays the right position to be defense first. Peaks at 2nd in MVP voting in 00 and 1st in 99 RAPM (ascreamingacrossthecourt). Solid 8 years before kidney problems, decent play in 02 and valuable few years as mega shotblocking backup C in 06 and 07. 20 point scorer with above average TS and has midrange floor spacing. Outstanding intangibles, he is both the anti-Dwight and anti-Gilmore in a way. Case against: Not a great offensive threat. Terrible passing numbers and assist to turnover rate. Visually a Meh scoring skillset. May have got the job done in the regular season but to win a title there needs to be a more dynamic offensive player on the team.

Dwight Howard - Case for: Excellent accolades in his time, finishing 2nd in MVP (and possibly deserving to win) and 2x 4th place and 1x 5th place. 3rd a few times in WS and peaks at 5th/6th in VORP. The consensus best defender in the league in his prime and offensively is a 20 point, highly efficient scorer who creates gravity on the pick and roll. The defense alone is highly valuable at center. Peaks at 5th/8th in RAPM. Case against: Poor intangibles, annoying manchild. Very poor passing center who turns it over, and a complete non floor spacer at C. Played in a perfect offensive fit for his style, with ahead of its time floor spacing giving him room inside to score and he has never been the same without it. His offensive skillset never fully passed the eye test. Defensive impact seemed to evaporate after Orlando. When looking at how much better a player like late career Mourning was on defense than post prime Dwight, is it a clue about their ability on that end in their prime?

Dolph Schayes - Case for: Terrific all around offense for his time. High volume scoring, highly efficient, good passing and one of the original floor spacing bigs. Quality longevity as still a relevant player (2nd team All-NBA) in his 12th season and production as late as 61 shows he wasn't just a product of pre shot clock. Defense is hard to gauge but he did well in DWS and finished 1st in the league once. A clearcut top 5 player for his time which many of the alternatives above were not. Won a title as best player. Case against: Played in mostly segregated era and has an antiquated shooting style. Doesn't appear to have had a good defensive skillset even if he was good for his time - he just played in weaker era.

Allen Iverson - Case for: Rated well in his time, MVP winner with two other top 5 finishes. Tremendous volume scorer, on ball playmaker which is high value offensive role. For an advanced stats lightning rod, is a respectable 42nd in VORP. Solid longevity compared to other options here, a solid decade. Made Finals with role players. Efficiency problems somewhat connected to context. Played on defense first team with terrible spacing, in pre handcheck rules era. TS improved in Denver when this was rectified. Imagine if he played with the spacing Harden has right now. Case against: Not a great advanced stats player. Rated as overrated by RAPM and WS on the whole. TS when it dips low enough in PHI makes it harder to say he's worth it. Weak defense. Poor intangibles. Very weak portability both for his style of game and his attitude.

Wes Unseld - Case for: Impact not captured by his boxscore. His outlet passes don't always end in assists, GOAT level screen setter and defends well without it showing up in blocks. More than his MVP, his Finals MVP averaging 9/12/4 looks even crazier in terms of impact he must have shown without stats. Even with that in mind, his boxscore is still decent, he finished top 10 in WS and VORP 5 times each. Fantastic intangibles. Relevant for over a decade. Leads his team to 4 Finals and a title. Case against: Very mediocre volume scoring threat when you take into account pace as well. Combined with playing center it's hard to believe he has a great offensive impact despite the passing. Never makes an all-defensive team. Never makes All-NBA after his MVP season or finishes higher than 8th in MVP again. As soon as he gets there Hayes is voted on as the best player on the team by MVP votes.

Paul Pierce - Case for: All time great longevity, he comes in relatively polished and is still a great player by his 15th year in the league, and even BKN/WAS version after that is starting caliber. 25th all in in WS, 23rd in VORP. Perimeter players who handles and passes well tend to rate strongly in ORPM. Good floor spacer. Strong playoff credentials. Good playoff career including in 08 going toe to to with Lebron and winning Finals MVP. Defense in Garnett era was solid. Case against: Arguable low peak for players here. Only finishes in top 10 in MVP voting once (7th in 09), his 2nd that season was also the only time he finished better than 3rd All-NBA. Only finishes top 10 in RAPM once (08). In his 26-27ppg season she played a lot of minutes to inflate his numbers. Difficult to build champion around him as #1.

