Markelle Fultz Discussion

Ericb5 · Post #1381 » by **Ericb5** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:39 am

LloydFree wrote:
HotelVitale wrote:
LloydFree wrote:No. You have that wrong with Okafor. For much of that season (at least until the tournament), guys in the draft threads were adamant that Okafor was the #1 prospect and that anybody who thought Towns was better was either trying to be different or trying to nitpick the clear #1.
Other dude was talking about the Okafor-KAT debate 6 months+ later--after the draft and before the NBA reg season started. I'm well aware that Okafor was the leading HS prospect, and that KAT was like 5th-7th on most boards at the start of the year. But KAT was obviously so agile and versatile for his size that anyone with eyes could see he was a better long-term play once about 10 NCAA games had gone by.

You are wrong. Anybody with eyes SHOULD have been able to see that Towns was better than Okafor 10 games in. That was not the case. Guys on this board were calling Towns flat footed and even saying Caulie-Stein was more impressive, all the way up to March. Okafor was #1 all year by the "experts". You are misremembering (maybe because we've seen the outcome.)

I think you are misremembering because you turned out to be right in that debate, and you remember that there were people on the other side. However, there were very few people who argued Okafor over Towns by march, and once they were drafted there were virtually zero.

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Chris76 · Post #1382 » by **Chris76** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:10 pm

A good debate, who is better?

Fultz + Simmons or Ball + Simmons?

With PnR, Fultz has the advantage. He can quickly pull up or drive past a big on a switch.

With Ball's funky release, he may have trouble getting contested shots off.

Also, Simmons and Ball have great vision and passing, whereas Fultz is a very good shooter. Fultz would fit better with Simmons.

LordCovington33 · Post #1383 » by **LordCovington33** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:19 pm

It is funny how angry celtic fans were with the trade down at the time:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1578029&start=1340#start_here

Parasite (a Boston fan) suggested #1 for #3 and the lakers pick, which was shot down in flames:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1561895&start=1500#start_here

After the trade was confirmed, Boston fans automatically assumed they would draft jackson, so the fans talked him up. Tatum was hardly discussed.

Fast forward a couple of months. Now, Ainge is a genius and clearly won the trade, and Fultz is a poor man's Jrue Holiday and Tatum has all team potential. 8-)

And apparently, if the recently suggested draft reform happened to take place in 2018, the Celtics would screw both the Sixers and Cavs (#35). viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1613393&start=20#start_here

Post #1384 » by **Sixerscan** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:56 pm

It's honestly mind blowing to me that some people swear that the plan was always to take Tatum. Literally the first thing Ainge did after finalizing the trade was get on a cross country flight to watch Jackson work out.

LloydFree · Post #1385 » by **LloydFree** » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:24 pm

The only thing good about that trade for the 76ers was the Celtics taking Tatum instead of Jackson.

76thBearCub · Post #1386 » by **76thBearCub** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:57 am

Sixerscan wrote:It's honestly mind blowing to me that some people swear that the plan was always to take Tatum. Literally the first thing Ainge did after finalizing the trade was get on a cross country flight to watch Jackson work out.

If only Hinkie knew how to play the media like Ainge does.

Mrcrockpots · Post #1387 » by **Mrcrockpots** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:49 am

Celtics fans live in a different reality. If the process works, and we're making playoff runs year in year out, I'm totally ok with making sure Sixers fans here get a swift kick in the ass for talking like they do.

europeanfan · Post #1388 » by **europeanfan** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:20 pm

Good write up on reddit : https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6zty8f/oc_why_markelle_fultz_is_the_perfect_modern_point/

Especially agree with this : "he is more of a natural point guard than people give him credit for".

Sixersftw · Post #1389 » by **Sixersftw** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:21 pm

europeanfan wrote:Good write up on reddit : https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6zty8f/oc_why_markelle_fultz_is_the_perfect_modern_point/

Especially agree with this : "he is more of a natural point guard than people give him credit for".

