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2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers

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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#41 » by humanrefutation » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:21 pm

ampd wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
tydett wrote:
The obvious answer is to hire people who have those disabilities to portray they characters - but studios just want to pretend they care about these people enough to market a show with a representation of them rather than actually demonstrate that care.


Oh, absolutely. And this is not unique to depictions of people with disabilities. It happens to people of various ethnic groups as well. They have to do better.


I think this is a more complicated subject than it gets credit for most of the time.

A show could easily be patronizing, stereotypical, and poorly written even if its actors with disabilities all actually have those disabilities when they aren't acting. There are many examples that already exist in cinema of characters that were well written and portrayed excellently by actors that didn't share their characters disabilities off screen. We're talking about art, and it's easy to conceive of a hypothetical where an actor without a particular disability might do a better job portraying a character with one than an actor with that same disability, because it's acting and they're playing characters, often fictional ones, not (usually) themselves, and simply sharing some characteristics with a fictional character doesn't necessarily make you a better choice to act as that character in a movie. This is why we (usually) don't see NASCAR drivers playing the lead in movies about racing, because acting in a movie and racing a car are different skills.

For the past 50+ years Hollywood has basically drawn the line at blackface, and in recent times people have rightfully pointed out that this prohibition doesn't seem to extend to other racial and ethnic groups, the controversy over Scarlett Johansson playing the lead in Ghost in the Shell, a pretty explicitly Japanese character being an example.

The reason for this is pretty obvious, which is to say that casting actors for parts in movies has been pretty much done on the basis of whether casting that actor for a particular part will upend the audience's ability to stay immersed in the movie. White actors in blackface ruins the suspension of disbelief, but often different ethnic groups playing characters of different races doesn't. Or to use an uncontroversial example, we don't mind when a blonde dies her hair brunette to play a dark haired character.

In general I think the actor who will play a character best aught to get the part. If having similar real life characteristics to the character they intend to play allows them to bring some insight or other qualities to their performance that renders them better at the job than their potential competitors without that real life experience, they should get the part. If not, then they shouldn't, and for the same reason we wouldn't necessarily say that a real life police officer would have been better in "Die Hard" than Bruce Willis.

I don't pretend to have an easy answer as to where the boundary between fairness and exploitation is, and I do think there have been plenty of examples in the past of Hollywood absolutely disrespecting people in many ways, but I don't think simply requiring actors to match their characters ostensible phenotypic characteristics 1:1 will necessarily produce the outcome you seem to want.


A couple points:

1. I do not believe that someone could faithfully depict someone of a different ethnic identity or disability without having the personal experience that underlines that identity. You can certainly attempt to offer a faithful depiction, but you're ultimately going to rely on stereotypes of that identity rather than the nuance that comes with the lived experience.

You might consider that simply a part of "acting." And you'd be right to a degree. But while acting as a fictional character or depicting a historical figure only implicates that specific individual, depicting an identity has broader implications for societal perceptions of people of that identity group. When Will Ferrell plays Ricky Bobby, people aren't going to judge all race car drivers based on Will Ferrell. When Daniel-Day Lewis portrays Lincoln, people are not going to judge all white people based on his depiction of Lincoln. But we have tangible evidence that society draws conclusions and fosters biases about people of certain underprivileged identities based on their depictions on camera. Yes, writing is a significant part of that narrative. However, using people who depict identities based on stereotypes only enables them to be considered the norm by society at large.

2. But even if you don't find that concerning for whatever disheartening reason, the consequence of using individuals who don't have the lived experience of the identity they're portraying is that you're blocking those people with that lived experience from having opportunities to present their authentic experiences on camera. In essence, you're allowing an individual to exploit the lived experience of a particular identity group for their personal gain at the expense of that group. I can't tell you how many times I've seen non-Arabs portray Arab individuals in the media. Or non-East Asians portray East Asian characters. I can't help but think of the individuals who are within those identity groups who are denied those jobs. You can't tell me that there are not qualified people in those identity groups who can do the jobs well. The problem is that the studios are more interested in revenue from using major celebrities (Scarlett Johannson, Emma Stone) than authenticity.
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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#42 » by Triple 7 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:43 pm

humanrefutation wrote:
Oh, absolutely. And this is not unique to depictions of people with disabilities. It happens to people of various ethnic groups as well. They have to do better.