Russell Westbrook - Case for: High peak dropping a crazy 32/11/10 MVP season. His last 2 seasons would've ranked high for peaks at this range too. Broke BPM/VORP. A monster talent who puts a ton of physical pressure on the opponent. Plays hard every minute. Has excelled as both 2nd option and 1st. Very good in the playoffs and has come out on the better end of several high profile PG battles. Case against: Rates as top 10 not top 5 peak in RPM. Average longevity, has been a star level player for 7 years, one of them he played 46 games in, and it's only the last 3 where he went to MVP level peak. Low portability both emotionally and style of play, is not taking a backseat to anyone and wants to shoot as much as possible. Mediocre 3pt shooting and floor spacing. Average TS throughout his career and turnover prone.

Elvin Hayes - Case for: Strong longevity and perfect durability leading to high total career marks in points and rebounds. Rated as a star in his time with 2 3rd place MVP, a 5th and several other top 10s and makes 3 1st team All-NBA. Good defensive player and makes a few 2nd team all-defense. Successful in Washington and arguably most talented or best player on a champion, and making 2 other Finals. Case against: Underwhelming TS and a poor passer for his volume, which combines for only ok performance in stats like OWS or OBPM. Terrible intangibles, reviled by many teammates and coaches and has been compared to Chinese water torture, and has been called the worst person they've met in sports. Overall playoff stats are decent, but had choker reputation.


Vote Paul Pierce

Pierce would have been my vote if I had made the regular cut-off. I am fine with any of Pierce, Miller, Gervin getting in here. Pierce and Miller longevity is close to equal, Miller is better at shooting than Pierce is at anything but Pierce is a good shooter himself and has ball handling, passing, creation skills all of which correlate pretty well in offensive impact stats. Gervin has a case built on his superstar reputation and MVP votes and high volume, great efficiency scoring is one of the best things you can do offensively, but the combination of his defense and passing scares me considering those things are so critical to impact
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Re: #41, RUN-OFF!: Reggie vs Ice Man vs The Truth 

Post#47 » by 70sFan » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:41 am

George Gervin is my run-off. I don't usually vote, but I want to help in this situation.

Gervin is one of the most unstoppable scorers of all time. He's not much of a playmaker but it neither is Miller. Gervin has good longevity (though probably the worst) and decent team success with worse teams than Miller and especially Pierce.

I like The Truth but I don't think he was top 5 player more than once or twice. Gervin was legitimately MVP-candidate in 1978-81 span. He was amazing offensive player and his teams were also very good offensively. Pierce is better defender, but not by a lot.

Reggie is my last choice here. He has outstanding longevity but I don't think he's as good as the other two during their primes. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm mostly a eye-test guy and their numbers are fairly close. Pierce is the best defender and playmaker, Gervin is the best scorer and Reggie is the most efficient. A matter of preference mostly, I'd rather have Gervin. Iceman was better scorer than Kove Bryant and he's not in top 20 only because he wasn't great playmaker.
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Re: #41, RUN-OFF!: Reggie vs Ice Man vs The Truth 

Post#48 » by Hornet Mania » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:06 pm

41. Reggie Miller

Reggie would have been my vote anyway if I hadn't been away for the weekend. Iceman would have likely been the alternate so I'm fine with the runoff result either way.
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Re: #41, RUN-OFF!: Reggie vs Ice Man vs The Truth 

Post#49 » by Winsome Gerbil » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:10 pm

Well, of these three guys I would say:

On Talent
Gervin
Pierce
Miller

On Stature/Iconicness
Gervin
Miller (if you factor in hype/media attention)
Pierce

If you factor in his ABA days, which you probably can more safely on this one since his numbers actually went UP in the NBA, Gervin made 12 straight All Star games, 9 straight All NBA/ABAs, won 4 out of 5 scoring titles -- and for pretty good perennial playoff 48-52 win teams too -- and finished in the Top 6 in MVP voting for 6 straight years. A flawed player, but also a near iconic one with a nickname and famous shot (da finger roll) still associated with him to this day. Neither of these other guys can match that level of dominance. I understand for some voters there is some conflation of "career value" with "greatness", but I am not those some. Before I get to that stuff, and assuming guys had full careers relative to their day, I always look at who was the most dominant player in his prime. That would be Iceman.