Excellent write up. This is largely everything I feel when assessing him as a prospect laid out more succinctly and cogently

spikeslovechild · Post #1390 » by **spikeslovechild** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:45 pm

Sixerscan wrote:It's honestly mind blowing to me that some people swear that the plan was always to take Tatum. Literally the first thing Ainge did after finalizing the trade was get on a cross country flight to watch Jackson work out.

The draft sort of screwed them over because had they just stayed in their lane and made the selection of Fultz they could have had George or Butler for pennies on the dollar but because they didn't select fultz they had to give up the BKN pick plus two assets for Irving AND had a huge glut at SF.

spikeslovechild · Post #1391 » by **spikeslovechild** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:51 pm

Unbreakable99 wrote:
sixers238 wrote:In 2015 it was Okafor > KAT (especially after SL), in 2016 it was Ingram > Simmons. It seems as though people prefer to go against the grain rather than accept the simple truth in order to look witty. The amount of love for Ball in this thread is insane. I can't believe how many of you still think he's a better prospect than Fultz, or even a tier above him. Fultz was unanimously the #1 prospect in this draft, and even Magic wanted to trade up for him. The fact is that prospects rated better by professional scouts usually turn out to be the better prospects. I cannot wait for Fultz to show how superior he is to Ball. The season needs to start already.

I doubt you will be abke to see that. Ball has always and most likely will be the superior prospect. I don't think Ball is on a differnt level though. I always thought Ball and Fultz and Jackson and a few others were on the same plain but I rated Ball and Jackson higher and you could argue guy's like DSJ and Fox were better too. Ball is just an awesome player. I love the way he plays. He wins. Fultz won 9 games at Washington. I bet if he and Ball switched teams Ball could have won at least 15 games at Washington and I doubt Fultz wins as many games at UCLA. That's what Ball does. He wins. He makes everyone around him better.

I love Ball so much that I now hate him because he's balling on the Lakers. Every good game he had in summer league made me furious because I wish he was on the Sixers doing that. This season I'm going to hope Ball doesn't play well for my own sanity lol. I just will regret seeing Ball ball out in LA instead of us. It hurts. We were right there at 1 to take the best player but we settled for Fultz instead. Smh.

Ball can't shoot and his great court vision and passing would be held back by simmons. It just wouldn't have worked. He also plays very poor defense.

Also when you talk balling out in summer league his shooting was atrocious and they don't even try. Lets see how their game translates to the NBA. For me the Sixers made the right pick.

LordCovington33 · Post #1392 » by **LordCovington33** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:09 pm

spikeslovechild wrote:
Unbreakable99 wrote:
sixers238 wrote:In 2015 it was Okafor > KAT (especially after SL), in 2016 it was Ingram > Simmons. It seems as though people prefer to go against the grain rather than accept the simple truth in order to look witty. The amount of love for Ball in this thread is insane. I can't believe how many of you still think he's a better prospect than Fultz, or even a tier above him. Fultz was unanimously the #1 prospect in this draft, and even Magic wanted to trade up for him. The fact is that prospects rated better by professional scouts usually turn out to be the better prospects. I cannot wait for Fultz to show how superior he is to Ball. The season needs to start already.

I doubt you will be abke to see that. Ball has always and most likely will be the superior prospect. I don't think Ball is on a differnt level though. I always thought Ball and Fultz and Jackson and a few others were on the same plain but I rated Ball and Jackson higher and you could argue guy's like DSJ and Fox were better too. Ball is just an awesome player. I love the way he plays. He wins. Fultz won 9 games at Washington. I bet if he and Ball switched teams Ball could have won at least 15 games at Washington and I doubt Fultz wins as many games at UCLA. That's what Ball does. He wins. He makes everyone around him better.

I love Ball so much that I now hate him because he's balling on the Lakers. Every good game he had in summer league made me furious because I wish he was on the Sixers doing that. This season I'm going to hope Ball doesn't play well for my own sanity lol. I just will regret seeing Ball ball out in LA instead of us. It hurts. We were right there at 1 to take the best player but we settled for Fultz instead. Smh.