Tom Cruise as The Last Samurai springs to mind...
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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#43 » by KidA24 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:51 pm

Triple 7 wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
Oh, absolutely. And this is not unique to depictions of people with disabilities. It happens to people of various ethnic groups as well. They have to do better.



Tom Cruise as The Last Samurai springs to mind...


I mean....

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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#44 » by FrieAaron » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:28 pm

KidA24 wrote:
Triple 7 wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
Oh, absolutely. And this is not unique to depictions of people with disabilities. It happens to people of various ethnic groups as well. They have to do better.



Tom Cruise as The Last Samurai springs to mind...


I mean....



Though there are far too few Hollywood films being made with minority leads, and that's especially true of Asian leads, I'm pretty sure this is kind of the reverse - a Chinese production that cast a Hollywood actor to hopefully make more money in outside of China.
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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#45 » by El Duderino » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:58 pm

bizarro wrote:Just saw 'Come Hell or High Water" for the first time. God damn that's a damn good Hollywood film. Just extremely well done. Jeff bridges is just a phenomenal crumudgeony Southern accented character - was fabulous in 'True Grit' and was fabulous in this.

Edit: If I'm being honest, he'll always be 'The Dude' to me...but damn he's just a great actor that ages like a fine wine.


I loved Come Hell or High Water. Saw in in the theater and watched it again with a friend.

I just wish Hollywood made a lot more movies like that instead of spewing out one comics superhero flick after another, the endless amount of lame action films with zero plot, and/or plot-less films which are only a vehicle to spend 90 minutes showing off CGI.

FWIW, I'm not saying there should be no space for popcorn films thin on a plot and dialogue, but when i see trailer commercials on TV for the majority of those type movies, they look like carbon copies of man that movie is going to suck. Then once in awhile i'll go see one because people i know are going and except for rare instances, the movie is crap.
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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#46 » by El Duderino » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:09 am

Triple 7 wrote:
humanrefutation wrote:
Oh, absolutely. And this is not unique to depictions of people with disabilities. It happens to people of various ethnic groups as well. They have to do better.



Tom Cruise as The Last Samurai springs to mind...


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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#47 » by chonestown » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:04 am

Dammit, Harry Dean Stanton just died. Paris, Texas looms large for yr boy.
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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#48 » by thomchatt3rton » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:14 am

chonestown wrote:Dammit, Harry Dean Stanton just died. Paris, Texas looms large for yr boy.


Sh*t
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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#49 » by emunney » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:15 am

Most underrecognized actor of all time.
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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#50 » by ReasonablySober » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:27 am

Two episodes in and American Vandal is hilarious so far.
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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#51 » by blazza18 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:37 am

Is that the dick tag one?
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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#52 » by ReasonablySober » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:44 am

blazza18 wrote:Is that the dick tag one?


Yup.
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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#53 » by thomchatt3rton » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:41 am

chonestown wrote:Dammit, Harry Dean Stanton just died. Paris, Texas looms large for yr boy.


Very unfair to his career, but I'll always think of him as Diane Ladd's crazy sad-sack sap of a husband in "Wild at Heart".




Pretty funny when he stops yipping and answers the phone though.
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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#54 » by El Duderino » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:08 am

chonestown wrote:Dammit, Harry Dean Stanton just died. Paris, Texas looms large for yr boy.


He was in one of my favorite movies of my teen years, Repo Man. I'd party with a group of friends back then and we must have watched it 7-8 times.

I saw this interview of him some time ago where he is asked about his role in Repo Man and his views on life in general. It was an interesting watch.

