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ATL - New Lottery Rules Move to Owner Vote - pg59

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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1141 » by midranger » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:59 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:
midranger wrote:
Ron Swanson wrote:I do think the key lies somewhere in financial incentives for the low-seed playoff teams. If tanking hurts the bottom line for the rest of the owners as much as they say it does, then institute some sort of stricter cap on revenue sharing for teams that don't bring in enough gate revenue and/or ticket sales. Owners will start to care about letting their GM's all-out tank if it starts hitting them in the pocket book.

Good idea.



Still not fair to the fans of the worst teams though. What if a team is just bad? I don't support anything that makes it even harder for bad teams to turn it around.

This is tied to the parity issue as well. In basketball, you know the better team almost always wins a playoff series. There's no suspense. Mediocre teams don't have the same hope they do in MLB or the NFL. So part of the total lack of interest is inherent in the sport. The other part is the importance of superstars, which are far more likely to come from the very top of the draft than in other sports.


The worst teams get the best picks, and thus a path to the talent needed to make the playoff.
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1142 » by MickeyDavis » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:00 pm

Owners would love expansion of course, they get to split those hefty expansion dollars. Personally I don't think watering down teams is the way to go. There are already plenty of scrubs in the league. I'd love to see contraction, rather than expansion. Yes, I know that would never happen. Give me 20 teams with 8 in the playoffs.
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1143 » by midranger » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:01 pm

Expansion would be dreadful. Look at some of those 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks in the redraft.

The top end talent in the NBA is incredible but the depth of talent is ridiculously poor. Diluting it further would be a mistake.
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1144 » by midranger » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:02 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:Owners would love expansion of course, they get to split those hefty expansion dollars. Personally I don't think watering down teams is the way to go. There are already plenty of scrubs in the league. I'd love to see contraction, rather than expansion. Yes, I know that would never happen. Give me 20 teams with 8 in the playoffs.

You beat me to it.
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1145 » by MickeyDavis » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:02 pm

midranger wrote:Expansion would be dreadful. Look at some of those 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks in the redraft.

The top end talent in the NBA is incredible but the depth of talent is ridiculously poor. Diluting it further would be a mistake.


:nod:
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1146 » by coolhandluke121 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:07 pm

Just totally spit-balling here, but what about adding extra first-round picks and giving them to the lottery teams that don't have the worst records? That way the truly bad teams still get their top picks, but mediocre lottery teams have an incentive to compete for the best supplementary picks.

There's nothing just you can do to prevent the worst teams from hoping for top-3 picks. It's the nature of the beast. What other hope do they have? But you can at least prevent every team from 5-12 from trying to lose come March.

Another really outside the box idea would be requiring good teams to expose part of their roster to a supplemental draft and design the rules of the draft to dis-incentivize tanking more. Again, the very worst teams still get the highest picks in the regular draft, but they'd truly be the teams that had no choice other than to tank, which is as it should be. The teams with other options would be more inclined to compete for supplementary draft picks. Losing the most would still be the best option for bad teams, but when you have alternative prizes for lottery teams that are reasonably competitive, they might look at the negative publicity and stigma and player development issues of tanking and decide against it. This would obviously help parity because good teams would lose players and borderline playoff teams would improve faster, possibly making the first 2 rounds of the playoffs more competitive and interesting.
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1147 » by MickeyDavis » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:18 pm

coolhandluke121 wrote:Another really outside the box idea would be requiring good teams to expose part of their roster to a supplemental draft and design the rules of the draft to dis-incentivize tanking more. Again, the very worst teams still get the highest picks in the regular draft, but they'd truly be the teams that had no choice other than to tank, which is as it should be. The teams with other options would be more inclined to compete for supplementary draft picks. Losing the most would still be the best option for bad teams, but when you have alternative prizes for lottery teams that are reasonably competitive, they might look at the negative publicity and stigma and player development issues of tanking and decide against it. This would obviously help parity because good teams would lose players and borderline playoff teams would improve faster, possibly making the first 2 rounds of the playoffs more competitive and interesting.

The NFL did something like that. "Plan B" free agents. Teams could protect 37 players each season. It lasted 3-4 years I think.
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1148 » by sidney lanier » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:28 pm

midranger wrote:Expansion would be dreadful. Look at some of those 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks in the redraft.

The top end talent in the NBA is incredible but the depth of talent is ridiculously poor. Diluting it further would be a mistake.


I agree. I think I can solve all the problems discussed here with a single radical solution.

The problems:

1. Talent too diluted
2. Draft inadequate to pull bad teams up by their bootstraps
3. Regular season not meaningful enough

The solution:

1. Relegation of bottom eight teams to NBA Division 2
2. Only those eight teams are eligible for top eight draft picks; straight 8 through 1 draft seeding based on D2 record
3. NBA Division 2 teams mostly just play each other, with NBA Division 1 teams also playing them on a limited basis, similar to MLB interleague play
4. Top 4 D2 teams are promoted back into regular NBA every year, trading places with bottom four D1 teams.

Among other things, a promotion and relegation system would make those March games between non-playoff teams a lot more meaningful. Tie it to player compensation and I think you'd see less coasting and a better product overall. it would also serve as an incubator for those 19-year-old lotto picks who are not ready to face the LBJs of the world, since by definition they'd be in D2 for at least a year.
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1149 » by coolhandluke121 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:49 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:The NFL did something like that. "Plan B" free agents. Teams could protect 37 players each season. It lasted 3-4 years I think.