Ball can't shoot and his great court vision and passing would be held back by simmons. It just wouldn't have worked. He also plays very poor defense.

Also when you talk balling out in summer league his shooting was atrocious and they don't even try. Lets see how their game translates to the NBA. For me the Sixers made the right pick.

He also doesn't want to be here. Why risk him taking the QO and going back to LA in a few years?

Unbreakable99 · Post #1393 » by **Unbreakable99** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:29 pm

simmbiid wrote:
spikeslovechild wrote:
Unbreakable99 wrote:
I doubt you will be abke to see that. Ball has always and most likely will be the superior prospect. I don't think Ball is on a differnt level though. I always thought Ball and Fultz and Jackson and a few others were on the same plain but I rated Ball and Jackson higher and you could argue guy's like DSJ and Fox were better too. Ball is just an awesome player. I love the way he plays. He wins. Fultz won 9 games at Washington. I bet if he and Ball switched teams Ball could have won at least 15 games at Washington and I doubt Fultz wins as many games at UCLA. That's what Ball does. He wins. He makes everyone around him better.

I love Ball so much that I now hate him because he's balling on the Lakers. Every good game he had in summer league made me furious because I wish he was on the Sixers doing that. This season I'm going to hope Ball doesn't play well for my own sanity lol. I just will regret seeing Ball ball out in LA instead of us. It hurts. We were right there at 1 to take the best player but we settled for Fultz instead. Smh.

Ball can't shoot and his great court vision and passing would be held back by simmons. It just wouldn't have worked. He also plays very poor defense.

Also when you talk balling out in summer league his shooting was atrocious and they don't even try. Lets see how their game translates to the NBA. For me the Sixers made the right pick.

He also doesn't want to be here. Why risk him taking the QO and going back to LA in a few years?

Steph Curry also didn't want to be in Golden St. I don't care who wants to play for the Sixers. If you are in position to draft a great player like Ball you do it. Porzingis didn't want to be here. Guess what if we drafted him he's still here. He can't leave until he's a FA. I don't worry about who wants to be here or not. Players have no say in a team drafting them.

Sixersftw · Post #1394 » by **Sixersftw** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:57 pm

Unbreakable is right, it doesn't matter if a player wants to be here or not. History shows you should draft them regardless if you believe in them as a player. Obviously, we did not when it comes to Ball, a decision I agree with.

HotelVitale · Post #1395 » by **HotelVitale** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:26 pm

simmbiid wrote: He also doesn't want to be here. Why risk him taking the QO and going back to LA in a few years?

Fun fact: No one that a team has wanted to retain has ever taken the QO. The only guys that have taken it were players who were pretty good but wanted max-ish money and the team didn't want to offer it. Not to say that Ball couldn't do it--there's a first for everything--but it would be a major risk and a direct loss of many millions of dollars. (I also think that, in general, people on here greatly overestimate the importance to players about where they play, maybe because of the weird internet bball gossip culture that's spring up; players generally follow the money or go to good situations for them, and there aren't many if any guys in their young years or early prime who force their way to a particular city or state while sacrificing other things).

JojoSlimbiid · Post #1396 » by **JojoSlimbiid** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:10 pm

europeanfan wrote:Good write up on reddit : https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6zty8f/oc_why_markelle_fultz_is_the_perfect_modern_point/

Especially agree with this : "he is more of a natural point guard than people give him credit for".

at making a positive Fultz post. In this thread lol :crazy:

Chris76 · Post #1397 » by **Chris76** » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:36 am

JojoSlimbiid wrote:
europeanfan wrote:Good write up on reddit : https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6zty8f/oc_why_markelle_fultz_is_the_perfect_modern_point/

Especially agree with this : "he is more of a natural point guard than people give him credit for".

at making a positive Fultz post. In this thread lol

It's amazing how young players usually don't win.