41. George Gervin
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Re: #41, RUN-OFF!: Reggie vs Ice Man vs The Truth 

Post#50 » by Lou Fan » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:50 pm

This is super close for me between Reggie and Gervin with Pierce as a pretty distant 3rd. I'll ride with Gervin's efficient volume scoring over Reggie's hyper efficient scoring
Vote: Gervin
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Re: #41, RUN-OFF!: Reggie vs Ice Man vs The Truth 

Post#51 » by Pablo Novi » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:36 pm

euroleague wrote:George Gervin

Wow. The one time I miss voting, Cousy would've been in it.

Anyway, Gervin is a scoring icon. No contest here. Miller had good teams, but not the consistency of Gervin.

euroleague,
You really let me (and the Hudini of the Hardwood) down this time! LOL
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Re: #41, RUN-OFF!: Reggie vs Ice Man vs The Truth 

Post#52 » by Pablo Novi » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:49 pm

George Gervin:
ALL-League 1st-Team FIVE times; 2nd-Team FOUR times. NINE GREAT YEARS!
Way more dominant of his position than any other remaining SG.
WAY MORE DOMINANT than Reggie (who had ZERO 1st-Team selections; and only ONE 2nd-Team) or Pierce (who had ZERO 1st-Team selections; and ZERO 2nd-Team) were.
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Re: #41, RUN-OFF!: Reggie vs Ice Man vs The Truth 

Post#53 » by Outside » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:04 pm

Runoff vote: Gervin
Alternate: Reggie Miller


Not sure if an alternate vote is needed for the runoff, but including it just in case.

From a recent post of mine:

Scoring is the most highly valued skill in the game, and Gervin did it in volume and with efficiency -- he led the NBA in scoring four times, has a career scoring average of 25.1 (only nine players have a higher career average), and his TS% of 56.4 is better than all of them except Jordan, LeBron, and Durant.

He seemed to score at will. I saw him play once when he had 18 points in the first half, then got hot in the second half and wound up with 40-something. Just incredible to watch, and to score that efficiently without a three-point shot is remarkable (he had range out to 20 feet, but out of 20,583 FGA, only 451 were threes).

He wasn't a great rebounder, but he averaged 5.3 for his career, which is pretty good (Paul Pierce, who is generally thought of as a good rebounder, averaged 5.6). His assists weren't great -- only 2.6 APG for his career -- and while he wasn't a good defender, he did average 1.0 blocks and 1.2 steals per game.

25, 595 career points -- 16th all time
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Re: #41, RUN-OFF!: Reggie vs Ice Man vs The Truth 

Post#54 » by trex_8063 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:07 pm

Outside wrote:Runoff vote: Gervin
Alternate: Reggie Miller


Not sure if an alternate vote is needed for the runoff, but including it just in case.


No, just one pick in the run-offs. :)
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Re: #41, RUN-OFF!: Reggie vs Ice Man vs The Truth 

Post#55 » by trex_8063 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:14 pm

I'm a pinch early on this, but we've only had one additional vote come in during the last ~5-6 hours, and Gervin has a comfortable edge over the other two.
I count it:

George Gervin - 10 (penbeasto, Clyde Frazier, scabbarista, Pablo Novi, pandrade83, twolves97, euroleague, 70sFan, Winsome Gerbil, Outside)
Reggie Miller - 5 (Doctor MJ, LABird, JordansBulls, janmagn, Hornet Mania)
Paul Pierce - 3 (trex_8063, dhsilv2, Dr Positivity)


So I'm calling it for Gervin. Will have the next thread up in a moment.


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