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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#55 » by ReasonablySober » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:47 am

ReasonablySober wrote:Two episodes in and American Vandal is hilarious so far.


Ended up watching all four hours. I was more invested in this than Making a Murder or Serial. Just had to find out who did the dicks.
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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#56 » by ampd » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:18 am

humanrefutation wrote:A couple points:

1. I do not believe that someone could faithfully depict someone of a different ethnic identity or disability without having the personal experience that underlines that identity. You can certainly attempt to offer a faithful depiction, but you're ultimately going to rely on stereotypes of that identity rather than the nuance that comes with the lived experience.


Again I am somewhat sympathetic to this point of view, but I think it's dramatically oversimplified. There are numerous examples of actors who have consulted with people of shared background with their characters in order to provide more authenticity to their performance. I believe it's plainly false to claim not having a particular identity either forces an actor to rely on stereotypes (or any other sort of bad information) or somehow cheapens the experiences of people who really live those experiences or audiences who watch the performance.

Part of cinema is the implicit understanding by the audience that while their experience may be evocative, it can never be complete.

This is much easier to see when you remove the controversy of ethnicity. Even if you use the example of "underprivileged" people, if you make a movie about a garbage man and you don't hire an actual garbage man to play the part, very few people would argue that you've somehow wronged or shortchanged the lived experience of the world's garbage men in any meaningful way. Watching movies about being a truck driver will never give the audience the fully authentic experience of being a truck driver, regardless of who plays the trucker, because of the limitations of the medium (short of actually living as a truck driver, it's not possible).

What you are really doing here is offering up ethnicity, "disabilities", and likely an array of other categories for special pleading. While I am again sympathetic to the idea that some "identities" may be more difficult or impossible to depict faithfully or authentically in the context of a movie without lived experience, I don't believe it's a necessity in all cases, and it's something that would need to be demonstrated not just simply claimed.

humanrefutation wrote:You might consider that simply a part of "acting." And you'd be right to a degree. But while acting as a fictional character or depicting a historical figure only implicates that specific individual, depicting an identity has broader implications for societal perceptions of people of that identity group. When Will Ferrell plays Ricky Bobby, people aren't going to judge all race car drivers based on Will Ferrell. When Daniel-Day Lewis portrays Lincoln, people are not going to judge all white people based on his depiction of Lincoln. But we have tangible evidence that society draws conclusions and fosters biases about people of certain underprivileged identities based on their depictions on camera.


You seem to be saying either that (presumably negative) stereotypes can only be reinforced when those stereotypes are related to "underprivileged" identities (whatever that means), or that it's only important when negative stereotypes are reinforced about people with "underprivileged" identities. I find the former to be patently absurd (it's trivially easy to come up with negative stereotypes about clearly privileged people) and the latter to be at best highly hypocritical and at worst foolishly arrogant (you aren't in any special position to decide who matters and who doesn't).

By what criteria can we judge which people's lives are sacred enough to only be depicted by people of the same "lived experiences" and which aren't? Further, there is the question of how far down this rabbit hole we actually go. After all, while it may be possible to find a qualified Arab actor to play an english speaking part in a Hollywood movie, it is easy to see how it would be difficult to find one that has the lived experiences of a suicide bomber from Gaza. It's also not clear how sharing an ethnicity with a suicide bomber would give some special meaningful insight into suicide bombing.

My point all along has been that to decide which categories are important to an actor playing a role "authentically" and which aren't is more complicated and difficult than simply broadly generalizing and using the word privilege, and trying to do it this way doesn't work unless we first agree on a whole host of ideas and assumptions that are much less obviously accurate.