I wasn't paying attention to the NFL at the time but I read that it fell apart because of antitrust lawsuits from the players. It sounds like it wasn't just a draft, but also an unfair version of free agency on top of that. I'd say what I'm proposing is more similar to a rule 5 draft in MLB, which is just something that happens in addition to all the other, normal player movement pathways. In MLB, it sort of makes it harder to stockpile ridiculous talent on your 40-man and prevent players from getting opportunities to make the majors in a timely manner. Obviously my version would involve more players who are already on active rosters and could have a more immediate effect on parity.
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1150 » by FlagsFlyForever » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:07 pm

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/bmeamv/the-nba-is-more-international-than-ever-but-does-that-make-it-global
When the NBA began its regular season on Tuesday, the league's 30 rosters tallied the most international players in its history—101 players from 37 countries making for a record 23 percent of the league. The number of international players has more than doubled in the past decade—in 2001, foreign players made up about 10 percent of league rosters.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2648221-2016-nba-draft-sets-record-for-most-international-players-selected-in-1st-round
Fifteen international players were among the first 30 picks in the 2016 NBA draft Thursday, which set a record for the most foreign-born prospects selected in the first round


Why are people saying the NBA talent is too diluted? I feel like people are too focused on nostalgia of years past to remember what the NBA used to look like. NBA basketball is played at a higher level today than it has ever been throughout its history. The superstars have always been there, but the bench guys of yesteryear were nowhere near skilled enough to make it in today's NBA. In 1980-81, only 1.7% of NBA players were foreign born. That year, the entire NBA shot 24.5% on three pointers. In 2016-17, the NBA set records for eFG% (0.514) breaking the previous record set during the previous season and the league also set a record for fewest turnovers and highest FT% (0.772).

The huge influx of international talent over the past decade is like when Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in baseball. The quality of play improved significantly because all of that talent didn't exist in prior seasons.
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1151 » by MickeyDavis » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:09 pm

Most foreign players are busts. Yi. Darko. Delly to name 3 of many many many.
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1152 » by averageposter » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:29 pm

I don't think you can fix it honestly. There is incentive to be bad, there always will be. Philly did everything they needed to in an unapologetic way. Everything they did as a fan at a keyboard of a team that should a done more of that and less of 8 seed or bust you can agree with. Even with lesser odds, or less guarantee the process will be the same. The NBA has tweaked other things like raising the salary floor, hoping that teams would put a better product out and Philly elected to cut checks to the team at the end of the year rather then sign anybody extra. Smart, refusing to cut even short deals to middling vets but not what the NBA had in mind.

I think some other plan like Simmon's could work, but the early returns as the process changes would be ugly. Gap between the worst teams lamenting the draft is all we got, to the 8th seed is big but its artificially held there by teams choosing to be close to the bottom because that's smart. If it weren't I doubt the gap would be what it is.

I think recent years have proven big markets mean very little anymore, Player exposure is high anyway with social media, if you want more win more and free agents have by and large made that the driving factor and signed accordingly. If teams after the initial changeover still had trouble digging out after quitting trying to be bad, I think I'm fine with not rewarding teams who fail. They need to make organizational changes.
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1153 » by emunney » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:53 pm

Yo Doncic is repeatedly owning Porzingis right now.
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1154 » by greekbuck34 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:42 pm

Doncic is simply amazing and aside the athleticism he has a very high IQ too.
His mistakes are pure lack of experience but next year he will be ahead of every rookie in that department too.

Porzingis as a pure center was like a semigod in fiba rules and against a sub-par quality-wise eurobasket.
His lack of strength though was obvious even against the typical average european centers and Latvia paid it by allowing easy points or getting foul trouble for Kristaps almost in every game.

He can't play as a center in NBA yet and he is too slow to guard most of the NBA PFs and ofc smaller guys in the perimeter.
Doncic killed him on ISO.

Dragic was the usual Dragic in fiba. Unfair..
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1155 » by Prez » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:47 pm

Yeah I'm in love with Doncic as a prospect. His skill level & understanding are just not normal for his age.
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1156 » by FlagsFlyForever » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:40 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:Most foreign players are busts. Yi. Darko. Delly to name 3 of many many many.

I know there are a lot of foreign busts but there are a lot of American busts as well. I do think for a little while, teams overreacted trying to draft the next Dirk (see drafting Darko #2 overall) but I think that has normalized by now and teams have a much better read on Europeans coming into the league.

I don't have any evidence but if most foreign players were busts, the NBA wouldn't have just set the record of 50% of the 1st round being foreign. GMs would catch on by now but instead there are more foreign players in the NBA than ever before. We see valuable Europeans enter the league every year. Guys like Gasol, a center who led the NBA in three point shooting last season and is also an excellent passer, great defender, and capable post scorer. Guys like Jokic and Giannis who are legit point centers. These guys simply did not exist during the years of Kareem or Jordan.

We can agree to disagree. My opinion is the talent level is higher in today's NBA than ever before.




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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1157 » by Pachinko_ » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:21 am

If you look at the recent drafts there are almost as many international picks who became starters or better as there are americans

And they'd be drafting many more but they're spread across many countries and they're hard to monitor and assess in any meaningful way.
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1158 » by Ron Swanson » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:29 pm

We're now living in a time where the international talent pool has arguably caught up with the U.S. for probably the first time in history. That said, I do think that there's a tendency to overrate certain Euro or foreign guys based on this notion that leagues like the Adriatic, French Division-I, etc. are closer to NBA level competition. They're certainly closer than they were 20 years ago, but still worlds apart. There's no real correlation between Euro-league success and high level NBA stardom anymore than there is with D-1 college.
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1159 » by midranger » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:06 pm

The American talent pool is at an all time low and seems to be sinking each year. The draft is just a nightmare.
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Re: ATL - New Lottery Rules Proposed - Page 56 

Post#1160 » by midranger » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:11 pm

I could be wrong but I believe Giannis was the last all star drafted.
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