Fultz and Simmons are different, they should excel with their talent.

spikeslovechild · Post #1398 » by **spikeslovechild** » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:32 pm

Chris76 wrote:A good debate, who is better?

Fultz + Simmons or Ball + Simmons?

With PnR, Fultz has the advantage. He can quickly pull up or drive past a big on a switch.

With Ball's funky release, he may have trouble getting contested shots off.

Also, Simmons and Ball have great vision and passing, whereas Fultz is a very good shooter. Fultz would fit better with Simmons.

He had problems getting his shot off in college.

Captain_Caveman · Post #1399 » by **Captain_Caveman** » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:36 pm

spikeslovechild wrote:
Sixerscan wrote:It's honestly mind blowing to me that some people swear that the plan was always to take Tatum. Literally the first thing Ainge did after finalizing the trade was get on a cross country flight to watch Jackson work out.

The draft sort of screwed them over because had they just stayed in their lane and made the selection of Fultz they could have had George or Butler for pennies on the dollar but because they didn't select fultz they had to give up the BKN pick plus two assets for Irving AND had a huge glut at SF.

You forgot the part about getting Gordon Hayward for free, which is sort of a big thing in that equation.

No idea why the Pacers took less for George. They ended up with about 1/3rd of what we offered them at the deadline, but so be it. We couldn't go higher because he wouldn't promise to resign next summer. It is what is is. As for Butler, they too ended up with far less than we had been offering them in recent years, but all good. Not a huge fan of what they got for him, but least they didn't get smacked like Indy did. In both cases, it worked out much, much better for Boston than it did for the teams that tried to get too much for the star players we tried to trade for.

Captain_Caveman · Post #1400 » by **Captain_Caveman** » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:47 pm

Mrcrockpots wrote:Celtics fans live in a different reality. If the process works, and we're making playoff runs year in year out, I'm totally ok with making sure Sixers fans here get a swift kick in the ass for talking like they do.

No hate for the Sixers or your process, but let's look at the track record here for Boston fans. For like 17 years now, Boston's teams and players almost always end up much better than even their own fans claim they will be. And usually much, much better. Not only with star players like Pierce, Papi, Brady or IT, but even the more secondary guys like Tony Allen, Rondo, Edelman, McCourty, Pedroia, etc etc etc... I could go on and on and on. Even last year's #1 seeded ECF team exceeded the expectations of nearly all Celtic fans.

So of course we are going to go in on people who told us that our teams and players sucked. Shoot, if the Sixers make the Finals this year, wouldn't you?

No one in Boston is confused about what a championship team or a good player looks like. We aren't overselling on guys like Fab Melo, Jared Sullinger or Olynyk, just because they are wearing our team's jersey.

Simply put, years and years of reality, and nearly all evidence stands in direct opposition to any claim that we are delusional in any way. That's fact, and not opinion.

As to the Fultz trade, not a zero sum game to me. Sixers don't have to "lose" the trade for Boston to "win" it. It's OK for it to work out for both teams. It was basically a 2-for-1 deal, and maybe Fultz will end up the best prospect out of it. Or not. Was generally considered to be a draft that was pretty flat at the top with 5-6 guys who were good but not great prospects. Not at all the same thing as trading down in a LeBron or Duncan draft, or even a Simmons draft that got sketchy after the top 2. Sixers already had too many young players and no backcourt, so it makes perfect sense on your end. And if Boston ends up with a free top 5 pick just for taking a different player than Fultz #1 this summer, that's pretty good value for them as well.

I know that Ainge has far and away the best track record of all GMs when it comes to making trades, and hasn't made a bad one since like 2004 or so. He routinely murders opposing teams in deals. Again... that's fact, and not opinion. I also know that the last time we traded down from #1 to #3, we ended with with Parish and McHale, so not worried here.

Good luck with Fultz. Very nice prospect who can do some things. Got to envision him in green for a few months, and was just thinking the other day about how Kyrie is who I wanted him to become someday.