For example, most lead actors in Hollywood movies are millionaires far removed from the life experiences of the people they are meant to portray. When Denzel played a dirty cop in training day that couldn't have been farther from his actual "lived experience", regardless of his ethnicity. When Dev Patel played the lead in Slum Dog Millionaire, he shared an ethnicity with the characters from the book, but his actual "lived experience" couldn't have been more different from the character he portrayed. When you implicitly claim that the only lived experience that matters is phenotypic (ie skin color, disability), aren't you actually cheapening the real struggles of people who have actually lived those experiences in your attempt at solidarity?

humanrefutation wrote:the consequence of using individuals who don't have the lived experience of the identity they're portraying is that you're blocking those people with that lived experience from having opportunities to present their authentic experiences on camera. In essence, you're allowing an individual to exploit the lived experience of a particular identity group for their personal gain at the expense of that group. I can't tell you how many times I've seen non-Arabs portray Arab individuals in the media. Or non-East Asians portray East Asian characters. I can't help but think of the individuals who are within those identity groups who are denied those jobs. You can't tell me that there are not qualified people in those identity groups who can do the jobs well. The problem is that the studios are more interested in revenue from using major celebrities (Scarlett Johannson, Emma Stone) than authenticity.


To paraphrase, you seem to be arguing that what matters isn't the content of their characters, but rather the color of their skin. I disagree.

I don't think it's obvious at all to what extent any of these criteria matter or could be applied in practical situations beyond the most trivially obvious ones. If a studio wants to shoot a scene in California that is supposed to be set in Ireland in the context of the movie, are they obligated to find only Irish american extras, or even only real Irish extras? If the movie is set on a farm do they need to be Irish farmers? If it's set in China are all Asians OK or do they only need to find Chinese extras? Does an American extra of German descent in the first example somehow cheapen the lived experience of actual Irish people modern or historical? Does a Korean extra in the second example somehow cheapen the lived experiences of actual Chinese people?

I don't think it's meaningful or productive to divide people into broadly defined categories like ethnicity, disability, etc and then claim they all have the same "lived experiences". I'd even go as far as to say that the idea that all people of a similar ethnicity meaningfully share a "lived experience" is skating perilously close to the worst sorts of stereotyping that this whole thing seems intended to counteract.

In any case please don't take this as an attempt to defend examples of obvious negative stereotyping like say, Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's. It's not. I just find there to be a huge gulf between that and say, banning studios from casting Patrick Stewart as Professor X because he doesn't need a wheelchair in real life.
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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#57 » by midranger » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:47 pm

Did someone ask for stereotypes of privleged people.

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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#58 » by hege53190 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:26 pm

El Duderino wrote:
bizarro wrote:Just saw 'Come Hell or High Water" for the first time. God damn that's a damn good Hollywood film. Just extremely well done. Jeff bridges is just a phenomenal crumudgeony Southern accented character - was fabulous in 'True Grit' and was fabulous in this.

Edit: If I'm being honest, he'll always be 'The Dude' to me...but damn he's just a great actor that ages like a fine wine.


I loved Come Hell or High Water. Saw in in the theater and watched it again with a friend.

I just wish Hollywood made a lot more movies like that instead of spewing out one comics superhero flick after another, the endless amount of lame action films with zero plot, and/or plot-less films which are only a vehicle to spend 90 minutes showing off CGI.

FWIW, I'm not saying there should be no space for popcorn films thin on a plot and dialogue, but when i see trailer commercials on TV for the majority of those type movies, they look like carbon copies of man that movie is going to suck. Then once in awhile i'll go see one because people i know are going and except for rare instances, the movie is crap.


1.) Come Hell or High Water was awesome.

2.) I also didn't see it in the theater which is a huge problem for movie studios. Because although even if they make a really good one off film, it is really difficult to get people in the theater to see it.
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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#59 » by ReasonablySober » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:24 pm

I saw it in the theater (twice, actually). I got great reviews and has two of the bigger names in Hollywood. I think in this instance you gotta own up to just not doing a little research.
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Re: 2017 TV/Movie/Book Thread with Spoilers 

Post#60 » by MickeyDavis » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:51 pm

Loved Repo Man.
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